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Vermont firewood $$$$$$

Started by Sawyerfortyish, October 05, 2004, 07:55:13 PM

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Barkman

I think this is what is called "developing a market."  I'm more than impressed, I'm in awe!  If you don't mind sharing a few trade secrets firewood guy, could you explain a little bit about your operation? ???  I'm sure there are some interesting details of how you got into this particular niche of the wood business.

Sawyerfortyish

Seven months ago when I started this thread I thought 200.00 a cord was robery without a gun. I have to say in keeping up with the times I sold wood this winter for  that  :o. With fuel going up wood will probably pass the 200.00 mark this comming year. I guess you should get what the market will bear in your area. I was forced to raise my prices in passing along expences and I had gotten so busy I couldn't keep up so I raised the price in hopes of some business going elsewhere. I still couldn't keep up and sold out.

beenthere

Makes sense to me, what one charges for fuelwood. Not any different, IMO, than the oil companies and their 'price' for fuel. As long as we keep buying it at that price, it will continue to be 'available' at that price. I say let the market determine the price (doesn't mean I like it  :) ). 
Much the same as what was in the 'beam' thread and the 'pet rock' comment.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Barkman

I sold every stick I had last fall for $210/cord (seasoned, cut, split, and delivered).  I was out by mid-November.  Maybe I should have asked for more?  ???  I keep close track of what other people in my area are selling for and there was one big operation that went to $250 in their newspaper ad in December and January.  I occasionally see someone in my area advertising for way below market price and I always wonder if they just don't know the market price or if they are some sort of backward socialist that thinks that wood shouldn't ever cost that much.  I work hard for the wood I produce, so I wouldn't apologize for getting every penny the market will bear for it.  I guess I still haven't figured out how to do this as well as firewood guy though. ;)

SwampDonkey

barkman, that brings to mind some experience with guiding my grandfather went through. He was used to getting $50 or $60 a day as a guide back in the 70's and when the new outfitters came on in the 80's they started charging $250/day. He thought that was outrageous and kept old prices for the next 25 years at 70's rates. He had all kinds of business, but he never got rich off it by a long shot. He was retired then anyway and had a pension, so it didn't really dawn on him as he was getting a cheque every month anyway. He always had money when he needed it, but he didn't stash a whole lot away.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

firewoodguy

Quote from: Barkman on April 10, 2006, 12:39:05 PM
I think this is what is called "developing a market."  I'm more than impressed, I'm in awe!  If you don't mind sharing a few trade secrets firewood guy, could you explain a little bit about your operation? ???  I'm sure there are some interesting details of how you got into this particular niche of the wood business.

Hi Barkman, I guess it boils down to offering quality, quanity and service and be compensated for what you do.  I guess I owe all of my sucess in my firewood business to Commissioner Taylor and his staff. Because, if it wasn't for them, I'll still be selling firewood for $175.00 per cord. I was told by some state official, that there is money in firewood if you do it right, and they are right. I have read that any violations pertaining to selling firewood in NH is a (criminal act)up to $3,000.00 fines and community service for first time offender. Maybe, thats why all the firewood dealers closed their doors back in the mid 90's. Furthermore, for third time offenses is a criminal charge. So, it makes you wonder if its really worth it and or getting out of it. I know even if you do it right, like this happen to me back in 10/22/98. I sold a stacked 1/4 cord to a person in Nashua,NH. I believe for $175.00.I got a call a few days later from the customer and he stated that he called Nashua W&M to verify the measurement was correct or not. Take in mind that the firewood was stacked in the back of the delivery truck at the time of sale/delivery (16"x92" x 38"). Anyway, The Nashua Inspector Mr Marguis claims there was 5 cu ft short. So me as being a good fellow, I delivered another 10-13 cu ft. And wouldn't you know it, I was charged with a violation of $250.00, even when I correct the consumer complaint, I still had to pay a fine.  But thats all history, But when you read publications from the NHDeptW&M claiming that consumers should contact the firewood dealer if they felt they have been short changed........ and if the dealer won't correct the problem, ... file a complaint with the NH/DW&M dept and they will follow and correct the problem. That maybe so, but bare in mind, there is still a heafty fine at the end for the firewood dealers. So, In all, I have been doing this method of sale since 1996 and I haven't had any comsumer complaints that I didn't correct. So, I guess my best advice is there is no trade secrets, Just comply with regulations and offer good quality,quanity and service and of course, be compensated for what you do. Lets face it, who wants to be charged with criminal activities whether you correct a consumer complaint of not. So, thats why my hat is off to the Commissioner Taylor and staff. If it wasn't for them, I may not be in this"niche of business" or maybe I'd still be selling (170 cu ft)loose thrown cord measurements for $150.00 cord in this region. Don't take no chances, its not worth it, not in this state anyway.

PS. I failed to mention, that $3,000 violation fine a firewood dealer recieved in NH few years back, The interesting point is that, I heard that the consumer made a check out for the full amount at the time of delivery for one cord and then called the bank and stopped payment on the check, shortly thereafter. Technically speaking or legally,there was no sale or no monies transfered for the cord of firewood, but the state DW&M still proceeded to prosecuted the case and the consumer got a free load of firewood out of it. Only in New Hampshire !! Live free of die !!

Firewoodguy
Firewoodguy

Ed_K

 It seems you just can't please the consumer all the time. I got short changed & one customer never did pay for one load of log length. I stoped the split & deliever last winter, and was up to $175. when the wood was gone. When I first started doing cordwood I was getting $75. per cord. Now I get that on the landing and only handle it once  8). Cides theres are lot of wanabes getting into firewood for a quick $ right now.
Ed K

Barkman

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 10, 2006, 04:04:04 PM
barkman, that brings to mind some experience with guiding my grandfather went through. He was used to getting $50 or $60 a day as a guide back in the 70's and when the new outfitters came on in the 80's they started charging $250/day. He thought that was outrageous and kept old prices for the next 25 years at 70's rates. He had all kinds of business, but he never got rich off it by a long shot. He was retired then anyway and had a pension, so it didn't really dawn on him as he was getting a cheque every month anyway. He always had money when he needed it, but he didn't stash a whole lot away.

SD,

I hear what you're saying.  I know a lot of those who remember the good old days, when fuel and everything else was a lot cheaper, don't see a reason why things should change.  I guess I just missed out on the good old days. :)  Figures, I always seem to be late to the party. :(

Black_Bear

Let me tell ya a little bit about the Northeast Kingdom.

As long as the out-of-staters continue to flock to our little corner of the world and are willing to pay exorbitant prices for just about anything they desire then the price will remain inflated. Let me also tell ya that the pulp market isn't a preferred market up here. In other words, many local cutters would rather send their wood to the firewood processor than truck it as pulp to Ticonderoga, NY, Rumford, ME, or the soon to be closed Berlin, NH mill. Roadside prices aren't very good for pulp because of the long hauls.

A former classmate of mine just bought a processor and plans on doing a good business. He studied the market and was able to jump in when oil prices and the cost of hauling pulp to the mill are high. Firewood is a way of life in the Kingdom and most of the suppliers are savvy businessmen. They might not have a high school diploma, but they know how to count money and they know what they can charge and still sell their product.

I'd say willingness-to-pay trumps supply and demand here. Tourism is a leading industry in VT, especially in the northeast, and most businessmen take advantage of that. It's no different than paying $14 for a reuben sandwich in NYC or $7 for a chintzy hamburger at Roy Rogers on the NJ Turnpike. Willingness to pay. 

Corley5

I sold 300 16" face cords from Dec 20 05 till March 15 06 at 60 bucks a cord 8) 8).  I was lucky to be able to find that much seasoned wood.  It worked for me.  I'd rather sell 180 cubic foot thrown cords and dump them at the customers and tell them if it does stack up short to call and I'll make up the difference, no one has ever called.  That way I can get back and process another load and I don't spend a bunch of time stacking wood in the trailer wearing out my back and arms.  My time is better spent processing wood.  The whole idea is to minimize the work involved which means handling it as little as possible and when handling is necessary it's done with a machine.   
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

solodan

Lodgepole goes for about $250/cord out here,oak about $300,Almond about $200, Propane $2.29/Gal. .I go through 5-7 cords a year at my place and still run the propane a bit. I'm glad I don't have to buy my wood. ;)

SwampDonkey

black_bear. Here the preferred market is pulpwood because we are so handy to alot of markets. You can't hardly even get a logger to bring you treelength firwood because they are getting away from self loader trucks. I prefer 100 " if I'm going to be bucking it. Last year the going price in my area was $180-220 per cord for firewood all processed. Now down near the capital I've heard of folks getting $360/cord. Cheaper to burn oil when ya factor the handling.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Black_Bear

SwampDonkey, the Maine/New Brunswick pulp markets are definitely different than the Vermont/NH market. This has become more evident as Groveton Paperboard and now Berlin are either out of business or will shortly be out of business. The problem is, and it was mentioned earlier, is that many short-timers are getting into the game and flooding the firewood market. Most people up home are loyal to their long time supplier though.
Vermont does not really have the laws (actually the laws are hard to enforce) to protect the consumer that NH and Maine have.

A logger friend is currently selling one cord of green hardwood (harvested the same week it is delivered) for $150, blocked and split. He pays the landowner $22.50/cord and the trucker gets $40/cord to deliver the wood tree-length to his processing yard. He then blocks and splits and delivers with his F-350 ton truck that has a dump body. Basically, he is grossing $87.50/cord, but then he has to factor in harvest costs and truck costs, plus pay himself a wage for blocking and splitting, which he does with a chainsaw and mechanical woodsplitter. It takes him about 1.5-2 hours to block and split and load one cord. He is putting up as much firewood as he can this summer with the hopes that he can get $250-$300/cord for that seasoned wood next year. 

Ever Green

Anyone know what Firewood is going for in Cape Cod?  Are they buying a "face" cord or cord.  I know here near Buffalo people are buying "face cords". 
Vince

jrb34

It's worth remembering that up here in Maine, northern New Hampshire, Vermont, and rural upstate New York, a far greater percentage of homeowners heat mostly or exclusively with wood than in, say New Jersey or Pennsylvania. More than half the houses in our town heat at least partly with wood, and for a good many that's all the the heat they have. Market forces being what they are: more demand equals higher prices. Even at $225 a cord (16-inch dryish split), firewood is still cheaper than oil. Coal doesn't enter into the home-heating equation up here, as near as I can tell. Pelleted wood is very popular, though, especially for folks who work out--by which I mean have jobs outside their homes and who can't feed the stove when its snowin' and blowin'.

Right now, the same tree sold for hardwood pulp brings less than the same tree fitted and dried six months for the firewood market, and with mills shutting down left and right and trucking costs accelerating, the retail firewood market is increasingly attractive, especially to small operators (there are some pinheads doing this, but they don't last long). There's an auxiliary market supplying "camp" wood--shrink-wrapped bundles of edgings and softwood slabs that people who heat their homes with wood would reject out of hand--but I don't think it's more than a sideline, a way to make a bit of money out of what might otherwise be disposed of as trash, or chipped for livestock bedding or pulp.
JRB

Mooseherder

We have an Invasive species to South Florida we call Australian Pine.  I don't know what the scientific name is. It is a very dense hardwood that is almost impossible to split with a Big axe.  It grows everywhere down here. Most woodlots, sides of roadways, especially the Florida Turnpike and on home lots.  It has a very shallow root system that will not hold a 50-60 tree during high winds. You could probably get at least a cord of wood per tree with all the branches on it.  Luckily during the past couple years the 2 we have in our yard didn't blow over. (We kinda like them) I cut a few of the lower branches as they were sweeping too low to the ground and use for recreation fires we have in an old truck rim out back.  I heard the building depts. will not issue any new permits for building lots until these trees are removed from the property, not sure if this is true. My thoughts were, send some rail cars down for this free wood. It burns hot, don't smoke when dry and lasts all night. I guess freight costs probably wouldn't make it worth while. Although we see hundreds of rails cars full of sand heading north everyday.

Ever Green

Was just in Ellicottville NY....saw bundles at Quality Market going for $5.99(1.3cu/ft).  They were shrinked wrapped and made local.   Just saw this and thought I "wood" throw it out there for your discussions...for those of you that don't know "e-ville"...it's a great little ski town with a HUGE canadian following...so the market is there...
Vince

johncinquo

Greg you arent going to have time to cut up any cedar this summer, you better be busy all the time just cutting firewood for next year! 

I got money saying prices are going to JUMP next fall.  Everywhere I look I see people looking for wood, stacking up wood, and jumping in the wood business.  Ive asked a few, and nobody plans on coming down in price because so many are going to start selling.   

I wish I had more time, I'd cut and sell more than the few loads I do.  I cut more for the fun of it, and have been selling it "in town" at a premium price .  I have to drive into town to work anyway, so theres really no delivery cost for me.  $235 a full cord, dumped.  Last year I did it for $190 and thought I was doing great.  If I didnt have my real job, I'd stay out in the woods all day. 

Talked to a guy out cutting apple trees down near me.  They cut out the old, large trees and plant dwarfs to get more bushels per acre.  Yakked him up a bit and he tells me what he is getting....   $250 a FACE cord!  I said he must be happy with that and he just pointed at the brand new, F350, turbo diesel, with a dump bed and said "could be worse". 
To be one, Ask one
Masons and Shriners

jon12345

Here firewood is around 50-60 a facecord so that isn't bad compared to some of the prices posted.  At this rate we will be paying/gettin $4-500 a cord before too long, gotta keep up with the cost of doing business ya know ???

  In the mean time I'm goin to check on splitter prices and firewood log prices, If I order now it will be well seasoned by the time it hits 350/cd  :)
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

I'll bet some folks in Va will burn more wood. I couldn't figure out why so many woodlot owners down there couldn't do some timber improvement ona  small scale and obtain some firewood. Everyone was using those dang heat pumps. Maybe there is regulations against the wood smoke in some of those towns. I have no idea. If so, I think I'de be moving. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sawguy21

Lots of standing burnt pine available around here from a fire three years ago but the firewood market is not strong. Wood burning appliances are not allowed due to particulate concerns although the older ones are grandfathered. Camp bundles are popular with tourists because of convenience and  transportation of firewwod in or out of the area is not allowed due to beetle infestation. I won't pay the gas station prices though.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

johnjbc

Quote from: sawguy21 on April 26, 2006, 09:31:00 AM
Wood burning appliances are not allowed due to particulate concerns although the older ones are grandfathered.
What is the population of British Columbia? Do you really have a pollution problem in your area?
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

sawguy21

I believe about 5 million and most of it is centred in the southwest corner around Vancouver where pollution is a serious issue. The rest of us live in narrow valleys with little wind so the smoke tends to hang. Beehive burners have been banned for years and that has definately helped.
Part of it though is the looney left in politics that this province is noted for. Whatever California does must also be good for B.C. except we must go one better. ::)
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

johnjbc

All the pictures you guys show are of Mountains, streams, and great big trees. And cutting roads through primitive mountain passes 8) 8)
And now you tell me you are hiding 5 million people in just one corner of your Province  ::)
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

Murf

Ontario is just about the same, it has about 12.5 million people, almost 40% of the population of the whole country, but the southern part of the Province has generally less than 10 people per square mile, in the northern part, it's probably less than 1 person per square mile.

The population of the greater Toronto area alone is about 5 million presently, so that's 40% of Ontario's population, and 16% of the whole country in just one city.  ::)
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

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