Top twenty forestry questions???

[Gordon]

Ok here is a question for all of you. What do you think the top twenty forestry questions are.

Hay there is an idea for you Jeff a FAQ area of the forum.

Have to go put up fence will check back later

Gordon

[Jeff]

Hmmm. Well I know what the top 1 is. At least tree question.

(paraphrased) "I have a walnut tree out back growing in my kids sandbox and it is huge! I know its worth thousands and thousands of dollars cause all the neighbors have told me so I know its true. Will you buy it? If not where can I sell it?"

[Tom]

Everybody's yard tree is worth thousands.  I'd hate to be an insurance adjuster after a hurricane.

Another forestry question that may be frequently asked is " What are we going to do when all the trees are gone?

[Jeff]

The answer to "what are we going to do when all the trees are gone?" is the same as what are we going to do when all the gas is gone. What are we going to do when all the aluminum is gone.

PLANT MORE TREES!

[Tom]

It amazes me to find how many folks don't know that trees are a renewable resourse. :P

[CHARLIE]

Here's tree questions.... ;D

Has the quality of construction lumber gotten worse over the past 40 years?

Are the fast growing trees planted by the major lumber companies sacrificing the quality lumber so they can get boards to market sooner?

Do you think large corporations (not just lumber companies) really and truly give a rip about the environment when it conflicts with making money?

[Frank_Pender]

Charlie.

  Question #1.  Yes.  What is now called #1 in Douglas Fir was #2 a few years ago, and so on down the grading scale.

    Question #2.  Yes.  Out in the box stores they are selling a new species called Hemfir.  I had a call for some 32' 8 x 8's a few months ago and the broker tried to sell me Hemfir.   I asked his age and he said 28.   I told him there was no suc species as Hemfir.   I wanted Douglas Fir.  He counld not ablidge my request for a quote.  I wne on to another broker.   The big boys are developing super trees that will have growth rings like a Sequoia, 3/4" to 1".   What will then happen I suspect,  is that the studs in a home will have to be close as well as the rafters and trusses.   Then we have more demand for the raw product.   The circle continues.   I mentioned on a different thread some time ago that Willamette Industries had a growing cycle of 45 years then harvest.   Now with the takeover, the new owners have a cycle of 37 years.    With the Super Trees I hear talking of 25 to 30 in a cycle, depending on soil site.

    Question #3.   I often feel that they really do not have much concern, but are forced into doing so of else there is a heft consequence in the form of dollars or prison or both.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hemfir. HHHMMMMM. I ran across a strapped bunk of hemfir 2x4's in the late 60's early 70's. It was delivered to a construction site for building a house. It rained that night and the next day, the growth rings ALL seperated. It was like a bad glue job. I talked to the builder and he said " it wasn't meant to get wet" ????  I have told this story several times, and everyone thinks I am NUTZ.  Wish I had a camera then.

[Tillaway]

The Hemfir is a lump grade sort.  It can be either Hemlock or Fir or a combination.  Hemfir sort on a westside mill is almost exclusively Hemlock.  Hemfir at a eastside, mill is all Grand or White fir.  The construction / strength properties are similar between the species so they are graded the same.

Eastside refers mills located east of the Cascade Mountain range.  Westside refers to mills West of the range and on the coast in Oregon and Washington.  

[woodman]

After i cut there logs thay ask whit do i do now, how do i sticker it ,whit should i use ,how long to dry outside inside cover no cover, and on and on.

[Brian_Bailey]

Here's one -  What bandmill's the best on the market?  Sorry, I couldn't refrain myself  ;D.

[Scott_R]

#6 How long do I have to let my logs dry before I cut them into lumber? Scott

[Tom]

You don't have to let them dry at all.  The fresher the tree is off of the stump, the less drying degrade you will be apt to find.

I want my trees as fast as I can get to them.  You will find some grace period.  Some species will hold up longer than others.  The weather permits longer grace periods.  

I don't like to let them sit.

Some sawyers that cut pine will say to let them sit 4 or 5 weeks but I think it is because they don't want to mess with the liquid sap.  It's messy but managable.

Look at a fresh plant cell as a water balloon.  You touch it and it pops. That leads to truer milling.

Look at a drying plant cell as a concrete block.  The cell wall gets harder and harder until you are smoking your blades to get it to come apart. If a blade fails to cut true, this situation will make it worse.

Why do they ask that question?  It never fails.  "I've got some Live Oak that's been down about three years now.  Probably good and dry now and ready to be sawed." 8)

Yeah, right.  It was ready to be sawed three years ago. :P :D

[Ron Wenrich]

#7  A logger paid me X amount for my timber.  Was that enough money?

Answer:  The value of a product is what a willing seller will pay to a willing buyer.  If you agreed to the price, without checking anyone else, then that was enough.  Could you have gotten more?  Should have thought about that before you signed the contract.

#8  How soon can I cut my timber after a harvest?  

Answer:  As soon as the trees start to crowd each other or until you absolutely want to liquidate your stand.  A lot will depend on how the present harvest is handled.  Cut all your good growing stock and it will be a long time until your next paying harvest.

#9  A logger has cut my timber, but he hasn't paid me yet.  How long do I have to wait to get paid?  (I just got this one last week).  

Answer:  You should have money before any trees are cut.  You shouldn't let all your trees be cut before any payment occurs.  If you don't get paid, then you will have to go to court.  You do have a contract, don't you?

#10  What will happen if I don't cut my trees?

Answer:  Your forest will continue to grow, at a slower rate and mature until some of the weaker trees begin to die off.  They will fall down and become part of the soil, and there is no monetary return.  Eventually, your forest will become a mature, climax forest - probably well past your lifetime.  These will eventually die due to insects or disease, and be replaced by a younger forest.  It is a management option.

# 11  Is red oak worth anything?

Answer:  It depends on the size, condition and location of the trees.  Small trees are worth considerably less than large trees.  Dead trees are worth less than live trees.  Trees with lots of limbs are worth much less than clean boles.  One isolated red oak on a mountain side is worth less than one that has ready access.

#12 Will logging damage my land?

Answer:  Depends on how it's done.  Logging can be destructive when you disregard things such as time of year, moisture conditions, tree length vs log length skidding, and the size of equipment used.  The fellers skill and the skidders skill will help determine how many trees are damaged during the harvest operation.

[Tom]

DanG, Ron,

Your getting them all.  I can't think fast enough.

A question I was asked by a ignorant, stupid, sit-behind-the-desk manager of the local TV Cable company when his crews drove their trucks all over my freshly planted six acres of pines as they used my driveway to service the cable on the power poles.that used my boundary for a right-of-way......

# 13.  Well, why didn't you fence them in so everybody would know you were growing something?

Answer:  Because I didn't figure that they would be going anywhere, you idiot. >:(

[smwwoody]

 The fellers skill and the skidders skill will help determine how many trees are damaged during the harvest operation.

very good point Ron as were the other ones.  so many people forget this part.
not everyone with a chainsaw in the back of thier pickup is a logger.  

as well as not everyone with mill is a sawyer

[Tom]

#14  Why have you clear cut that acreage and not left anything standing.  It looks like a war zone.  It's devastated.

Answer  Because the species that was planted on that property does not grow in uneven stands and must be planted back as a crop the same as you would a field of corn.

[Tom]

Not to be a party pooper but Ron keeps coming up with so much good stuff that I went surfing for some help.  I came up with this site immediately and was overwhelmed.  Want to be a forester?  Take a look at this.  
http://www.webcom.com/duane/womfor1.html

There is an answer page for some of the questions.

If you want to learn who they are, take a look at this:
http://www.webcom.com/duane/

[Scott_R]

I had meant #6 as humor. Scott

[Tom]

I figured you had and I accepted it as such.  I'm still confronted with the situation more times than you would ever imagine.  The funny thing is that the assumption is made that a log should be dry to  mill it.  Why don't they ask?

[woodman]

Tom do you charge more for cutting dry logs.

[Tom]

No, I never have.  That's not to say that I'm not thinking inside somewhere. :D

I have, on rare occassions, refused to cut a log that was too dry or too rotten or one that contained too much metal.  I try to do what my customers want me to do.  I give them my opinion and then trudge on.  Usually they will see what is going on as soon as the blade enters the log and stop me.

The "goodwill" for trying to please them is much greater than the satisfaction of being right.

[Scott_R]

Educating the customer can be frustrating, but worth the effort in the long run. Scott

[Jeff]

How old does a tree have to be to be considered "Old Growth"?

[CHARLIE]

I always interpreted "Old Growth" to mean slow growth in a forest by a tree that was not planted by man. Not one planted by a lumber company. The lumber companies plant those super fast growing trees that have a lot of space. If you count the rings in some of those sunken logs that were cut back a 100 years ago, you'll see it took the tree 100 years to grow an inch. To me that is old growth.    : :P

[Bro. Noble]

Speaking of old trees, wouldn't "old maid timber"  be a more accurate lable than "virgin timber" ?

Noble

[Gordon]

Now some good stuff on timber sales. Also quality of wood being sold in stores.  Haven't even started talking about replanting and thinning. Excellent weblink.

Also a few good ones on when to mill your timber.

How old is old growth, another good question to be answered.

Maybe this should be titled the top 100 instead of the top twenty.

Gordon

[Ron Scott]

Although a useful indicator of "old growth", age is often considered less important than stand structure.

[Tillaway]

Your right Ron S, except to an environmentalist.  They also think by the individual tree.  If the tree is 12" DBH and 200 years old it's "Old Growth".  If it's 35" and 50 years old it's "Old Growth" even if the stand shows no other typical signs of "Old Growth" structure.

[Ron Scott]

The true definition of old growth can be quite complex. It is not well understood by most who advocate old growth as just old aged trees.

We have  some old growth red pine plantations here that are only 35 years old. The other ecosystem factors such as geology, soil, climate, etc come into play on certain sites.

[SawBilly]

At the risk of asking a stupid question, here goes:

I talked to a local house builder the other day and conversation led to the sawmill, I told him I was cutting and storing lumber for a house of my own in the DISTANT future. He asked what I was cutting and I told him Pine for the framing....

he said "you are going to use Pine for framing??"

 He was in total shock! The local Lowes store has a stamp on the framing studs "#2 spruce/pine/fir or something like that.

Am I missing something? Pine is ok for building right?

Maybe I could buy a fir stud cheaper than a #1 Pine, but the land is mine, the trees are mine, the resulting lumber is mine, the mill is mine, the chainsaw is mine, the labor is mine, the only thing I have to buy is gas, and nails (later). I am planning on building it the "old" way, pine 2x6's for framing outside walls, 1x6 t&g for roof and 1.5x6 for subfloor...yea plywood is faster and cheaper but, the land is mine, the trees are mine, the resulting lumber is mine, the mill is mine, the chainsaw is mine, the labor is mine, the only thing I have to buy is gas, and nails (later)

Well I am also going to use the tops of the trees for knotty pine paneling.

SawBilly

[Bibbyman]

Q; How long can you saw?
A; Well,  I have an uncle that sawed well into his 80's :D

[Bro. Noble]

PINE IS FINE !
Especially our SYP.  It's much better than a lot of the western wood that finds it's way to the lumber yards in our area.  The strength of SYP is right up there with Douglas Fir.

Most of the old houses in our area are built of native yellow pine.  Some of the newer ones are built of pine that we have sawed with pleased owners in each case.  The house my son lives in was built of pine by my grandfather and was sawn on his father's mill.

FINE IS PINE !

Noble

[DouginUtah]

As a follow-up to the second and third posts by Jeff and Tom on this topic:

(The tree in my backyard is worth thousands of dollars.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1787758595

$13,995!  :D :D :D :D

[Tom]

I would sure hate to spoil that first bidders day by jumping in there and raising the price :-/

I think I'll let him have it. ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

Yes, but he will take Paypal.

[SawBilly]

Hey did anybody do the math on that 200yr old tree:

cir=15.5 ft
2 pi R = Cir
2R=diameter
diameter=cir/pi (3.14)
dia=15.5/3.14

equals a whopping  4.94 feet :D on the big end, probably bark to bark since they measured circumfrence!!!!!!

It would be 4.14 feet on the little end.
How many board feet can you get out of that 16' log

That's a pretty big log!

[Paschale]

#15 (I think)  I've got some land--What kind of tree should I plant in order to be able to harvest for income when I retire?

This is a question I've asked myself on the board here, and have seen several others ask as well.   If I remember correctly, most people told me to plant a fast growing pine since if someone wanted to harvest hardwood when he retired, those trees would need to be planted while the guy was still crawling!

[Andre]

That would be 4.93 feet on the big end and 4.14 feet on the little end.  You switched units someplace. ;)
I figure about 6 or 7 dollars per board foot, note that the reserve price has not been met.

[Jeff]

Too funny.
 There is not a bid yet. First bid is the sellers. Could it be it comes with a beautiful neked environmentalist that had a tree house in the branches? :D I'd bid $13.95 to see it

[SawBilly]

Andre,
My math may need some work, but the 'puter skills seem ok ;D

Welcome to the Forum

[Jeff]

If they sell that tree for enough, they could bid on this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=980451705

 :D

[Gordon]

Here is a question on spacing that I found on a very recent weblink. Ok here goes see if you have the correct answers.

A common recommendation for planting tree seedings is to plant 1,000 seedlings per acre at a 6 foot by 7 foot spacing (trees 6 feet apart in rows 7 feet apart). If I have a bundle containing exactly 1,000 tree seedings and I measure carefully to space the trees 6 X 7 feet, will I be able to plant my entire acre or will I have tree seedlings left over? I will be short or over by how many seedlings? How many seedlings will I require per acre if I decide to instead plant the trees at an 8' X 8' spacing?

Gordon

[Ron Scott]

You will need 1037 seedlings so you will be 37 short. If you plant on a 8x8 spacing you will need 680 seedlings.

[Bro. Noble]

Better go with the 8x8 because 1000 trees / acre is too thick and requires thinning before the trees are big enough to sell for any purpose.  Besides with a 6x7 spacing 1000 trees would only plant 42000 sq ft. and there are 43,560 sq ft in a flatland acre.  Around here an acre is often more like 60,000 sq. ft.  Maybe it would be best to plant about a bundle and a half per hectar.

Now if you get 80% survival  and thin down to 10% of that in the next 200 years and they sell for 13,950 each it won't do you much good.  Inflation will have increased the price of jockstraps to about a grand per each.

Forget the DanG trees and buy those JOCKSTRAPS !!!

Noble

[woodman]

Noble i like your math  

[Jeff]

We do have a tree spacing calculator in the tool box. Link to the left.

[WV_hillbilly]

I always thought the rule of thumb was its not what something is worth its what someone is willing to pay for it .If someone would even bid on that live oak theY have to much money any ways and not enough brain cells left to think clearly. Isn,t there an old saying about seperating a fool from his money? :

hillbilly   :D :D

[Ron Scott]

Determine the objectives for the species bieng planted and then determine your spacing ie: wildlife cover, wind protection, timber, recreation, aesthetics, Christmas trees, endangered species habitat etc.

One might even want to vary the spacing some based on the landscape factor of the area considered.

[Ron Wenrich]

For inquiring minds:

The live oak log has 2025 bf Doyle scale, 1795 bf Scribner scale and 1843 bf International scale.  Price ranges from $6.91/bf to $7.80, depending on log scale.  Footage computed from the toolbox, at the right.

As Ron S stated, the number of trees is 1037 trees/acre.  Again, from the toolbox.

[Saki]

Sorry Guys, I can't resist. Had this alot when I worked at a nature center in my college years.

Ring, Ring. (me) Hello, Nature center, may I help you?

(them) Yeah, I got this tree in my backyard and I was wondering what kind it is.

(me) Well, I will try to help you, what can you tell me about it, for example, how large, what kind of leaves or needles does it have Etc, Etc, Etc.

(them) Well, it isn't a great big tree, but its not little either. The leaves are green and sort of round, but might have a little point on them in places, and the bark is kind of dark grey, not real dark, not real light, not real smooth, but not real rough.

(me) Well, can you be a little more specific, from your description so far, there are a lot of things it could still be .


AND MY SUGGESTION FOR THE MOST COMMONLY ASKED QUESTION IS......


(them) Don't you know? You're supposed to be the forester. :D :D :D

[Gordon]

Dang you guys are good, hit the numbers right on the head for trees per acre. That toolbox on the left sidebar sure does have some handy stuff in it.




Or another good question is---How is a timber contract inportant and why? Any takers on this one?

Gordon

[Ron Scott]

A contract establishes agreement between the purchaser and the seller and spells out the terms and specifications as to how the timber is to be harvested and what performance is expected from the purchaser.

With a contract, the seller can manage the timber harvest to meet their intended objectives. Without a contract, the seller is at the mercy of the logger and gives them their choice of what they want without any terms to meet best mangement practices on their timber land.

Having a contract is just good common sense if you value your timber and its associated resource values.

[Ron Wenrich]

Tree ID

We have a local tree trimmer who is pretty good with tree identification.  One little old lady asked him what type of tree was in her backyard.

He looked the tree over and didn't have a clue.  But, he had to give her an answer, since he was a tree expert.  Not to look the fool, he answered "Why, lady, that's a wooden tree".

She said "Thank you.  I've always wondered what it was, now I know".

Contracts

Contracts are only worth as much as the people signing on the dotted line.  I've seen contracts that look good, but payment schedules are a little fuzzy.  

If the buyer doesn't want to put money up front, I'd walk away from the deal.  They have no risk.  If there is no bond or cash to recover damages, the buyer has even less risk.

Before harvests of any type, research who is doing your work.  Don't rely on past clients, since referrals will only be on good jobs.  

If you have to take things to court, you end up losing time and money.  And, there still is no guarantee you will get paid.

[Gordon]

Ok here are a couple of simple questions dealing with gps uses and forestry related surveys.

As a landowner can I use my gps to mark out my boundries before I have my land timbered? If I do decide to use it how accurate is it? Does it work better at some times of the day than others? What are some other uses that a gps might come in handy? Like point sampling or to mark out 10 or 20 acre tracts.

Any takers?

Gordon

[Ron Scott]

A GPS Unit will do all of the above, but it depends upon the quality of the Unit one has and its specific software programs. One can map points, lines, and areas quickly and easily. A survey grade unit is best for accuracy rather than one of the many sportsman models on the market though they are improving right along.

I'd recommend at least a Trimble GeoExplorer 3 handheld GPS. Also get trained in their use. It's amazing what you can do with them.