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Swingblade question

Started by getoverit, March 21, 2006, 09:27:31 PM

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getoverit

I have been cutting some rather small logs (12" to 18") with my Peterson, and have been having a heck of a time with dogging the logs down so that they dont move. Moving logs can ruin your day >:(

I was talking to someone about the issue I am having, and they suggested stacking the logs in a pyramid and then cutting them one at a time. They say by stacking them like this, they all tend to keep the one next to it still.

Has anybody here cut logs like this and if so, do you have any pictures and tips on how to do it?
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Captain

Don't do it, Ken.  There is just not enough holding them.

Unless the logs are abnormally grotesque, with lots of bumps and swells, I don't have any difficulty with just using wood skids with square edged notches.  The notches must be deep enough to just catch the log with the edges. 

If you logs are moving, there is not enough points holding them down, your notches are too shallow, you're sawing too fast, there could be lots of reasons.  Many here on this forum have witnessed me sawing a slab down to nothing with no movement, but it takes a careful setup and a bit of caution when the log is almost gone.

I've got a set of Peterson log dogs, I've never used them...even on 8-10" logs.  Certainly not on anything 12-18"

Captain

getoverit

I've got to admit that I wasn't using the square notches, but had cut some "V" notches.... those DEFINITELY did NOT work.

I guess I made matters worse, because I flipped over the 4x6 that had the V notches in them and then cut square notches in them. The square notches did hold better. The problem I had then was that the 4x6 broke in half right where the notch was..... guess I made the notch too deep?

anyway, the problem I have is when the log gets to about this shape:



All of the weight is then on the right hand side of the log, throwing the center of gravity off to that side, and the log wants to roll over that way. I'm going to cut myself another 4x6 (or maybe a 6x6 this time) tomorrow, and then try the square notches again.  I have been cutting these logs 3 at a time (one beside the other) and when one log moves, it ALWAYS bumps into the next log.... this causes all of the horizontal edges to be off :(

I'm afraid of metal dogs right now since my spare blade is out to get retipped.... so I'm just looking for all possible ways to keep small logs from moving.. thanks Captain ! you confirmed the square notch !
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Captain

V notches do NOT work.  Not a positive hold on the edge of the bark.

Also, make sure your square notches are wide enough...too narrow equals the tipping issue.  There is no "standard" size notch.  I use 2 sizes mostly, approx 5" and 7".

You're also going to run into more tipping if you are sawing a lot of boards vertically in the middle of the log.  If you saw your logs horizontally, they will never tip from being heavy on the right side.  Sawing vertically is certainly appealing on the ATS to keep from running back for horizontal adjustments.  It would help tp take more off the top of the log before beginning the vertical course, and taking narrower boards in the vertical course when flat sawing.

Captain

Jeff Meyer

I agree with the Captin, cut your boards off horizontally.  If they were bigger trees then your grain might matter.  But since they are small trees you will get the same grain pattern either way.  One thing I do to hold small trees is to pre cut small wedges out of wood and hammer them into the gap on the bottom of the tree and nail the back side down low.  I also use a lot of plastic wedges to hold my trees from moving.  Hope that help.

Jeff

getoverit

One thing I have done that I am having some success with is to cut all of the vertical cuts in the log (I'm cutting 1x6's) so that the log has all 1" boards standing on edge, and then when they are all cut, flipping the blade to horizontal and make just one horizontal cut. When you get to the end of the horizontal cut, it takes a while to offbear all of the boards, but the log doesnt roll and the remaining log is still on the right plane if you want to mill it further.

I have thought about making all of the horizontal cuts this way, but it is much easier and more uniform to make the vertical cuts first.

I'll make me another 6x6 tomorrow and try the square notch again. Maybe with the extra width of the log bunk, it will also help to hold things still.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

TN_man

Getoverit,
Definitely make yourself several different square notch-sized bunks. Like Captain we use mostly 5" and 7" notches but also have some that are 9" and 12"( for those really big logs-40"+logs). We have made some bunks where we have some 7" notches on one side and 5" notches on the other.  Of course that does not allow you to make them with ramps built in, but it keeps you from having to haul a bunch of different bunks around with you.
Hope this helps.
WM LT-20 solar-kiln Case 885 4x4 w/ front end loader  80 acre farm  little time or money

Captain

Ken, use an 8x8.  It works better.

Captain

doublecut

Or you could purchase the D&L Dogging system and fix the problem for good.
Have pics if you like .
doublecut

Fla._Deadheader

All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

doublecut


getoverit

Somebody called me last night with a free log offer (about 20 logs), so I went and got them today...all pine

I cut one of the logs into 6x6's and have it ready to notch when I can get a chance to. I like the idea of having one size notch on one side and another size on the other.

Had another call this afternoon to go get more free logs  I love it !!

Lindsay, I would love to see what you have for dogs.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

getoverit

Just wanted to update this post so that everyone could see that there is a solution.

I took captain's advice and cut myself a couple of 6x6 pine cants that are 12' long and then placed these on top of 4x6's laying on their side. The 4x6's are running parallel to the saw rails, and the 6x6's are running perpandiucular to it.

Then I used the mill to cut out some 5" square faced notches into the top of the 6x6. I have been able to shave the logs right down to the bark without movement using this setup. I have also kept using the method of cutting all of the vertical cuts on the last layer before swinging to the horizontal to cut them all off. This eliminates the need for the log to roll out of the notches and keeps the log very steady during the cuts (even the last horizontal one).

because the cants are 12' long, I can stage another log onto them outside of the rails. This helps speed up the milling process because I move 2 logs or more at once and they roll really easily into the cutting area on the 6x6's

I had to take the small wheels off of the posts on the right hand side of the mill though. They kept hitting the 6x6's when I got down to the last bit of the log. These wheels are meant to help roll the milling head around when you are transporting it and arent needed when milling. They easily re-attach with a couple of bolts when needed.

Many thanks for all of the good advice on this issue ! My problems are now solved !
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Bob Smalser

Make sure nothing else is wrong in your blade alignment or sharpening procedures.  I stopped chainsawing notches into my bearers several years ago because the sawing forces on my Lucas just aren't that great and I don't find I need them.   I just kick in 4 wedges  on single logs and leave a healthy ridge in the last 8" of log.  On small logs like yours, I load the mill three at a time, lining all three up parallel using wedges as necessary and insuring they touch each other so each benefits from the other's weight.
Bob

HORSELOGGER

Get a set of real dogs and be done with it. :P
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

woodsteach

As I own a brand X with log dogs I don't have that problem so I'd suggest getting a set of log dogs (which ever brand).  I've milled a few small logs 6" x 6' long, and I've milled lots (hundreds) larger logs 30" x 8' and the dogs worked very well.  My only complaint is on cottonwoods with their large bark sometimes I have to axe out the bark where the dogs bite!

Paul
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

Bob Smalser

These dogs made of metal?

If so, I personally wouldn't use them with a swing blade like mine, which reaches 3" or so beneath the line of cut during the swing.  I have enuf problems avoiding the crossbars laying on the ground at the mill ends, let alone a hunk of iron where my wooden wedges usually go.  I saw thru those wedges all the time getting out the last board.

Bob

HORSELOGGER

If you used em once, you would never go back. The saw can easily be set up to avoid hitting them,,, sheesh all mills use metal dogs ??? The brand x dogs are good and bite hard... they appear to be a knock off of the D&L dogs.
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

getoverit

Actually, I have a set of dogs, but wont use them for the very same reason that Bob mentioned. Those dogs are made by JPGreen, and are gripperdogs. They really do hold well, but I'm afraid of using them because they are metal. He is sending me a set of dogs that are made of composite and swingblade friendly to try out. I hope to have some good success with those soon. For now, the square notches in the 6x6 bunks are working really well for me.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Bob Smalser

Oh...I served my time on circle mills with carriages and dogs.

What I'm saying is that today I don't bother with notches in the bearers, let alone iron dogs I have to fuss with and worry about hitting.  The sawing forces of of that 22", 5-tip Lucas blade are so low I don't find log movement a problem when using just wanes as wedges...even with small logs.

I'd make sure my new mill was in tune before spending money I might not have to.

Bob

Husband

Just set a stop up on the mill so that it will only go as far down as the dogs, but so that you dont hit them.

jpgreen

Been very busy in the R&D side of Dogs lately to address the obvious problem of hitting steel dogs with your swingblade mill.  

Even though it's easy to set up your rig not to hit log dogs, the potential for someone to slip up is always there for loosing your tips, and possibly your blade. What's worse if that comes apart- SERIOUS injury can result.

I've come up with a solution.

My new GripperDogs will be shipping soon, and everyone who has purchased the old GripperDogs will get a replacement set. I will be posting full details with pictures, and as always anyone that's not happy with the new dogs can get a full refund, but these new dogs are blade friendly, and fully (plus cheaply) rebuildable if you cut into them.

I'm very excited about the new dogs, and will be posting pics showing the versatility of them, with all the possible set ups. THe new GripperDogs will make dogging and sawing large and small logs and odd-shaped logs a breeze, along with your choice of working height, cutting on a taper with Peterson mills, etc., etc. ...... smiley_beertoast
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

NZJake

Sounds cool JP,

I'd be interested in having a look at those doggys. Steel has always been my sticking point toward the design of log dogs, our swingers are used in most jobs, off site (uneven ground), this means the bearers are ussually +- 50mm uneven to the tracks, therefore restrictive lowering stoppers doe not work in every circumstance. As a manufacturer to rely on the customer to reset this stopper for variating jobs is a little risky.

Our (small log) log dogs get installed under the wooden bearer where the blade must strike the bearer before any steel. I like the simplicity of your little suckers, where they simply slip over your bearer without having to knotch. I also like the way they can be used such as lego building blocks to build up a sturdy log deck base.

I think your onto something with the composite material, keep to it.

Cheers, Jake.
Wife says I woke up one morning half asleep uttering thin kerf and high production, I think I need a hobby other than milling?

jpgreen

Thanks Jake, I appreciate the compliment and encouragement.. 8)

The reason I developed GripperDogs is to make swingers more complete, as I believe the swingblade mill is the most versatile and complete "all purpose" portable sawmill manufactured when combined with log dogs for making accurate cuts in small and odd-shaped logs.

Everyone knows that for large logs swing mills are king, and small logs of course had been band blade mill territory. But now there is no limit to the size of logs you can easily mill with a swinger.  The thinner (band blade) kerf has really no benefit to cutting posts and beams out of small logs neither IMO.

Be in touch soon...   :)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

jpgreen


Walla...

New Generation II GripperDog Log Dogs... 8) 8) :) 8) :) 8) 8)








That log is a dry Douglas Fir, that is 6 feet long, 6"
diameter on one end, and 5" diameter on the other.

The skids are 4"x 6" for a total of 12" high and it is ROCK solid. No back and forward movement, and no side to side.  THESE DOGS ARE SOLID!!!

The log has spacer blocks under it so it leaves a 1" slab.  This is how you get
your beam out of a small log with my dogs.

The composite inserts are replaceable, and will be between 5-$10 shipped, if you were to cut into them several times and need replacement.

As you can see, this system can be set up numerous ways, any working height, for any shape of log. Dog multiple logs. The dogs are easy to use, fast on and fast off, and blade safe... 8)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Nova

Bring 'em on
Can't wait till they arrive 8)
...No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care...John Maxwell

getoverit

Looks good to me !! Bring them on !
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

solodan

How did I miss this post :o
I couldn't have been busy working ;)

I agree with Horselogger, that you can easily set up with out hitting them. I mark my vertical winch supports with a wax lumber marker at each new setup site, so that if I see this bright line when winching down, DO NOT CUT. I also agree with everyone else, that I am still always worried about hitting metal. JP's old dogs worked real good and he knows I was a big fan of them. :)  I won't lie, I always feel a bit uneasy near the bottom of the log, even though I know I took every precaution. I just do not like the feeling of my blade spinning near these hunks of steel. I think the new dogs will ease everyone in this department. Good dogs that work and are made of a blade safe material are going to open a whole new world to swingers, small logs. If you notice where most of the swingers are at, it seems to be in areas where  logs are big. Here in the US most guys on this board that have a swing mill, live in areas of the west and the southeast. Lots of big trees, but lots of small ones grow through out the middle of these stands. We sure could use some tools that could help us utilize the small trees. Thanks to JP, I think that Swing Mills may become a more complete system. smiley_thumbsup

Fla._Deadheader


Don't overlook them 24" dia. limbs, either.  ::) ::) ;D ;D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

sandman2234

I do a lot more metal than wood. (probably a million times more), so I know what happens when a saw hits steel. However, what about aluminum? Will it stand up to the uses of a dog? I have cut aluminum with a carbide tipped sawblade, so it shouldn't hurt the blade.
    Anyone ever try that?

  I agree that some of the new composits and plastics might be better, but aren't as easily available to the homeshop type person.
    Just wondering...
   David from jax

jpgreen

I'm a do-it-yourself kind of guy, but sometimes it pays buying a quality tool. 

When you consider how much we spend on our sawmills, the potential income that they can produce, and how much more productive the dogs will make your equipment, they are a very good investment.

... :)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

highpockets

JP can you produce anyting with this dog?  If so I'll give him to you





8)
Louisiana Country boy
homemade mill, 20 h.p. Honda & 4 h.p. for hydraulics.  8 hydraulic circuits, loads, clamps, rotates, etc.

jpgreen

They say you tell the owner by the looks of his dog..  :D

What's that green stuff?...

-but what in heeck is that rusty box Dick?..  ;D ??? :D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

sandman2234

I know the answers to those questions, JP.
   All that green stuff is the weeds he has that his wonderful wife keeps mowed.
  That rusty box is a barbeque grill, built right on the premises, by the renowned Highpockets himself. Probably be a collector's item when he is gone. There are a few of them around, but usually in bad shape, because they are used so much, and he used cheap paint when he built them.
   David from jax
   

getoverit

Just thought I would post a picture and a success story....

I finished up a job today for 1000bf of syp 2x6's. I actually produced over 1500bf of 2x6's total after everything was tallied up, but the customer will get his 1000bf and I will keep 500 bf.

Behind me in the picture you can see the log bunks made of  6x6's with a 5" notch in them. Most of the pine logs I did this job with were in the range of 14 to 18" logs and the square notches worked out really good for me. I can load the log onto the bunks on the outside of the rails, and then they roll pretty easy into position. I only had one log roll over on it's side, and that was totally my fault because I wasnt paying attention to what I was doing and cut too much from the left side of the log. Otherwise, it was a stress free job with no log movement while sawing!

This is a picture of yesterday's sawing, and the pile was almost twice this big by this afternoon.

I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

solodan

Ken,
I'm guessing you were you working by yourself, by where the lumber is stacked.
Did you do some trading or did you just get to keep the 500 on top of the bill? That is usually the size log I have had problems with myself rolling over, especially when cuting 8" on the vertical pass.

getoverit

I actually cut 1000 bf for the customer, but I'm picky about the lumber I sell. I wanted it all to be virtually perfect, so if a board came off the mill with wane in it, I sae that board on the stack for me. Good lumber without wane went to him. I'll either use the lumber for myself with the small bits of wane in it, or cut the wane out of the boards and sell them for shorter stuff later. I guess I shouldnt be so picky, but I take pride in what I do and I want repeat business.

I also cut a bunch ofg 1x boards while I was cutting. The customer wanted all 2x6's, so If I couldnt get a full 2x6 but could get a 1x6 out of the log, I made the 1x6 and I'll keep it and sell it to another customer later.

The money was good for this job. I got box store prices for it, and sold it green ;D I was working alone for the most part, and that is why you see the stack of lumber right behind the mill. The wife comes out to help occasionally and that tends to speed up production. If I had nice big logs and 2 teens to offbear, I could really turn out some big production numbers with this Peterson Mill.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

chep

Gripper dogs 2.0? Still a thing? Curious as to any log dogging tricks for swingblade mills out there that have developed since this thread happened 15 years ago  8)

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