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Feedroller problem with old planer ****photos added finally & eating more crow

Started by JimBuis, April 19, 2006, 08:41:50 PM

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JimBuis

I have a big, old, Japanese planer in my shop and the feed rollers are a problem.  The rollers are steel with a sort of corrugated surface running the length of the rollers.  When I feed a piece into the planer, the infeed roller doesn't grab hold of it until I push the stock into it very hard and for some distance.  Once the stock has about ten inches passed the roller, it feeds through the rest of the way okay.  However, each piece comes out with the first 8 inches or so thinner than the rest of the piece.  I am guessing that the rollers are slipping quite a lot on the infeed and outfeed so much so that the rollers are removing material from both ends of the stock.

Does anyone else have this problem with their old planers?  What are feedrollers manufactured out of nowadays?  Are they rubber or what?  Do you replace the rollers on one of these old planes?  If so, where do you get parts?

I would appreciate any brainstorming you guys can come up with.  I don't want to have to get rid of a good machine, but this problem is a pain in the tender hind parts.

Thanks,
Jim
In Tokyo
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Don P

It sounds like your not getting feed till the rears are grabbing?
Can you lighten up in the chipbreaker and see what happens?

beenthere

There may be some wear on the rollers, but I suspect more than anything, the infeed rollers, table, and head are not adjusted right. Shouldn't be doing what you describe. It is just a single, top-head planer, is that right?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Faron

In addition to checking the adjustment like has already been mentioned, are you waxing the bed ?  I use a paste furniture wax, I think Johnson's furniture wax.  Don't use car wax, as I believe it can cause the bed to rust.  Either that or traces of it can cause finish problems when you stain or seal, I forget which. ::)
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

getoverit

It sounds like your infeed roller isnt touching at all, and by pushing it 10 inches into the cut you are actually pushing it so far that the outfeed roller is grabbing it and taking it the rest of the way. I'm pretty sure this condition where the first few inches is thinner than the rest of the cut is called "snipe" and if you google "planer snipe" you will find a wealth of info on it.

I would still check the infeed roller and see if you can adjust it.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

JimBuis

Quote from: Don P on April 19, 2006, 08:56:59 PM
It sounds like your not getting feed till the rears are grabbing? Can you lighten up in the chipbreaker and see what happens?

It's not an issue with only the rears grabbing.  I have to push it hard into the infeed roller then it pulls it through.  The distance between the rollers is something like 15 inches.  I'll double check that measurment.

Quote from: beenthere on April 19, 2006, 08:58:23 PM
There may be some wear on the rollers, but I suspect more than anything, the infeed rollers, table, and head are not adjusted right. Shouldn't be doing what you describe. It is just a single, top-head planer, is that right?

That is correct.  It is a single, top-head planer.  I'll have to eduate myself on how to adjust this machine.  It was in the shop when I took over, so I've never done any adjustments on it.  I know historically previous shop teachers called in a contractor to replace the blades and do adjustments on it.  I may resort to that, but I'd rather not and instead do it myself.

Quote from: Faron on April 19, 2006, 10:37:47 PM
In addition to checking the adjustment like has already been mentioned, are you waxing the bed ? I use a paste furniture wax, I think Johnson's furniture wax. Don't use car wax, as I believe it can cause the bed to rust. Either that or traces of it can cause finish problems when you stain or seal, I forget which. ::)

I have not waxed the bed, but I probably should to see if that helps out this situation a bit as well as seeing what adjustments I might do on it.  I'll check on some of this stuff this afternoon.  I'll let you know what if anything I can figure out.

Quote from: getoverit on April 19, 2006, 11:06:28 PM
It sounds like your infeed roller isnt touching at all, and by pushing it 10 inches into the cut you are actually pushing it so far that the outfeed roller is grabbing it and taking it the rest of the way. I'm pretty sure this condition where the first few inches is thinner than the rest of the cut is called "snipe" and if you google "planer snipe" you will find a wealth of info on it.  I would still check the infeed roller and see if you can adjust it. 

I have read a whole lot about snipe and have experienced it as well.  However, this is not snipe.  There are no rough edges and no splintering at either end of a planed board.  As a matter of fact the thinner ends are not even readily visible.  You can feel it though and it is a smooth transition to these thinner ends.  Definitely not snipe.
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

jrokusek

Quote from: Faron on April 19, 2006, 10:37:47 PM
In addition to checking the adjustment like has already been mentioned, are you waxing the bed ?  I use a paste furniture wax, I think Johnson's furniture wax.  Don't use car wax, as I believe it can cause the bed to rust.  Either that or traces of it can cause finish problems when you stain or seal, I forget which. ::)

It is the cheap car wax that has silicone in it - that may give you a few problems.  Try some good car wax that contains carnuba and you shouldn't have a problem.  Waxing a planer bed really does help a lot.

Jim

isawlogs

 I would check the infeed roller for wear with a straight edge . Mine is doing the same and my infeed roller is du to be changed , it is a rubber type , it is now concave by 1/32'in the center , sometimes it will grab nice , sometimes you have to push it past the knives .

  Have you tried a narrow board close to the sides and see if it will grab .
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

JimBuis

FAMOUS SAYING:  Always keep your feet clean and rub them down with a bit of peppermint in the event you must "open mouth, insert foot" it will not be such an unpleasant experience! Let us just say that I neglected to apply the peppermint;D  It seems that the infeed and outfeed rollers on my planer are 7 1/2 inches from center to center apart.  This may confirm that the infeed roller is not pulling the stock in at all.

The planer handles stock up to 16 inches in width and 6 inches in thickness.

The infeed roller has a sort of corrugated surface, but the outfeed roller is smooth.  These rollers are on top of the stock.  Under the stock on both sides, there is a smooth roller that turns freely.  This means that the stock is being squeezed between one powered roller and a free wheeling roller on the infeed side and the same on the outfeed side.  Both feed rollers in fact turn when the machine is turned on.  The infeed roller looks rather shiny and did have a few scattered patches of sap and dust plugging the surface.  However, these patches were small and few.  I would say the roller was 95% clean.  I am in the process of cleaning these off.  I will also wax the feed table surface.

I think there must also be an adjustment issue with this thing.  I guess I will play with it and see what happens.

Thanks,
Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Cedarman

Also try adjusting your bottom roller on the infeed side.  Drop your deck down enough so that you can get a straight edge to set on the table.  Adjust the bottom roller up or down so that the straight edge will rock just a little bit.

Take some junk wood and experiment with raising and lowering this bottom roller.

Also look at the adjustment of the top feed roller.  Sometimes material can get under the blocks at the ends of the planer keeping the feed roller from lowering.  Also check the down pressure of the feed roller. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

ex-racer

Jim, I had the same problem with my 16" Makita. Both feed rollers were way out of adjustment.

The feed roller bearings are spring-loaded so that they can move up and down to accomodate variations in stock thickness.
During 20 years of use, a layer of wood dust/shavings had built up under the bearings, which altered the adjustment.

Cleaning that out, and adjusting the roller height down just enough to eliminate slipping with a good coat of wax on the bed fixed the problem.

Ed

JimBuis

On my machine, the rollers aren't spring loaded.  I have not yet determined if there is any provision for adjustment, but so far I don't think there is or if there is it is not readily identifiable.  I'll post some pictures of the machine as soon as I can.  The feed rollers are gear driven off of the shaft the cutting drum is mounted to.  The adjustment for material thickness is a crank that raises and lowers the feed table.  Don P. mentioned adjusting the chipbreaker.  There is an adjustment for that.  I'll try to spend some time on this thing in the morning and see what I can figure out.

I think I neglected to mention that this machine is a sort of combination machine.  It is a jointer/planer/table saw.  The cutters for the jointer and planer are mounted on the same shaft.  We have never used the table saw function and in fact do not even have a blade mounted on it.  If it had one, the blade would be mounted on the extreme end of the same shaft the cutters are on.

More to follow.

Thanks,
Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

beenthere

Drive roller not spring loaded?  What accounts for thick and thin?  Therein might be your problem in that the 'spring' behind the top feed roller (corregated) is not functioning. It may be the first thing that is causing you to have to push hard to get the piece started. I'd assume their is only one drive roller.

A pic or three would be great.   Also, by chance is there a manual for it?  Or a name plate and model number?  Japanese made?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Tom

I think you might be pleasingly amazed at what a few coats of Johnsons Paste floor wax will do for the feed problem.  It should be used regularly and frequently.  I was told that it could even be gobbed on as a lubricant on threads, etc to keep oil and silicones away from the wood.

The reason for the selection of a specific wax is that the Johnson's is a "true" wax (also written "trew") whose definition is that it is vegetable and originally from a tree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax

shopteacher

My planers have adjustable bed rollers and when planing rough cut I raise them to elevate the stock above the table and eliminate drag.  It's surprising how well it will feed once the rollers are raised compared to before where it wouldn't feed at all.  It will leave a snipe if they are left up once a smooth surface has been created.  The Grizzly I used to have had to have the rollers raised with an allen wrench. 
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

D._Frederick

Is there a "hold down bar" just at the back of the cutter head and in front of the out feed roll?  If this is too low, it will cause feeding problems also.

Don P

I'm curious, do you guys know the bed rollers as "billy rolls?"
We would do the same, jack them up for first pass and then drop them below the bed for final pass. I agree with the others, a can of johnson's wax is your friend. I use alcohol or ether to clean pitch off the billy's and feeds.

I was cleaning out the corrugated rolls on a shop machine with a pick one time. I was working an area and then bumping the switch to expose a new area. I had the suction tube off and the lid open for light. Unknown to me my new helper had walked up behind the machine and was picking junk off the cutterhead gibs with his fingernails. I reached up and bumped the switch and manicured him. Luckily just skin on his fingertips and he was very tender for awhile. He was DanG lucky and I felt terrible. I tend to spend alot more time looking around now.

JimBuis

I'll be taking the pictures this morning.  Keep in mind gents that this machine is in Tokyo, Japan and is true old, Japanese iron.  This is an industrial machine.  Specifications...........I can take a photo of the nomenclature plate for you, but unless you can read kanji (They are Chinese characters.) you won't be able to read it.  I will see if I can find the owners' manual for it.  If I can, I will see if I can get someone to translate it for me.

Thanks,
Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

JimBuis

Okay..........it seems that this thing has a whole bunch of adjustments on it and YES it does have a spring loaded mechanism on the infeed roller.  Boy........you'd think at my age that I'd have learned to keep my mouth shut. ;D ;D  Oh well!!! ::) ::)


Side view with the cover open.


Infeed side.


Infeed side with the top cover off.


Another shot of the infeed side.


A closeup of the infeed roller.

Thanks guys for your input.

Thanks to my big mouth, a little more humble than before,
Jim

Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

beenthere

JimBuis
If we all kept our mouth shut, this forum wouldn't exist, the way I see it .. and that's a fact  :)

Now back to the original dilema.....have you enough info now to work on adjusting this planer to get it to feed better? 

I have found it quite interesting, and we now have pictures........which was worth it in itself.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

getoverit

Nice looking machine. I can see where they used the top of the cutter to be both a jointer and the bottom to be a planer. Great idea!

I would still guess that there is something under the springs or guides that is keeping the infeed roller from lowering all the way down.

Don't worry about putting your foot in your mouth :) I've done it plenty of times on here and I'm beginning to get used to the taste of shoe leather ;D  Learning is what it is all about, and I appreciate all of the good info that I get on here from others.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Cedarman

Those of us that have never had the obvious pointed out when it was staring at us please stand up.  Oh, still sitting!!  Hey, it makes life fun.

JimBuis, asking the forum is like having several hundred people looking over your shoulder as you work on equipment.  At the end of the day, you will know more about that machine than you thought possible.  And so will we.  There is always something to pick up.  It was good for me to refresh some things I wasn't sure of.  Thanks.

I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Tom

Pictres are neat!

I'd never guessed that it  had a big Jointer on the side of it.

D._Frederick

The first thing to do is make sure that the feed rollers that are spring loaded move up and down freely. Use a block of wood and a pry bar to check each side. There should be adjustments for how far the roller extend down and adjustment for the amount of pressure on the roller.

Also check the hold-down bar if this planer has one, it should be adjusted a few thousands above the radius of the knives.

JimBuis

Quote from: Tom on April 21, 2006, 11:57:44 AM
Pictres are neat!

I'd never guessed that it had a big Jointer on the side of it.

Tom,
The jointer is on one side.....................the other side is a table saw!! :o



Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Faron

When you check for movement in the feed rollers, see if the pressure adjustments are extreme one way or the other, either real tight or loose. Reset about mid range for a starting point and wax the heck out of the bed.  I doubt if this is the problem, but make sure there isn't a key or pin sheared somewhere.  If it were, the roller might turn until it got under load, then slip. Feed a board through, and when it stalls look and see if the roller is actually turning.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

highpockets

Louisiana Country boy
homemade mill, 20 h.p. Honda & 4 h.p. for hydraulics.  8 hydraulic circuits, loads, clamps, rotates, etc.

getoverit

it might nake rice cakes... I dont think the japanese are into biscuits and gravy yet.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

JimBuis

No rice cakes and definitely no biscuits and gravy. ;D  We have so many Brits around here that some of the Japanese who do know the word biscuit think it is a cracker or cookie. :D

Okay, I guess it is time for an update.  I waxed the table.  I also adjusted a roller that raises the top cover containing the "chip breakers" as a board is being fed through.  If the infeed roller is pushed up by the board being fed into the planer, after the infeed roller goes up about 1/4" the top cover then is pushed up as well.  The chip breakers are spring loaded as well.  However, it seems that the chip breakers were not moving freely.  There are six of them mounted side by side so they rubbed against each other.  None of them would move without being pounded on.  I spent about half an hour pounding them back and forth with a block of wood and a dousing of WD40.  Sorry, no Rust Reaper. :(  They now work freely.  I cleaned the infeed roller.  I also changed the knives in the planer and jointer.

It now feeds without too much trouble.  The problem at both ends of each board is beginning now to look more like a snipe problem.  I think I'll try to adjust the spring tension on the infeed roller a bit and see what if any effect that has.

I am not willing to call it fixed yet, but it is certainly better now.  Previously, some of my high school students were not able to use the planer as they did not weigh enough to push a hardwood board hard enough to get it through the planer.  We were even having to use a push stick to get some of the shorter pieces through.  I was the only one with enough weight in his pockets to push a board through. ;D  Now, I can easily put a board through with one hand and no need for a push stick. 8)

Thank you one and all,
Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Tom


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