question on CDL licenses

[oakiemac]

I have always thought that as long as your combined trailer and truck don't weigh over 26000lbs and you don't have air brakes then you don't need a CDL.
I was just told by a freind who drives the big rigs and has all the endorsments and other goverment hoopla that I need one if the trailer is licensed to carry over 15000lbs even if total combined weight is under 26000lb. ???
Can anyone clarify this for me? I have read the CDL manual and I don't read what he is saying. :

[Sawyerfortyish]

I think he's right but I think the trailer weight is less than 15,000. I thought it was around 12000. I do know if the trailer is over a certain weight you must have a cdl class lic for a combo tractor and trailer.

[sawguy21]

That is the reg here. Trailers over 12000 lb require a class 3, class 1 if equipped with air. RV's are exempt. Would be hard to keep the combination weight under 26000 with a 15000 lb trailer. ;D

[Furby]

It's 10,001 for the trailer only if the GCWR is over 26,001.
Link to the manual:
CDL Manual

[oakiemac]

so if I'm under 26,000 then no CDL needed correct?

[Furby]

That's the way the manual reads!
I put the link up so others can take a look and give us their two cents. ;)

[oakiemac]

thats what I thought but those goverment documents give me a head ache just thinking about them. :

[Furby]

Try making a living while following them. :

[maple flats]

call the State troopers and ask the department that deals with this. DMV often gets it wrong! I speak from experience.

[Tom]

We've had this conversation several times on here.  I'm not up to searching for the threads right now, but I'll tell you that I've been detained.   I've not had a problem locally.  It's when I would have to travel out of my area.  I was detained in Kentucky and also in Mississippi.  Both weigh stations were at a State Line.

You are doing what I was doing.   You are thinking of what you weigh.  The book doesn't care what you weigh, it cares for what you might weigh.   It's the GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) that matters.  I have had a chauffer's license since I was 18 and converted that to the class D when CDL's came out.   I thought I was legal with my rig.  I wasn't, according to the book.

My truck weighs 10300  pounds.  I was safe.  My sawmill weighs 7500 pounds.   My total weight was  17800.  Heck that even would let me carry some fuel and tools and a little lumber to boot.

Nope!  Wrong!

My truck has a GVWR of 21500 and the sawmill a GVWR of 7500.  That's 29000 lbs, and well above the limit for a CDL.

There are some other little idosyncracies written in the book that complicate the issure too.  Not even the DOT guys are staying up with it.

Now they are doing away with the class D.  I don't know what that is going to mean.  the next time I get my license, it will be a Fla. Class E.  I think it should give me the same options I had before but can't find anyone who can really tell me.  

It's all a desk game.   The reason for the E license has something to do with requiring that one tons and 3/4 tons as well as many recreational vehicle drivers, be required to carry a CDL.  Now, like I said, I don't really understand.  But I do understand the GVWR requirement.  I stood in front of the desk for over an hour at both weigh stations, receiving a lecture and threats of financial ruin.  When I finally got out of Mississippi, I was lucky to have not had to sign away all three of my sons.

[sawguy21]

One of our drivers got hassled at the scales while pulling a flat deck trailer with a 1 ton. Inspector told him "annudder 400 kg and I would make you get a class 3"  Driver shrugged and left. CDL is required for a trailer over 4800kg regardless of GCVW.

[Furby]

Tom's got a point, it's what your vehicle and trailer are rated for, not actual weight.
In the link I posted, read the section: "Who needs a CDL?" and read the definition of GVWR and GCWR.

[oakiemac]

Hmm, good point Tom. I need to find out what the GVWR of my F-350 is and trailers.

[getoverit]

Tom is right:

Here is some text from the Florida CDL handbook:

You must have a CDL to operate:
Any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.
A trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds if the gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is 26,001 pounds or more.
A vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers (including the driver).
Any size vehicle that is used in the transportation of any material that requires hazardous materials placards or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR 73.

[Furby]

Same as MI but ours is 10,001.

[johnjbc]

In Pa if the trailer is licensed for 10001 or more you need a CDL and must pay for a truck license of the GCVW. This is in addition to the 26,001 GCVWR requirements

My ¾ ton license ($153) is good up 9000 but because the truck is rated for 8,800 that is all I can haul.
My trailer is rated for 12,000 but I have it licensed for 10,000 ($12) so I can legally have a GCVW of 18,800

If I were to license my trailer for 12,000 ($27) then I would have to pay for a 20,800 ($355.50) license for my truck and have a CDL >:(

They give you a form to have an inspection station fill out to get a GCVW rating for a ¾ or 1 ton truck   MV-41 Application for a Correction of Vehicle Record.
My brother who owns an inspection station didn't know anything about where to get the numbers so I went back and they also gave me a copy of a memo explaining how to calculate the GCVW if it is unknown. In my case it comes down to 8,800 – 6,000 = 2,800 X 9 = 25,200 + 8,800 = 34,000   The license for this weight is $621 and I sure wouldn't want to be coming down any big hills with that behind my pickup truck

I have a Class A CDL with all endorsements. Triples, Air Breaks, and Hazmat. The next time I renew it, I either have to drop the hazmat or pay $150 for a security check  >:(  >:(  to keep it it, as well as pass the written test.

Note from the back of MV-77 Application for Farm Vehicle Plate.........

Farm vehicles cannot be used in other operations such as truck farming operations, logging, landscaping and transporting show horses.

[Sawyerfortyish]

I not only have to have a medical card but I have to submitt to random drug testing thats a real joke. The state don't want me to know when I'm to go for the drug test ahead of time and my partner my brother isn't supposed to know either. Since we don't have a secretary they send notice to my mom and she tells me when to go. The biggest joke about this is if I where on all kinds drugs what are they gonna do. Call me up and tell me to fire myself or suspend my job. HA Fat chance. If you don't have a drug testing program the fine is several thousand $$$$ so you have play there game no matter how stupid it is.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Even if you are an owner operator you must be enrolled in a drug testing program in this state. They do come around and check. One local business got a huge fine for not having a drug testing program. He didn't know and they don't want to hear it.
I don't think the testing itself is stupid. Just the way they go about getting an owner to get tested without him knowing when. I have a class A CDL only to drive my log truck on occasion. When I need to move logs from a logging job to my mill. If I tested positive for drugs what are they really going to do to me. I don't drive my truck everyday I run a sawmill.  I don't do drugs and don't want to find out what they think they can do. I'm told that the drug testing program is desighned for large companies not small partnerships here. We just have to go threw the motions like everyone else.

[sprucebunny]

I got stopped by the New Hampshire DOT the other day when I was driving my F450 dump truck.  He implied that I needed Federal numbers on the truck, CDL (which I have), medical card, etc.

The GVW is 15,000 and I had no trailer. He said I would keep getting stopped unless I put "Not for Hire" on the doors. I still don't really understand but since 99.9%  of the truck use is for my own entertainment, I guess I'll be buying some letters.

I think they are trying to regulate more of the commercial trucks and that weight is not all they are looking at.

[isawlogs]

 What does   CDL   stand for ...  ??? 

[sawguy21]

What does   CDL   stand for ...  ??? 

Commercial Drivers's Licence. I am surprised Joan needs one for the F450. I don't  unless the truck GVW is over 13500kg  or the trailer is over 4800. If it is on air I do need one regardless of GVW.

[sprucebunny]

I read some of that Federal page and still don't understand. Might help if they used plain English instead of refering to "Part such&such" :

I'm not involved in interstate anything. Not commercial. I'm happy to have my truck inspected an extra time each year : and have insurance on everything and beyond that, they should leave me alone.

If they want me to comply with something, someone needs to make it alot clearer what it is ???

I've had the CDL for 20+ years as I did a short stint of over-the-road .

[beenthere]

firewoodguy
Does NH also give courses on seasoned firewood and how to determine moisture content.  :

[sprucebunny]

I looked into it somemore and what I gathered is that any VEHICLE used commercially over 10,000 lbs is subject to the Federal rules on placarding and DOT#s but you don't need the CDL LICENCE untill the GVW is over 26,001. I might be wrong.

Motorhomes and stuff don't require either (?)

[Gary_C]

I think all the questions in that test lead you to the same answer. You need to look at the "Driver Qualification Rules" to determine if you need a CDL.

One exemption in the rules that most people ignore is that farmers and custom harvesters of crops are exempt from the CDL requirements. Since logs are considered crops, you may haul machinery, supplies, and logs from a harvesting operation with any vehicle and no CDL.

However, they change these rules almost daily and it seems every DOT enforcement person has their own interpretation. I once was ticketed under this exemption because I did not have a medical certificate, and when I protested, he told me to "tell it to the judge."   >:(

[Sawyerfortyish]

I've been running farm plates on my log truck for years. I've been told I that I'm in a extreamly grey area of law. but havn't been issued a ticket yet. My competition had farm plates on his truck but ran loads out of state and was ticketed and made to put commerical plates on his truck.

[sprucebunny]

Farm plates are my next step. Here, they are good in state for 150 miles.

[red]

sawyer

A  few years  ago  we  had looked into  Farmer Plates

and  the way  I read it you are fine.....  true it is a gray area

but you have a sawmill and a farm   as long  as you are with in

I believe 100 miles from your Farm  and hauling  materials for your farm

not  a trucking company  trying to  use farmer plates

[isawlogs]

 What constitutes a farm to get farm plates  ???

[red]

you know  cows  pigs  horses  corn 

and a guy in overalls

[isawlogs]

 :D :D :D

  Does a tree farm fall under the same as a regular farm is more what I was leaning to ...

[Mr Mom]

     What i understand is that you dont need a CDL to run from the field to the farm only no side trips. That is how i read it.
     
      To get farm plates you have to make so much money from the farm. I think that is how it is done in ohio. I dont rember it was a long time ago when i looked in to it. I dont think how much land you have matters but i could be wrong.

      Just my to cents.

     I just found out that if i want to keep my hazmat endorsment i have to get finger printed and fill out some paperwork and spend $94.00 >:( >:( >:(.

     Thanks Alot MrMom.

[Murf]

Marcel, I don't know how different it is in QC than here, but we have to have sales in excess of $8,000 in a "normal production year" and they do not count things like trees, lumber or firewood as "farm products" as being part of your production.

If you register and then fall below the production limit you have to give them up, if you don't and they catch you they get very..... excited.  :

[beenthere]

Likely the rules for getting farm plates vary for each state. The commercial plate owners are the ones likely to complain about the farm plates, as the commercial rates are much more expensive, at least in Wisconsin.

Farm plates I believe are issued to those claiming over 50% of their income is from the farm. At one time, the state troopers were driving through parking lots in Madison, and ticketing vehicles with farm plates with the idea they were being used to drive an employee to work (many in the State Office parking lots received tickets).  Now I don't think they pay much attention, as long as there is some manure under the wheel wells, and some fuel cans and a pitchfork in the back. 
Don't get caught hauling materials to your cabin for a weekend of fishing. Might get you a ticket.

[Murf]

BT, Ontario (and in fact most of Cannuckistan) has some interesting regs. on the use of farm plates.

Here, a farm plated vehicle can be "used to transport farm produce, supplies or farm equipment to or from a farm or is used for the farmer's personal transportation and is not being used for-hire.".

So a farmer can drive a farm plated vehicle as personal transportation, say to a job in the city, and that's ok, but if they get $20 for hauling a neighbours cow to the auction along with their own animals that's illegal.  :

Clear as mud.

[johnjbc]

The rules for Pa are on the back of the form



Application for Farm Vehicle Registration Plate or for Farm Vehicle Two Year Certificate of Exemption

http://www.dot10.state.pa.us/pdotforms/mv_forms/mv-77.pdf



Hazardous Materials Endorsement Application for Security Threat Assessment

http://www.dot10.state.pa.us/pdotforms/dl_forms/dl-288.pdf

[Gary_C]

If this is not muddy enough already, the federal rules that are supposed to be adopted by all states do not require you to be a farmer to be exempt. Custom harvesters and farmers are specifically included and since the US Forest Service is part of the US Dept of Ag, loggers should be exempt. Also, your "home" is where you are harvesting, so the limit on miles should start there and do not end at state lines.

The reality is the rules are not about what is right or what the federal rules say, as one DOT Inspector told me "it's about MONEY!" The states will use whatever rules they wish to use to make the most money.

A good example is in Minnesota, 3/4 ton pickups are by law licensed only as passenger vehicles. No truck plates are allowed, (they can cost hundreds of dollars more than truck plates.)  However there are no weight limits on passenger vehicles so you can technically load them till the tires are flat on the ground or pull a 24,000 lb trailer and not be required to even stop for scales.  ;D  Just don't try it or you will be trying to convince the judge you are legal.

[Bob Smalser]

I've been running farm plates on my log truck for years. I've been told I that I'm in a extreamly grey area of law. but havn't been issued a ticket yet. My competition had farm plates on his truck but ran loads out of state and was ticketed and made to put commerical plates on his truck.

I let the cdl expire years ago, as renewing is too much of a PIA if you don't need it. And I don't.

Here a tree farm is a farm....there are no income requirements....and within the state you can drive a rig licensed up to 40,000lbs if you are the farmer and the rig has farm plates.  So can any member of your family or any of your employees.

CDL Exemptions

The law exempts three groups of drivers from the CDL:

Farmers transporting farm equipment, supplies, or products to or from a farm in a farm vehicle are exempted provided the farmer or a farm employee operates the vehicle. Products include Christmas trees or wood products transported by vehicles 40,000 pounds GVWR or less.

There is some gray areas...one paragraph says 40,000 and another says 42,000....but the DMV's here will  give you farm tags just on your sayso and there are also major insurance benefits to having farm plates.

I've been challenged in my favor a couple times.  But I'm legit with 60 or so acres of tree farm under my control....somebody obtaining farm plates with no farm might not fare as well.

Farm vehicles that don't haul logs that often can also get trip permits rather than pay annual weight fees:

New Farm Vehicle Trip Permit - Owners of farm vehicles can purchase a farm vehicle trip permit for a partial month instead of purchasing monthly gross weight.
$10 fee plus $4 subagent fee, if applicable. For information on conditions and restrictions regarding the farm vehicle trip permit, contact your local vehicle licensing office.
   
 

[isawlogs]

Murf

Its pretty much the same here .. there is a minimum money involved and the farming has to do with critters or feed for them .

[red]

since I was a wise guy before my  bad


this is for Code 31  state of N J  Farm plate

Special Conditions

Farmer means any person engaged in the commercial raising, growing, and producing of farm products on a farm of at least five acres in area and who does not buy farm products for resale.
Farm products include crops, live stock, and fur products.
Applicant must present an Agricultural Certificate obtained from county agricultural agent that will be returned to the applicant after the transaction is completed.
The expiration date is 11 months from the date of issue on initial transactions. All renewals are valid for 12 months.
Farm Truck may not engage in hauling for hire.

there seems to also be a code 51   and i am sure a few more

[Sawyerfortyish]

In NJ there are two types of farm plates. One is called farm use with that plate you can not be on the road after dark and you are limited to a 5 mile radius of the farm or inbetween two farms you use. Basicly this type of truck doesn't need lights brakes or even doors.Just ride and drive and try not to fall out or through the floor.The other type of farm plate is farmer and is subject to state inspection and is pretty much the same as a commerical truck. With some exemptions one being axle weight does not apply they are supposed to take GVW and thats what you must be under. With a tandom log truck thats a big +

[wiam]

In VT a farmer can go between his farm and fields he uses with no plates and no inspection.  Most in state do not know this including the police.

Will

[Tom]

Isn't  it  a coincidence that we, in our "Free" country,  talk so much about the things we are allowed to do, and very little about our lack of constraints?

[Gary_C]

Tom

It's kind of ironic that our state department is giving lessons on human rights and "our freedoms" to other nations while our government seems determined to restrict as many of our freedoms as they can.

And I am not so much worried about our elected representatives as I am about all the agencies and departments that have been delegated "rule making" authority. Seems like there is no end to the nonsense rules they can dream up to run our lives.

About two + years ago, I was at a meeting with the State DOT where they were going over the new load securement rules and a battle was raging over "crib trailers" that now required tiedowns. The DOT Inspector told the loggers that they should have complained during the "comment" period and the response was "we did, but they enacted the rules anyway."

This "rule making" is a real threat to our freedoms.

[bcraw98]

In Texas, you can get a class A or a class A CDL license. You only need the CDL class A if you haul for others and receive compensation. As long as I only haul my own produce and equipment, then all I need is the non CDL class A for a combined weight over 26,001 # , which costs $24 every six years to renew. The non CDL class A does restrict you to a 150 mile radius from the Ranch.

Recreational vehicles are exempt from a Class A or B CDL but do require a Class A or B license depending on the type of rig if they exceed the 26,001# rating.

Fire trucks and military vehicle drivers are exempt from the CDL requirements.

The Class A license is very easy to obtain according to my Dad, but I wouldn't know, I just drive  ;D

[Murf]

Fire trucks and military vehicle drivers are exempt from the CDL requirements.

Used to be that way here too, then they realized there was quite a few incidents involving fire trucks operated by non-CDL 'volunteers', so they required all drivers of fire trucks to have CDL's.

So many of the driver's were failing the tests horribly that the goobermint had to hire trainers and contract schools to train the drivers for free.  :

Let's see now, big heavy truck, driving fast through traffic, driver's only in the driver's seat 'cause he got to the fire station first even though he isn't trained to do it.  :

Yup, dat sounds like da goobermint...........  :D

[bcraw98]

I live far enough from the station that I'm seldom first, but if it can be ridden or driven, my class C and I can handle it.  ;D  Fixin to drive to Nacogdoches for my youngest girls regional UIL tennis meet, but I'll be under the weight and legal!!  8)  8) ur um unless I hurry.  28 years since my last ticket of any kind, other than a warning   :D  8)  8)

[scsmith42]

In North Carolina, trailers are not tagged according to weight - only the tow vehicles (non CDL).  I have a 26,000 lb rating on my F350 since I need to cover both the weight on the truck and the weight on the trailer. and thus far have not been hassled.  However, since my trailer is rated at 24,999lbs I don't know if a highway patrol officer will hassle me or not over not having a CDL.  Getting one is on my list of things to do this year though.

I also own and operate a farm, and have farm plates on the dually.  I think that you get about a 50% discount on the highway use tax that you pay initially, and the annual renewalls are lower.

Justfification of having a farm varies.  I have a state agricultural tax number and also have my land in the agrucultural and forestry land use program with the county.  The latter saves a lot of bucks on property taxes, and the former qualifies me for the 0% or 1% agrucultural tax rate on qualified purchases.

Having the ag tax number is the "open sesame" with respect to anything to do with the farm.  Show it to the licensing plate folks, the county property tax folks, the state highway patrol officer - all acknowledge it as substantiating your valid agricultural exemption.

In my county,  you have to have at least 20 acres of timberland to quality for the timber tax rate, and 10 acres in agricultural use to qualify for the ag exemption.  Ag can be commercial livestock or crop farming.  Acreage where your home and any buildings exist must be in addition to the 10/20 acre minimums.

One interesting tidbit that I just learned... NC allows you to buy a "permanent" tag for your trailer (is called a multi-year tag).  If you tag your trailers that way, then you are supposed to list them on your county property tax returns.  If you don't have a multi-year tag and pay an annual fee, then you don't because your taxes are collected as part of the annual renewall.

As I recall, the 10K DOT vehicle limit applies if you're going to cross state lines in a commercial vehicle.  You may not have to have a CDL, but you do need to have a DOT number in excess of 10K.

The regulations are confusing and inconsistent, to say the least.

[sandman2234]

Here is the rule book, subject to change of course!

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/

David from jax