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Accurate Measurements

Started by crtreedude, March 22, 2006, 08:37:33 AM

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crtreedude

Our current method of measurement has worked fairly well, but with growth, I am starting to decide that perhaps there is something better we can do and should.

We have been measuring just by counting rows - and fixing a point to be close using GPS. This works fine, but the GPS of course as an error around 4 meters.

So, what is available that will let me get under a meter? That should be fine, I don't have to be to the inch, but something closer would be good.

Also, I have used fGIS but have decided to go with a comercial package - any suggestions? Mainly for mapping, etc.

I have downloaded a trial of TatukGIS Editor and it seems to be fairly good - but I was curious what else people might suggest?

Thanks

Fred
So, how did I end up here anyway?

twoodward15

Fred, are you using it to plant trees?  Why not just get a rope the length you want between trees, have one guy hold it at the first point, then walk to the next, mark it and walk to the next, and so on?  On another measuring note, when you cut your trees into lumber do you measure on the metric scale or on the quarter scale?
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

crtreedude

Part of our model is that people own groups of trees - the measurement is 3.5 meters between. No problem with that - the issue is that I want to mark off the trees people own using something quicker than just measuring on the grid we layout - perhaps it is my inner geek...  ::)

Measurements are based on inches for width and height, and varas for length (varas = 33 inches) or meters. It is truly weird. Pulgadas = inch in Spanish, but it doesn't mean just an inch, it is really closer to a board foot.

It gets complicated.

For example, if someone wants to by a tree, they do this:

1. Take a string, and measure around the tree.
2. Measure string in inches and divide by four.
3. Multiple that result by itself
4. For 4 varas (11 feet), that is the pulgadas you have to pay for.
5. Repeat until there is no more tree left.

Using numbers if the string measurement is 40 inches. (40 inch circumference)

(40 / 4) = 10
10 * 10 = 100
So, a log 11' long would have 100 pulgadas in it - and this gets pretty close to the yield as well.

1 cubic meter = 424 BF
1 cubic meter = 350 Pulgadas.

Simple, eh?

Go up to an old campesino with your fancy doyle or international scales and they will kick you off the property. And the average price of trees here is in pulgadas, not BF and not cubic meters.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

beenthere

Quote....your fancy doyle or international scales and they will......

They work well for the intended use to estimate the board foot yield from a log.  Not intended to be 'fancy' and no pulgadas are estimated.  :D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

crtreedude

They work very well. I have learned down here if I am not going to scare the old farmers, I can't go running calculations in my head! They figure I am some kind of sharpy when I do that.

When in Rome...

So, how did I end up here anyway?

crtreedude

Progress being made! It appears that Delorme has a package, with post processing, that will do what we need. It will be sub-meter in accuracy. I think the total package, including GIS Editor, will be under 1,500 USD.

I suspect I will need two GPS units, and then it uses a stationary one to compare against the once I am using for measuring - and using some fancy stuff, figures out what it could be.

Not too shabby!

Now, if I can just get a hold of a real person in Delorme to ask a couple more questions, I will be there. The CFO (Amy) has already allocated the money.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Greg

Quote from: crtreedude on March 24, 2006, 09:12:51 AM
Progress being made! It appears that Delorme has a package, with post processing, that will do what we need. It will be sub-meter in accuracy. I think the total package, including GIS Editor, will be under 1,500 USD.

I suspect I will need two GPS units, and then it uses a stationary one to compare against the once I am using for measuring - and using some fancy stuff, figures out what it could be.

Not too shabby!

Now, if I can just get a hold of a real person in Delorme to ask a couple more questions, I will be there. The CFO (Amy) has already allocated the money.



This sounds very interesting. How did you find out about this.

I am very interested in hearing about your experience using this GPS tool and GIS editor.

Greg

crtreedude

Lots of searching with Google - finally latched into the phrase sub-meter GPS and found the delorme. There is something called DGPS which I will let you look up rather than me give incomplete (or wrong) information.

I have been using my old Garmin GPS 12 which I like for mapping areas. Works well as long as I use the route with waypoints. I walk until I hit something that requires a turn, set a waypoint, and then go off at a different direction. Makes really nice maps. I superimpose these over our planos (Spanish for survey maps), then mark the areas that are trees, wild areas, rivers, creeks, springs, etc.

This is all very important for our future, we met with MINAE and they confirmed, anything we can prove we planted, we can cut down, but, anything in a wild area can only be cut down under very rigid conditions, mainly, if they are dead.

As my Spanish improves, so does my ability to talk with the local officials. They are all very good, once they figure out we aren't here to rape and pillage the forest.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

I would look up Thales Navigation Mobile Mapper WinCE Handheld GPS. You can do base corrections with it also, or use beacon-on-a-belt to do realtime WAAS corrections. The first method is more reliable. I think it's $3000 CDN plus $1500 for the GIS with corrections. If you don't want to use their GIS, get ESRI's ArcPAd (download a trial to test off their site) which I think is $500 US for V 7.0 and you can purchase Thales GPS Correction plug-in. It installs a Windows version on your PC as well as Windows Mobile 2003/5 onto your MM WinCE handheld. They are ruggedized for dust and moisture. Only thing with Arcpad you can't print a map as far as I know, but check out their extension database and maybe someone has an extension you can use for free to print. Otherwise, use a freebie GIS program to load in the shapefiles and create/print a map from there. I like ArcPAd because you can edit in the field, and with some of those proprietary GPS devices, if you FU, it's a complete re-do. Another option is the Trimble Win CE handheld GPS line, but be prepared to shell out about twice the cash. But, it is a tried and tested GPS. Although I've heard they have had trouble with Activesync recongnizing the GPS when you make the connection to the PC. Takes some fiddling with at times. This may have been corrected with Activesync V 3.8 + ;)

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

crtreedude

Interesting, according to Delorme, the downside is that you have take samplings for 10 to 15 MINUTES to achieve this accuracy.  Not going to work.  However, while talking with them, something occurred to me.

Walking a field, which was layed out pretty accurately in a straight line will create a pretty good average for points, I should be able to average them out and get very close, as close as I need I believe. Thankfully my daughter is really good at math!

Basically, I can normalize the points - and I will be close enough for my needs.

Usually, the accuracy of my old faithful GPS 12 is enough for nearly everything.

The other alternative is graph paper. Mark out the grid - how many deep, how many wide. I suspect the low tech solution just might be the best...  Since our planting grid is very regular, this should work just fine.

SwampDonkey, yeah, I saw those and I am sorely tempted - I just might if this doesn't work. $5,000 is a lot if I can make it work another way.

I can hire a college kid from the local tech for about 1,000 colones per hour ($2.00) so it is hard for me to justify $5,000, except that it would be cool...

Trimble has a nice unit for about $5,000 now as well. Perhaps in a couple of years they will be around 2,000 - very possible.


So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

Don't count on Trimble dropping prices, their old GEO3 obsolete model is still $6000 USD, but it's a realiable unit and the cost is somewhat justified. If you could hire a forestry service down there with one of the better models I mentioned, go for it. Your never going to get a cheepie GPS with the accuracy your looking for. Up here we aren't allowed in the woods with those if we are doing stuff for DNR or Industrial freehold.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

If your going low tech get Deadplotter, a string box (or 100 foot logger's tape) and a compass. Work with a partner to measure distances if your not using a string box. If your alone with a stringbox tie a ribbon at eye level to get the slope reading, don't point the clino to the ground.  ::)  :D Correct all your distances to horizontal on each line segment using a clinometer and calculator (formulas are on the forum). Slope correction tables are on the internet or even available from forestry supply shops. Use your cheapie GPS and take the starting position (lat/long) and import the Deadplotter/DXF file into your GIS. Your making life to difficult your way. :D

Don't forget to reset the adometer on the string box every line segment/azimuth change. You can do your slope correction calculations sitting home out of the rain and flies to speed up measurement. Oh, and use Duksback paper, mini binder to hold the paper, and a pencil for tally. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Greg

Quote from: crtreedude on March 24, 2006, 01:37:45 PM
Lots of searching with Google - finally latched into the phrase sub-meter GPS and found the delorme. There is something called DGPS which I will let you look up rather than me give incomplete (or wrong) information.

I have been using my old Garmin GPS 12 which I like for mapping areas. Works well as long as I use the route with waypoints. I walk until I hit something that requires a turn, set a waypoint, and then go off at a different direction. Makes really nice maps. I superimpose these over our planos (Spanish for survey maps), then mark the areas that are trees, wild areas, rivers, creeks, springs, etc.


I have an inexpensive GPS, a Garmin eTrex. I would like to be able to use it to cruise around my woodlot (and others landowners) marking corners, specific trees, and/or vegetation then download the data onto a nice mapping program.

I love to see data visually with maps, and using GPS to create interactive data maps seems like a natural complement to a management plan. How do you super impose multiple maps ontop of each other?

Problem from I know thus far is

a) getting a reliable signal/accuracy in the woods. Even in the middle of winter with no leaves, my eTrex accuracy drops from 20 ft down to 50 ft.  I don't see how these fancy sub meter, post processing programs really help. Once the leaves come out, it aint hapening.

b) cost. I am not a professional forestry company of gov. agency that can fork over 5 grand for a turnkey system with advance GIS functionality I'll never use. The Delorme mapping software looks much more reasonable, though there are so many different options with XMap its hard to tell what you need/don't need.

Excellent discussion,
Greg

crtreedude

Actually Swampy, you wouldn't want to bet me on the price dropping. This is what I see. The application of accurate GPS is too much fun, and in reality, what do people like Garmin have to add BESIDES accuracy?  With CORS and other things available, all you need is the implementation. Also, using GPS in cars is driving accuracy. So many other interesting applications as well. Price has come down to around 100 to 200 for a good unit, nothing more than cram in features.

My current portable computer is so much more powerful than what I used 20 years ago it is scary. Memory and power just keeps getting cheaper and cheaper.  I was looking at PDAs today, amazing the power for so little "plata" (Tico for money)

With Delorme "cracking" the sub-meter level, you can count on that it will continue. Of course, now Garmin will need to add sub-meter, but perhaps a lot more rapid, etc. etc. 

Regarding accuracy under canopy - no problem for me because I am measuring fields. But, in the future, when the trees have grown, it is a big deal. Hadn't thought of that.

Yes, an excellent discussion.


Since we lay out on a grid of 3.5 meters, counting trees is the easiest thing there is, and you are right, a compass will do wonders on orientation. Since I have to count off trees anyway (110 per block), well, counting trees makes sense.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

Well with the submeter GPS's they use in forest harvest operations they setup a base out in the open and the GPS in the machine is just a rover. In silviculture (planting/ PCT and cleaning) you don't need those higher end machines, but you need one with post processing in the office at the very least or they don't except it. Also, with the expensive handhelds you can filter out the higher PDOP's from being logged and the multipath caused by the signal bouncing. With Trimble and the others the price is going to stay reasonably higher, out of the consumer price range because the OS in the units are continually upgraded and they are 'professional' models. The WinCE 3.0 andheld GPS of 3 years ago are obsolete now and the software keeps getting upgraded to the new OS's that have more features/capabilities. The handheld computer that has the embedded GPS still looks the same, but the OS is continually 'improving' so to speak.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

crtreedude

SwampDonkey,

You actually think the Windows OS is improving...?  :D Perhaps you mean THEIR applications.

Yes, the high end units will continue to add features to justify their expense, while the basic features will migrate down to the Garmins of the world. What used to be only for the professionals, will soon be common place for the enthusiasts - or at least that is how it normally goes.

Now I am in search for a good GIS Editor - any suggestions? I have been trying TatukGIS Editor and it seems to work well, I was just wondering if there were any others I should test?

So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

Cr,

Notice I used the term in brackets, as I am of the same sentiment as yourself on that topic. Although, giving credit where it is due, I have never crashed a HandHeld PC except under some real high humidty situations. ;) Have you tried fGIS (imports DXF and Shapefiles I believe), do a search on the forum to get the website. It's a freebie and suppose to have some good features. I never tried it because I use Maptitude from Calipre Corp in Mass. $500 USD

Your going to end up doing the string box method yet. :D :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

I wonder if Costa Rica forestry has aerial photography in MrSID format or Tiff (with world file - .twf). If they do have MrSID it includes the image and the corrections in a folder, all those files (6 or 8 ) have to be used to read the image and place it on the earth. They are distortion free (at least ours from SNB). You can even try one of those images on your GIS to see what it looks like by snagging it off www.snb.ca just for the heck of it. I can give you a link to the map index and you can choose any 15x10 km mapsheet (~2.5 mb zipped file to extract) to download, all public domain. You might also be able to get DEM files for your area to make contour maps, depends on the capability of your GIS. Maptitude can do it, but Arcview can't unless you buy the feature, expensive. If they did have MrSID imagery of your area, that would be real sweet for you. Maybe you can get some satellite imagery to. Someone at the Board was saying they have some high res sat. imagery on google Earth, but for my area it's still spottie. For instance they have a band of imagery for a rural area no where near a town, just potatoe fields and woods. When I heard that, I was thinking that's a first. :D :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

crtreedude

fGIS is no longer for the general public - you can get the 1.x version, but not the new version. I don't know if it is just me, but I tend to break it.  ::)

It is because of a license change with TatukGIS.



So, how did I end up here anyway?

crtreedude

Looks like maps, GIS downloads and everything are available for Costa Rica. They really shouldn't let me have alll this data...

http://www.procig.org/

So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

The one you mentioned CR looks decent, give the trial a go. That's the trouble with some software for GIS it soon goes commercial, and you can't blame them. Maptitude includes the ability to generate contours and digitize scanned maps ( from uncompressed tiff format) if you ever have that need. It also imports more data formats and has more coordinate systems (I think). I don't know Costa Rica's coordinate system but your forester should know.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

I'm still fishing around in that site you just posted. A couple of Costa Rican data sites are dead links. I'll let you know if I find anything useful. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

I don't think that site has been updated in awhile, most links are broken.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

crtreedude

Sounds like much of Costa Rica, hasn't been updated in a while and many things are broken...  ::)

You should see the roads! Around us they are good, but some clowns put down asphalt 1" thick - no lie. and of course trucks overloaded drive over them and turn them into swiss cheese.

Sigh, I really love Costa Rica, BUT, it has it issues for sure.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

crtreedude

Actually, I was able to find some data - most of the links do work, as long as you don't try for English. Go for Spanish and there is a lot of information available.

The English branches aren't completed usually.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

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