Sawing "Sinkers"

[Ron Scott]

Underwater Logs Ready For Milling. These logs were salvaged by "spearing" them from the Menominee River by Ernest Peters, Marinette, Wisconsin , circa 1950's.

[Noble_Ma]

Hey Ron is it tough on the blades to mill those sinkers?  I would imagine that every crack and hole is full of mud, silt, sand and all kinds of crap.  

[Ron Scott]

If they're washed down good with a water spray beforehand, they aren't too bad on the blades. At least those that I've had experience with. The bark is off most of them or comes off easily.

[Ron Scott]

White Pine "Sinker " Sawlog. Salvaged from the Menominee River on Michigan/Wisconsin border; circa 1950.

[woodmills1]

I was looking at the current guitar player magazine yesterday and saw an add for 400 year "old" guitar.  seems they are using old maple logs from under water to make the bodies of electric guitars and touting the old growth idea.  I think it was gibson but don't really remember.

[Ron Scott]

White Pine Boards Being Sawn From "Sinkers". Logs salvaged from the Menominee River along the Upper Michigan-Wisconsin border. Circa 1950.

[Noble_Ma]

Ok, I've been waiting for someone else to ask this question.  What makes the logs sink?  Is it a matter of how long it's in the water?  

[Fla._Deadheader]

Don't know about ALL sinkers,but, the pine and cypress here have growth rings that give a 40+ ring count to the inch of thickness. I would guess that there is not as much air cells in really tight grain logs and the denseness is what makes them sink. They didn't go to the bottom like lead, but, merely settled down before a line or cable could be attached??
  The current moves them about until enough sand anchors them in place. Then a flood will wash them out and move them again. That's what makes them hard to find.

[Ron Scott]

A good question as one would expect wood to float, but when a log reaches a negative buoyancy it sinks.

Logs sink when they are overloaded with pitch, sap, and moisture. When the weight of the log exceeds 62.4 pounds/cubic foot it reaches a negative buoyancy; it will then not float and becomes a "sinker."

Many of the "sinkers" were also the denser hardwood logs, particularly yellow birch and sugar maple here in the Lake States. As the logs became water soaked on the river drives, lake rafts and mill ponds etc. they sank leaving a trail of timber on the bottom.

[Weekend_Sawyer]

 I am amazed that these old logs can be salvaged and sawn.
How much is wasted to rot? How do you find these logs? Do divers go down for them or do you use remote camera equipment? How soon after you pull them up can they be sawn?

[Jeff]

Here is a pretty good website that answers a lot of questions.

http://www.timelesstimber.com/

[Fla._Deadheader]

OHH PI-SHAWWWW.  I'm going to go to work with them guys.

  Shoot fire, they get to SEE their logs and inspect them, even. Down here, if you sneeze inside yer mask, you can't even see that !!!  Down here, we get to crawl around on the bottom and FEEL AROUND and see if we can find logs.
  Mostly they are covered with sand, mud, silt and the occasional Gator or Snappin Turtle. Not to mention the 100 pound+ Catfishes, the crab traps that have been on the bottom for who knows how long. The many trotlines that will catch on yer dive gear and make you REALLY think about what yer next step will be, is always fun, when you can't see what it is that has you???

  How about all the trees with LIMBS that have fallen into the water for the past 100 or so years. They get yer attention when you wander into a tangle of them.

  A dive light works wonders , for about 1-2 feet of vis, IF you have an idea what it is you want to see. Sometimes it is something you'd rather NOT want to see. :D

   Then there is the bass boats doing 150 MPH on the hairpin turns that nearly run into yer work boat. Yelling and screaming works as good as fartin in a hurricane, trying to get these morons attention.

  And there is always the Flotilla of Blue hairs that come by and gather around you, asking, what are you doing??. This while you have 1 or 2 divers on the bottom, hooking a log and jerking the cable, so you can gun the engines to get in line with the log and start to raise it, having NO idea how long it is, while the wind blows sideways to the 4 knot current, and the "Crowd" can't imagine why you want them to "BACK OFF" !!!

  MAN DO WE HAVE FUN  :D :D :D :D :D :D

   Some of ya'll need to come on down and work with us fer a spell. Peas all around !! :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Jeff]

Now what you just described is what I wanted the pictures of!! DanG, anybody can take a picture of a trailer full of logs and say they used to be wet. ;)

[Fla._Deadheader]

My digital camera leaks???????????? :D :D :D

  
  Fergot to answer questions.

  There is usually not as much sapwood on the old growth logs. Sometimes the sapwood is still in very good condition, and can be sawn having heartwood showing with it. The sapwood is "spongy" and will deteriorate as it starts drying. That's why the tongs rip loose. On the Heart Cypress that we are getting, the sapwood is VERY thin and we have actually pulled logs loose that still had bark attached. The water stops the "decay" that most folks think takes place underwater.

  Also, the Old Growth Timber is VERY decay resistant. That's what makes it "special".

  It is best to saw it as soon as you can, after pulling it. The drying process is "tricky", so I have been told. End sealing is especially important.

[Jeff]

Some above the water line pictures will do just fine. ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK. Going up Friday. Will see what I can do. There's not much "dry" room on the boat and I sure don't want to get my camera wet.

  Reckon a ziplok bag will not leak??? :D :D :D

[Jeff]

Yer my hero.

[Ron Wenrich]

My charts say that wood like red oak weighs 64 lbs/cu ft when green.  Does that mean that they will sink when green?  

The other factor is that the specific gravity is 0.59 when green.  I thought things sank when the sp gr was at 1 or greater.

For rot to occur, you need food, water and oxygen.  You won't get rot 1 foot below the soil line.  In deep, cold water, the oxygen levels are too low.  Don't know about that Florida stuff, but rot resistance sounds right.  

[Fla._Deadheader]

Surely you know more about logs then I, but, I "think" the topic refers to old growth Heart Pine and Heart Cypress. I know that there were White Pine logs mentioned also, but, they too were old growth.

  As I stated before, the ring count is 40+ per inch of thickness of log. I would have to believe that the thin "cambium"? layer is the reason, because there would be less air space in the cells. They would be filled with sap and oils that make the old growth timber "special".
  Tom said he has sawn old growth. I will not challenge his statement, although I would like more info from him on how he got the logs to saw and where they came from. I gathered from his post that the ones he cut wre NOT from a river recovery??

  One other thing, I don't want to get into a peeing contest, but, I have a good friend in Costa Rica that gets all over my case when we discuss the "Weight" of gold ore and the "weight" of quartz specimens, as compared to other elements such as lead. I ask which is "heavier" and he howls about the "DENSENESS" of stuff NOT the weight. He is a retired Bio-chemist, and very well educated.

   I am sure that is where we are having our discussion differences. I don't know how else I might add to what has already been posted. I would be very interested in new info if someone comes up with a new theory.

[Tom]

Harold,

I've talked about some of the trees in past posts, hoping to awaken some sawyers to the whereabouts of good wood.  I hate to see all this stuff go to waste in a land fill.

Contrary to popular belief Florida hasn't been overpopulated forever.  Although started earlier, the big move began in the early 1900's and didn't start getting too far out of control until the 1960's.  There have been, and still are, "urban forests" of pristine pine. Time is not on their side though. I experienced several hundred acres of previously unmolested swamp being bulldozed at the intersection of I-295 and I-95 South of Jacksonville as recently as 8 months ago.  Much of the pine went to the mills, I'm sure, but I doubt that it went anywhere where the wood could be appreciated.  Paper mills grind it up and don't look at the log. Many of the workers that run their equipment recognize differences by "either it's pine or hardwood."  What kind of pine or what kind of hardwood never enters there mind and they don't seem to be interested in learning on their own.  I've taken loggers aside and explained some of he hardwoods to them. You would be amazed at how little they know and how anxious they are to learn if someone takes the initiative to tell them.

I was traveling 417 through Sanford and ran across several low places that were being bulldozed for intersections.  Most of the large pine had gone somewhere because there were a lot of stumps pushed up in windrows.  The majority of the windrows consisted of smaller pine, up to 10" and crooked, (could have been pulpwood if the time had been taken to harvest it), and many Sable Palms and hardwoods.

The Sable Palm, also called the Cabbage Palm, is a tree that is used to identify Florida. I think it is supposed to be protected because so many were being killed to harvest the heart.  The heart of the tree is the "cabbage" and it is boiled down to be eaten with other camp fare.  It is also used as "palm hearts" to be sold at a high dollar to restaurants who cater to clientele who have never seen a tree.

These trees(expensive stock to landscapers), probably several thousands of them, were awaiting the tub grinder.

The pine that is harvested from many of these areas is no different than the pine that people think no longer exists.  It is old, tight-grained, naturally seeded stock that has had to mature through a canopy of hardwoods that allows little light to penetrate.  They grow slowly, spindly and will reach the top of the canopy without being more than 6 or 8 inches in diameter at breast height.  Once they break through to the sun they begin to grow faster but are still stunted and the grain remains close. I have sawn these trees where the grain in the center was so tight that you couldn't count the rings. The rest of the tree would have a 20 or better ring count per inch.

Believe it or not, urban trees produce some of the finest wood I've ever seen. These are pines and hardwoods that have survived since before the homes were built and are being cut because of the mentality of the current home owners.  

It used to be that trees were left for beauty and homes were added to the site. After WWII it became common to completely clear a site, build tract homes and add the trees back.  These "added back" trees produce pretty, even-grained wood, but the old, saved trees may be the 'old growth' that is touted by marketers today.

Isn't it a shame that the Urban population wasn't educated to appreciate their trees.  They have driven nails and the such in the most valuable forest left today,

The production schedules of the big mills has decreased the value of Urban wood because the trees can't be harvested in large enough quantity.  Pulpwooders, like my friend "Eddy" who has the shortwood truck talked about in other threads here, have benefited until recently when the mills quit taking short wood and went to whole tree processing.  Now there is no one to follow the arborists who take down the "unwanted" trees and the pulp ends up in a landfill,ground into little bits, at a cost of $30 or $40 per ton.

What makes the trees that are recovered from rivers and swamp mud so valuable is the fact that it is uniquely harvested.  It has had someone spend some "Marketing" effort on it and it is something with which the general public can identify.  It is also in a quantity that makes it worth the effort and localized in a place where it can be found.

I have sawn recovered wood and, other than color and "set sap",  don't find much difference in it and some of the wood I've described.

Farmers who live on "hand-me-down" land generally have some of this wood that has grown in out-of-the-way places.  Some appreciate it because of its grain, some because of its clarity and strength and some because it grew on G-G-G- Granddaddy's home place.

Cypress was over-harvested in the past and remaining trees are being ground for mulch today.  Species of trees that were once important cabinet woods, Red Bay, Magnolia, etc.,  don't exist in "production' quantities anymore.  They are still available to the small businessman/sawmiller if the effort is expended.

WoodMizer wrote an article several years ago in their house organ that said "Milliion-board-foot-a-day" mills are having difficulty being fed timber and may not exist in the future.  We think the future is in smaller businesses and smaller mills that can be taken to the wood." (paraphrased from my memory)

They were talking more about the transportation of the wood to the mill than the availability of the wood.  A large mill sucks up all the resources around it faster than they can grow. "As much as one third of the cost of a board is in transportation",  they also said.

As brokers take advantage of small portable mills again, if they will, you will begin to see prettier wood on the market again.  You may even begin to see an effort to market wood by its quality rather than its quantity too.  I mean more so than you find in Hardwood grading for cabinetry today.  Softwoods have the same potential if interest in marketing them becomes fashionable.

The problem will be that the industry and governments will begin to create and enforce controls on the market rather than just educating it and letting it take care of itself.  

Like the "market" has evolved today, it will prohibit the use of the wood by eliminating the harvesters and processors who are unable to become certified by their larger co-horts. Big business will not allow little business to exist.  Governments cater to big business rather than the individual.  Control becomes stifling.  These are premises that are discussed continually by individuals who are trying to break into the Mega-market of wood processing and I tend to feel that there is much truth to it.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Very well written, Tom. I have to agree with everything you wrote. When I was a "pup", my Dad ran a small truck crane, digging cellars for houses, among other things. I have watched for hours, while he nearly tied knots in the cable, swinging the bucket around BIG oaks and such, so they could be saved. This was in the very early 50's.

  I remember the builders way back then, complaining about working around those trees. They finally found the power in govt. and became politicians and immediately passed regulations that allowed the land to be stripped and then re-planted. I remember very large oaks and cherrys that had no limbs for the first 40-50 feet. Usually, a hole was dozed somewhere out of the way of the cellar, and the trees were cut up and buried on the spot.

  The fishcamp we were at previously, before we moved, has some Pine's that 2 men can't reach around.

  Traditionally, long-leaf is the supposed source of the "Heart Pine" we salvage. There are many other species of Pine, and probably they are in the Heart Pine category also??

   Hardwood has it's quality and beauty, but, I have always been partial to Pine. I love to listen to the wind whistling through it's branches. It also has it's own quality and beauty.

  Cypress is totally new to me, but, seeing the growth rings brings you back to reality. The ancient forests must have been spectacular. I know I really enjoy the many photos posted by the members of this Forum, showing the old ways as well as the new.

[Ron Scott]

The moisture content of wood has a direct bearing on its weight, and moisture contents in excess of 100% are not at all unusual. When the weight of the wood exceeds that of water which is 62.4 pounds/cubic foot, it will sink.

Specfic gravity of wood relates to the "ovendry" weight of wood.

Most commercial woods of the United States , volume for volume, are lighter than water when "oven dry", i.e. they will float in water. This means that a cubic foot of dry wood must weigh less than 62.4 pounds, the weight of a cubic foot of water.

Specific gravity of wood =wt. of wood (oven dry)
                                      wt. of like volume of water

It doesn't take some of the dense hardwoods long to become 'sinkers', especially if rafting is attempted soon after "green" cutting without any drying time.

One needs to consider this if their log transportation is going to be by direct floating of the logs. There will be "sinkers" to be salvaged.

[Ron Scott]

Lumber Deck. Air drying lumber sawn from "sinkers". Circa 1950, Wisconsin.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Luv the pics, Ron. Also appreciate the info you provide. My info is VERY limited and I sometimes fear that it is also not always accurate.

  Man, this place is DEAD tonight !!!

[DanG]

Ditto, Deadhead! Ron is a well-spring of great info, and it is dead here tonight. There are lots of folks logged on, but I think they just fell asleep before they could log off.

Ain'tcha glad you did that diving last week, instead of waiting for this cold air?  S'posed to go to 25 tonite. I know that don't sound bad to most folks on here, but this is s'posed ta be FLARDER, fer cryin' out loud!

[DanG]

Come to think of it, I have a question about sinkers, myself. My son-in-law knows a guy that is pulling them out of the Appalachicola. He's gonna ask him about it, to see if we could buy a few from him. It has already been stated that they need to be sawn right away, but what's next? Can they be air dried for a while, or must they go straight into a kiln?

[Jeff]

25? brrrrrr :

Our lakes are now completely froze over. If it stays like this for a couple more days the stupid ice fishermen will be out. I like to wait till they say its safe for a car, then I will walk out.

[Kevin_H.]

we are not all asleep.

[Tom]

Generally air dry under a shelter first.  They are full of Water (duh-h) and unlike freshly sawn trees will dry very quickly creating a lot of enternal stress that cause cracking.  Don't dry so slow that they create a bed for fungus but don't put fans on them either.  Definitely don't let the sun cook them.

The sapwood will probably not be preserved good enough to good boards so don't be surprized if it turns to powder and falls off.

I wouldn't put any of it in a kiln until it had air dried sufficiantly to be stable and then not in a kiln where there was not any experience.  It is a special animal.

[Jeff]

Didja all know that turkey contains Melatinon a natural sedative? Thats why all the Thanksgiving naps!

[Tom]

We had a preacher once that must have been full of it too.  After the sermon, nobody would get up and leave.  They were all asleep. :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

DanG Ron. Look what we started!! Now they's commin outa the woodwork !! :D :D :D :D

  Fergot to add; going back to the river tomorrow. Have to unload the logs from the boat and get gas and put the tanks back on board. Move the compressor back down to the landing site and TRY to blow the sunken roots and muck out of the lagoon we use. DanG stuff plugs up the intakes on the motors!!!

   DanG, if the guys don't sell to Goodwin, you may get the logs for a buck a foot or so. That was the best offer I got when I went huntin a new buyer last week???

[Ron Scott]

The sooner one can have the "sinkers" sawn after salvage from the water the better. You will usually loose a foot off the ends of each log due end checking and damage due to their having been beaten around from bumping, water and sand action, etc over their years of drifting and being submerged in their underwater environment.

We use to coat the ends with ethlyne glycole, just plain old antifreeze,  to protect them from end checking. New products such as Ancohorseal should now work well for this.

Then air dry the lumber for a time as stated by Tom to let it condition slowly before rapid kiln drying. It needs to adjust slowly for equilibrium with atmospheric conditions after being "water logged" so many years.

[Ron Scott]

Log Salvage Raft. Used by the Underwater Salvage Company of Ashland, Oregon. Here they are shown salvaging a redwood log from an Oregon lake.

The raft is made of steel and consists of two pontoons. The source of lift is a power winch and the raft is powered by two 40 horsepower Mercury motors. A motor is placed on each pontoon to give maximum turning power.

The raft weighs 3,000 lbs. and has a lifting capacity of 10,000 lbs. It is of the catamaran type. Circa late 1950's.

[Don P]

I'll be, looks like a pond arch :D

I've heard that teak is girdled and left standing to dry enough so that it doesn't all become sinkers. I think hornbeam is this dense also.

There was a show on PBS up north a few years back on the salvage outfit in Duluth, they also said they sawed fast and dried slow.

I don't think ring count has anything to do with density...here's my step out onto that thin branch. I think higher density wood has to do more with the ratio of earlywood to latewood (dark rings). When you look at earlywood (this springwood flush is put on in about a month) under the microscope the cell walls are thin and the cavity, or lumen, is large...if green it would hold alot of water if dry alot of air. The latewood cells are the summer wood(put on over the rest of the growing season) and are quite thick walled with very little lumen.

In "old growth" there are many small rings, in "second growth" there are fewer thicker rings but the ratio of latewood rings is often greater in this "looser" pattern. I've seen higher specific gravity numbers on 4 rings per inch wood than on twenty ring per inch stuff.

When wood starts developing heartwood then it begins backfilling inactive cells with all manner of byproducts that increase the specific gravity. After heartwood production has been going on awhile the amount of sapwood becomes fairly consistent.

Decay resistance has been attributed to the old growth, but in studies by the Forest Products Labs second growth western redcedar showed the same decay resistance as old growth.

As I read back over this post it sounds kinda like I'm down on the old growth/river recovered stuff and nothing could be farther from the truth, I've just been going down kind of parralell pathways in research lately and this is some of what I've been coming up with.

I see Godwin advertising in several builder, and homeowner remodel type magazines. :P I have yet to see anyone filling the niche of providing period mouldings and panellings in period wood.

[Ron Wenrich]

Don

You have 2 things going on there that would make the old growth denser.  Old growth should better be labled slow growth.  We can grow trees the same way, if we really wanted to.

You're right about the density between the early wood vs the late wood.  But, in slow growing trees, the early wood isn't as wide as in faster growing trees.  That would increase the density.

Also, you have less sapwood.  Depending on species, your sapwood may only be a slight ring around the heartwood.  Heartwood is more dense and rot resistant.  So, it all makes sense.

From what I've seen on the web, the old growth is more stable.  That means you can have wider boards that will perform well in furniture and flooring.  Nowadays, the commercials won't use anything over 4" wide, and glue the whole thing together.

[beenthere]

Don and Ron
I think the discussion of earlywood and latewood densities and their effect on wood density as it relates to growth rate needs to be identified as to softwood or hardwood, as well as by species. Fast-grown softwood will likely have lower density wood than slow-grown softwood. However, ring porous oaks that are fast-grown will have higher density wood than will slow-grown oak. Diffuse porous woods like walnut tend not to have much density difference based on growth rate.
You are both right for certain woods.

As for wood that has been "lost" under water, I don't think it is much (if any) different from the wood that can still be found in our forests today. Not saying either that, in general, the forests of today are anything like the forests of a few years (100?) ago.

[Ron Scott]

Underwater Log Salvage Article in Skin Diver Magazine; July 1962