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water supply for camp

Started by sbishop, April 26, 2006, 06:41:48 PM

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sbishop

hi, i'm almost ready to install the water supply for my camp but I thought I would ask a question..

The spring is about 1000 feet from the camp and approx 180' up the hill. i'm going to install a 45 gallon plastic in the ground and was wondering what size pipe I should run?

any suggestions, thanks in advance!

SBishop

Furby

Don't know, but I'd think real hard about adding a turbine if ya have a little flow.
Might as well get electric too while ya at it. ;)

sbishop

you have any info/web links to any small turbine?

Thanks

Sbishop

Furby

Hmmm.....
Not off hand.... but it's been talked about here before and there were some links then I think.
Gotta try and remember some of those threads.

Gary_C

If you are saying the camp is 180 feet in elevation above the well, that will take 78 psi pressure just to push the water up hill to the camp.

The size of pipe is determined by how much flow you need. Most homes could be served with a 3/4 inch pipe but 1 inch would work better for 1000 ft.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

sbishop

Gary_c....the opposite  ;D the camp is at the base of the hill...spring is up the hill!!!

Sbishop

Mooseherder

We are facing the same situation except our water source is about 300 feet  below the camp. Your source being up the hill I would think is better as you have gravity working for you. If your source is running, your golden. Do a google search for a water lift. There is something you can apply with a water wheel, providing you have a running source.

Ron Scott

Gravity feed with a 3/4" pipe from the water tank on the hill above the camp.
~Ron

thecfarm

Seems like I remember reading somewhere,start out with a big line and keep making it smaller as you go down the hill.Can't remember sizes or anything.Seems like this helped out on water pressure being gravity fed or something.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

J.J

I REMBER GROWING UP WE HAD  ASPRING WITH 1/2 INCH BLACK HOSE WENT  TO A
OLD TUB THEN HAD A PIMP TO PUMP IT  PAIN IN WINTER HOSE WOULD FREEZE HAD TO BRING HOSE IN AT NIGHT THAW OUT THEN DO IT ALL OVER IN MORNIN TUB AND PUMP WAS INSIDEN WHERE IT WAS WARM 

                             I LIKE THE WELL NOW

scsmith42

Thecfarm - you are correct.  The issue is that over distance the friction inside the pipe reduces the water volume.  Therfore, you have a tradeoff between gallons per minute (gpm) and pressure.

SBishop, if I have my calculations correct, based on Ron's recommendations it would work out as follows:

Gross psi:  180' head x .433 psi/ft = 77.94 psi gross at bottom.

3/4" pvc  schedule 40 pipe is rated for 8 gallons per minute flow.

Friction loss:  at 8 gpm, 3/4" pipe has a psi loss of 5.14psi  per 100'.  Therefore, 1000' of pipe with a gross psi of 77.94 (based on 180' head) will have a net psi at the bottom end of 26.54psi at 8pgm.  This is a little bit lower than what most people would want for a home, but should be sufficient for a camp.

Running the calculations for 1" pipe would be as follows:

1" schedule 40 pvc is rated for 13 GPM.

Friction loss at 12GPM (I don't have a chart for 13gpm, so I rounded it down): pressure loss is 3.56psi per 100'.  Therefore, 1000 of 1" pipe with a gross psi of 77.94 (based on 180' head) will have a net psi at the bottom end of 42.34 psi at 12pgm.

Hope this helps.  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Onthesauk

I garden with water from a spring.  Collect it in a 100+ gal stock tank and run it in 3/4 inch black poly pipe approx 350 down the hill to the garden, about a 75 foot drop in elevation.  I hand water with enough pressure to spray 10 to 15 feet with a nozzle.  I've used this system for three years now, works well except the spring pretty much dries up late summer, early fall.
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

Don_Papenburg

Scsmith ,  Would the pressure loss on a down hill be less than a horizontal or uphill flow ?  We do have gravity helping here.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

Gary_C

Sbishop

Yes, I read that too fast. Downhill will work much better.  ;D

You will have 78 psi at the camp with the water off. A 3/4 line will be plenty big, but be careful where the end is located. If the pipe breaks or a fitting comes loose while you are gone you will have a camp full of water.   :o

Don Papenburg

There are two reasons for the pressure change in the pipe. The first is the change in height or elevation and it is plus or minus 0.4335 psi per foot of elevation change. The second is a pressure loss only when there is flow in the pipe so it is always a minus. So when the flow is up hill, both are losses and when it is downhill, the elevation is a gain and the flow causes a loss.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

sbishop

Wow, Thanks guys for all the info!

I think the 3/4" is plenty for my camp..I will drop down to 1/2" when I hit the camp!

will post some pics when completed and let you know if I have a firehose or a garden hose  :D

Sbishop

scsmith42

As usual, a lot of good feedback from a lot of FF members.

I've got a couple of additional comments.

The friction calculations that I ran are based on a straight run of pipe.  Each elbow that is inline will further reduce the pressure.  What you'll probably find is that when you open up a spigot you have an initial burst of high pressure, and then it tapers off significantly if it's wide open.

If you ever have a need for more pressure / volume at the camp - or more consistency, simply plumb in a large pressure tank at the camp (such as a Welltrol, etc) with a bladder in it.  The water in the tank will augment the water flow from the main feed pipe, and it really makes a difference.  By "large", I'm referring to a 120 gallon tank or so.

Bacteria, etc may build up inside the feed pipe if it's not used much.  You might want to add a set of valves at the water source that will let you shut off the source and open up an air vent, and drain the line when you're away from the camp for an extended period of time.

Good luck and post pics!

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

johncinquo

I gotta relay a story that cracks me up every time I think about it.

My grandparents live out in the desert in Arizona.  The water tower for the subdivsion they live in is about 200 yards away and maybe 150 ft higher than their house.  When I see their water bill, I am always glad I have a well, and I live in a wetter place!   My grandad goes out for his walk and sees that the water tower leaks.  He calls it in to the company and they tell him they are aware, and that it is not fixable.   He sees a couple work guys out there one day and he chats them up and asks about the leak.  They told him they would have to drain the whole tank, shutting off water to all the people out there for several days, then dry it out to fix it, and fill it back up, and it was not cost effective for the company to fix it.  He mentions about the wasted water, and one guy cracks well he is welcome to it all he wants, and offers him a 5 gallon bucket.  Now he's no dummy, thats for sure.  he goes and buys a great big funnel, attaches enough garden hose to reach the house, drives a stake into the ground, attaches the funnel to the stake under the leak, kicks some gravel and sand over the hose, and heads home.  They have now lived there since 1996.  They have beautiful citrus trees, some shade trees, shrubs, and a small garden my gramma adores.   People drive by and are amazed that someone would put so much time and $ into growing plants in the desert.   Why it must cost a fortune just to keep it all watered!   Ha ha, if only they knew. 
To be one, Ask one
Masons and Shriners

sbishop

One last question!

having taking in so much advice, here is my plan

I will start off with 100' of 1 1/4", then 200' of 1", then 300' of 3/4" and the last 400' of 1/2"

now does this seem right? with the last 400' being 1/2" am I going to loose pressure? or what I have above will not do any good/will it help?

Thanks for all the help!
Sbishop

Onthesauk

We're it me, I'd simply do the whole run in 3/4 or 1 inch.  I'm just not certain that it makes that much difference trying to step it down and certainly not if you go all the way down to 1/2 inch.
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

Qweaver

I'm going to capture the water off of our steel roofs to supply the water for our cabin.  Between the roof on my shed and the cabin I should never have to worry about water.  I'm mounting two 1500 tanks.  One will be high enough to gravity feed the house and the other I'll pump to the high tank as needed. 
Quinton
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

scsmith42

sbishop, I would personally not go the route that you propose.

Based on what you proposed, the calculations work out to you having a flow rate of 4 gpm at 30psi at the bottom of the run.  The greatest negative impact is the 1/2" at the end of the line.  It has less than 1/2 of the rated flow capacity than 3/4".

If you use larger size pipe at the upper ends of your run, you will reduce the friction and improve both your flow rate as well as your full-flow psi.  There is a tradeoff here though... , when you use pipe that is too large for the anticipated volume the low flow volume will not prevent the buildup of slime or bacterial growth inside the pipe.  The magic number is to keep a flow volume of at least 2' per second of water flow throug the line.  For 1" pipe, 2' per second of water means an average volume of 6gpm, for 3/4" pipe - 3gpm.  On the other hand, if you drain your feedline when you're not at the camp, this should be a non-issue.

I ran some numbers based on 200' of 1-14", followed by 300' of 1", followed by 500' of 3/4".  This would provide a flow of 8gpm and 35psi at the bottom.  Not quite as good a flow as all 1" all the way. 

Check your pipe prices and see what gives you the best balance between cost and flow.  Again, I'd personally stay away from the 1/2" in your feed line - too much friction loss and it will slow down the flow too much in the larger portions of the pipe.  If it were me, I'd run either 3/4"or 1" all the way and not worry about it.

Good luck.  Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

sbishop

Thanks scott, you pretty much answered all my questions..I can get 3/4" for .35cent/per foot... 3/4" it is!

THANKS

Sbishop

Bro. Noble

I would consider a reservoir near your camp with an overflow.  The reservoir would give you constant pressure and you could use a larger line from there to your camp.  By having an overflow,  the water would remain fresh.  You could chlorinate it when you leave to keep down bacteria.  This was pretty common in the Ozarks before REA.  If the spring was downhill,  you used a 'ram'.

Dad looked into hooking a generator to a turbine in the late 40's .  He found out that it takes lots of water flow to be practical.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

toxedo_2000

Hi
I have the same kind of installation at my remote camp. 225' water head. 1400' long pipe, 1 1/2" inch diameter.
Make electricity with it. Have also water, plenty of water in the camp at 45 PSI (I use a pressure regulator). I installed a filter too to make drinkable water.
all the details on this tread:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=15929.0

I'll suggest the biggest pipe you could install because it gives the better dynamic pressure. Reason: the friction is lower. At the end of the pipe, you'll install a nozell of a small diameter to increase the dynamic pressure. There is no reason to chain together different long lenght of smaller pipe diameter. That will just diminish the over all pressure.

If you flow is poor, bacteries and other bugs and algues will form inside the pipe like cholesterol.

During winter, I let the water running through the pipe without restriction.
Good luck
Toxedo
Toxedo
Why walk when you can fly

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