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Any suggestions on using Socket Systems for timber framing????

Started by Back40x2, March 23, 2006, 08:30:13 PM

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Back40x2


   
  I'm not really what you would call a certified builder, and I know everything that sounds too good to be true usually is.  However, this on the surface appears to be a pretty neat, easy, fast, and foolproof way of timber framing :o.   All straight cut lumber, with no tenons or angle cuts. 

   They will also help me design the building so I can cut each piece of wood with my mill.  I have a Timberking 1600 and can only cut 17'.  There is an added cost for that which I know!  I figuring on what I have found out, that the entire setup of hardware and designing is going to be about 1000.00.  I personally don't think that is too bad considering my wood is free from my own land. 8) 8) 8)

  Anyway, anyone that knows anything about this company or their product, I would love to hear the PRO'S and CON's.  I know the first con you're probably going to tell me,  "That's not real timber framing"  I know, but again I am not a builder and I love the look of timber framing construction.  I also think I can do my garage/shop for under 10 G's. :o 8) ;)

  The company's website is www.socketsystems.com
 
Thanks in advance for any and all input ;)

Back40x2

My JD 4120 Loader/Hoe/fransgard winch, a 10,000 pound Warn winch, STIHL 460,  Timberking 1600,  Lots of logs, a shotgun, rifle, my German Shorthaired Pointers and a 4-wheel drive, is all this Maine boy needs to survive!! Oh Yeah, and my WIFE!!!!!!

pep

Lucas 827 w/slabbing bar
JD 410B
Wood Wiz Surfacing Attachment

wiam

Do a search.  It ahs been discussed before.  Arkansawyer welds up his own.

Will

Back40x2


  Pep,

    That looks a little too complicated for me.  You would still have to cut your angles.  With the other system, the angles are made for you, with the steel joints.

  Thanks thou!

Back40x2
My JD 4120 Loader/Hoe/fransgard winch, a 10,000 pound Warn winch, STIHL 460,  Timberking 1600,  Lots of logs, a shotgun, rifle, my German Shorthaired Pointers and a 4-wheel drive, is all this Maine boy needs to survive!! Oh Yeah, and my WIFE!!!!!!

wesdor

You should check tractorByNet. There was a thread that I started last December that includes pictures of the barn going up. 

From my investigation it looks like the cost is slightly more for the Socket System, but it should be easier to erect and gives you more room at the top.

Here is a link to the thread I mentioned:
Socket Shed Going Up

bushhog

Hey Wesdor -

Did you guys get any of the big wind that other parts of Illinois got recently?  If so, how did everything hold up?  Would you use them again?

Did you ever get any wind sheer ratings from the company, or just snow load?

I like the concept, for the same reasons you mentioned and am still entertaining all options before I start my pole barn.

Thanks

wesdor

I can't speak to the wind sheer ratings, haven't put up a shed yet.  I was planning on putting one up this spring, but money doesn't look good for that project.

My son is a construction engineer, and although he didnt do specific calculations on the building, he thought it should hold up as well as regular trusses.  He also suggested we use Simpson Brackets for the bottom of the posts instead of the Socket system or putting them in the ground.  When I finally get to put up the building, I'm going to put him in charge of the project.

Regarding wind, we had some real stuff come through here a couple of weeks ago.  A Hampton Inn that was being built near the airport had 2 storeis of the frame up and the wind took it all down.  Lots of other damage.  So that rating is important for us to consider.

slowzuki

My order of socket systems connectors is sitting in their dock waiting for my truck! I have a very large order so you will get to see a pretty creative use of the connectors over the next few months!

oakiemac

This was a very interesting thread.
I'm building a saw shed this spring and wasn't sure what I wanted to do but after seeing this socket system I think it might be the way to go.

My only concern is the span. I would need at least 14' on one side so I can load logs. I would prefer 16'. Most logs I saw are 12' and under but I would like to have the option of 16' logs.
Anyone know if 16' span is possible in Michigan with heavy snow?
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Raphael

  An appropriately sized timber will handle 16ft+ of span, I don't know what the socket system is rated for but you could always mortice and tennon the one critical joint.
  Or just lap it over the tops of your posts and run a long lag bolt through it an down into the post add some flat steel to the faces and you're golden...
  I've got 8x10 spruce timbers 16'9" shoulder to shoulder supporting second floor loads, they are further reduced by having joist pockets cut into them; how much weight in snow do you usually engineer for?
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

slowzuki

I'm not sure exactly what you mean for 16 ft on one side, but the spans the bents can go is I think up to 30 ft if the bent to bent spacing is small.  They have all the tables on the web site.  If you only span 16 ft with the bent, you can in some cases span like 14 or 16 ft with the purlins.

You should go through the website, there are a bunch of links at the bottom too.

Jim_Rogers

oakiemac:
You should have any design, that may hold up thousands of pounds of snow on a roof, reviewed by someone in your area who has experience and knowledge of spans, loads, and load paths. Such as a structural engineer.
Remember the advice you get here is free, and we don't know all the facts of your design or area......

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

slowzuki

I used their span tables only the canadian engineer approved set which is only available on paper from the canadian distributer.  The tables are engineered for the stated snow loads but as Jim mentioned, some areas may have crazy wind loads.  We have a very high snow load here and very little wind load.  Almost anything with some sheathing on at least two sides will stand for 50-100 years here if it can survive the snow.

As a note I checked some of the spans I was looking at and their designs are valid for the snow loads.  I would certainly also recomend and engineer review it if you plan to live in it.  If it is a barn or shed, well, make up your own mind on that.

Don P

Thank Goodness, I've written and deleted a post on this thread 3 times.
I didn't want to offend any of the proponents or users of this approach but that is good advice. I have worked on one and was not impressed with the feel of the building. It was probably the weakest feeling roof structure I've ever built, doesn't mean my feel means anything. It has not budged in 3 winters, although they have been mild. I would be interested in hearing what an independent engineer has to say if any of you go to that step.

ARKANSAWYER




4x4 connector system




6x6 connector system with middle bents with double post.




  Double post connector for King post Bent.




King post bent


 

  6x6  cabin package.
ARKANSAWYER

Tom


ARKANSAWYER


  I started not to post the cabin picture and now I wished I had not.  ;D  Some folks just have way to much spare time on their hands.   I bet the Boys at Baker just love that photo and give Tom a free blade every time he post it.   I do remember that my ole pal Bibbyman had something to do with making it. 
ARKANSAWYER

slowzuki

You should find it is more flexible feeling than a truss roof.  Truss roofs tend to be stiffer for the same span as a post and beam building.  This is even more flexible again as it is a moment frame type design (the columns carry moment loads too) As a note, don't skimp on the hauch bracing, the design is highly dependent on those braces for snow and wind loading.  It is one area I think they should be more specific about the lumber size and fastening as the average Joe may not realize it.


Edit: BTW I have three different sets of span tables from them now bearing 3 different p-eng stamps for different jurisdictions.
Ken

Quote from: Don P on April 02, 2006, 09:11:59 AM
Thank Goodness, I've written and deleted a post on this thread 3 times.
I didn't want to offend any of the proponents or users of this approach but that is good advice. I have worked on one and was not impressed with the feel of the building. It was probably the weakest feeling roof structure I've ever built, doesn't mean my feel means anything. It has not budged in 3 winters, although they have been mild. I would be interested in hearing what an independent engineer has to say if any of you go to that step.

oakiemac

Just to clarify, what I meant by span was the distance between the bents or bays. My sawmill will go in the shed parallel to the long axis of the shed and I need 16' without a bay so that I can load them long logs on occasion.
I looked at their whole website and found the tables with different snow loads and bay distances. They call the span the width of the building. I only need 12' width (span) but wider would be no problem. The total length only has to be 24' but I think I will go 32'. If I'm reading the tables correctly then I would need three bays spaced 16' apart. I think this setup would work really good for the saw shed.
I hear you on contacting a local engineer but for a back woods sawshed I am not going to get too excited. If we ever get any more real snow, and we haven't had any in the last five years, then I'll shovel the roof off before entering.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Don P

Thanks for helping me understand the frame slowzuki. I appreciate your stating that there are several engineer's stamps on the system, it probably speaks more to my lack of understanding than their product. The joints of the haunches did concern me, those fasteners and the wood they are in is under some stress. I have no problem with their floored models or with the tie beamed ones Arky does, that to me seems to be a lot stronger design.


slowzuki

Heres a bit of sort of reverse engineered info on the designs for failure under high snow loads.  The floor model ones are certainly stronger if you don't put a load on the floor. 

The overload failure mode for the non-floor models is too much deflection, then depending on the particular design it would pop the hauch bracing or collar ties leading to bending breakage of the 6x6 near one of the connectors.

The overload failure on the floor models would be column buckling if the floor is placed very high and it is a long building, if the floor is low probably connection failure of the floor to column followed by the same failure as a non-floor model.

My calcs were for designing a truss type building out of 6x6 before I found the socket systems stuff and I then modeled a socket systems type frame.

beenthere

Some sketch's along with your descriptions would really drive home the good points you raise regards the failure points. :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

ARKANSAWYER


   For the post buckling on tall walls with out sheeting I use 8x8 post and cut the top to take the 6x6 connector.   I have also made the connectors from 8x8 tubing as well as 2x6 and 4x10.   I have made them with 4x10 second floor joist off of 8x8 post to 6x6 rafters.  There was a job where the second floor joist were to be wood covered "I" beams welded to the connector.   But his coin was a tad shy of his dreams.

  Next thing is how you infill the walls.   Sometimes we fill between the post and others we stud to the outside.



  Someone was asking about this a while back and I did not have a photo then.   I have dreamed of studing up the walls that are to be bolted on the outside and having foam sprayed on the panels I make like SIBs.  Having the inside walls on and the bolting the thing up would be a time saver.  The studing can help with the braceing to keep the frame from racking.
ARKANSAWYER

hillbilly

             It could of been me not sure though I know ive sure enough thuoght about asking  ::)
          For exp  how did you do your office walls inside and out ,im looking for more info how people finsh the frame out on the inside when they are not using sips?
thanks for the pic ARKY is the wall setting on any kind of off set or do the long bolts carry all of the weight of the wall?
hillbilly

ARKANSAWYER


  The long bolts carry the weight of the wall but there are lots of bolts.  I have nailers for where the wall studs are not in the right place to put the inside wall material to.   I put nailers to the post and any place I need them to make sure I have good backing for the inside wall.   Most of my inside walls will be T&G wood of different types.
ARKANSAWYER

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