Hypothetical suggestions to improve portable sawmill production.

[woodbowl]

Plop ... zipp ... flip ... blam .............. You've seen it! Fast moving components in various industries, manipulating the work piece through different stages of production. Some are done with CNC, others with a manual control panel. Some use hydraulics, some use pneumatics and others use servos on lenear tracks. Stop switches, robotics and eyeball techniques work seperately as well as together to produce an accurate product. Some are so fast it make your head spin.
    Hydraulics are fast unless you demand something faster. Power, strength and other factors sometimes force choices in a happy medium area.
    Every year it seems, a portable sawmill with more and more taylored devices are being introduced to save steps and produce more lumber.  8)
   Have you ever had a good idea about how to make something work better and someone across the room said, well that's crazy, it won't work? Yes, it was a little crazy, new, unproven and hypothetical, but A few years later it appears on the market and is the latest rave.
   People with good ideas have a starting point in their thinking that seems absurd and ridiculous. They have the mental ability to enrich the imagination and suspend floating objects in space while flying around them in 3D to observe, calculate and make corrections to their function. In the end, it is no longer a theory or hypothetical situation, but rather a practical solution to an old nagging problem or innovation that opens more doors to more ingenious ideas.
    Do you have ideas that are of this nature? They may seem silly now, but other ideas from other sources can disprove the notion and suddenly it becomes realistic.

[Bibbyman]

I've always got ideas.  Most of them don't get any further than that.  But we've put some of them to practice.

One major problem in the sawmill industry – especially those of us on the small side – is that there are too many variables and verity.  If you were just making one thing and the raw material was always a standard commodity, it'd be an easy task to automate and streamline production.

I watch a guy sawing out rail road ties.  His setup was really good and efficient.  But he only bought tie logs and nothing else.  If he had to saw 16" 2x6s,  he'd be screwed. All of his setup to saw rail road ties would be in the way. For example, his edger would be way too close to the mill and he'd not have room to stack lumber, edgings, and slabs that long.  I don't know if his front door would allow him to bring a 16' log into the mill.

There is a stave mill up the road (a ways up the road) and they won't allow anyone to tour the "factory" because of all the one of a kind special built machines and processes they use to make staves.  I've heard from some that have been inside that it's highly automated. 

[Ron Wenrich]

I've had lots of good ideas.  I've also been fortunate to have a fabricator that can bring them on line.  He's a top notch welder, and he knows hydraulics inside and out. 

Mine have been along the lines of speeding things up.  We have put on accelerators on the forward jog of the setworks to speed it up when not setting, we have put switches in to eliminate dogs from running went not needed (speeds up hydraulics), we have put in trip switches to lessen the time a slab is on the conveyor.

Other things we are looking at is an optimizer for a vertical edger and automation of the carriage where it reverses on its own, feed speed which is done by a pedal instead of a joy stick, and some other repetitive motions.

Will it work on all mills?  It'll work, but it might not have the same results.  Improvements almost have to be made on a mill to mill basis.  Its hard to have one size fits all.

[Kirk_Allen]

I dont have pics YET but I have been told by several folks there is a WM owner east of me about an hour that has a LT40 with TWO cutting heads.  He uses one head to make the cant and once the cant is made he uses the two heads to cut.  Two baords in one pass.  He has claimed it almost doubled his production.

I hope to get over that way in the next month or so and meet the guy and get some pics. 

[Bibbyman]

One of the most compact automated mills I've ever seen operate was a Woodland.  It was set up at a forestry show.  If I remember right the bandsaw head moved and the log set there.  The headblacks set at an angle and the saw head was also set at, I'd say, a 30 degrees off of vertical. 

The slab would fall off onto a set of rollers and there was a "kicker" chain that could be switched on to run the slab sideways into a rack. 

When a flitch was made, it'd be pushed back into a double blade edger that was built into the system.  The sawyer would pitch the edgings into a rack and the board would go on to some kind of arm arrangement that would stack or help stack the board.

Boards would just be pushed through the edger and onto the stack.

If I remember right,  the blade was at least 2" wide.  The sawhead engine was about a 40 hp Kubota.  It had another engine on the edger and maybe a third running hydraulics.

They were having some problems keeping something going and didn't run it much.  I did get to see it saw one log.  The sawyer stood behind a panel that had more buttons and levers than the space shuttle.  He looked like he was running a pinball machine.

There are a few Woodlands around. Maybe someone out there has one and can tell more about this system.

[Ron Wenrich]

I did get to see one at a sawmill show many years ago.  Of all the bandmills, the Woodland was the most productive that I've seen.  But, if I recall, they were set on upright, not at an angle.

Sanborn makes a Mini-Max mill that is set at an angle.  That runs a wide blade, if I'm not mistaken.  Also, very productive, and there isn't any mess. 

[jpgreen]

Ideas are the start, then on to the big leap in actually building it.  But the biggy in the whole equation is the market, and whether it's feasable to take it further.

It takes a combination of things to make that happen, and then be sucessfull. You have the great idea, and it works but...

How difficult and labor intensive is it to build?

How much do materials cost?

What machinery investment is needed?

Can it be sold enough to make a profit at the retail and wholesale level?

Is there a need, and will anyone buy it?

What is the size of the market, and is there enough potential buyers?

Will the liability insurance cost be reasonable?

What does it cost to ship?

Can your competition (including the Chinese) make your product and under cut you?

All it takes is one or more of these items to cause a problem, and make the whole thing a waste of time and become a dark hole that sucks up a bunch of you and your investors money.

I've had many of an idea, and some of them I went through the whole process only to find out I was lacking one of the items above.  I guess that's how you learn.

It's fantastic when all those things come together, but then you have to have the orginization skills and CAPITAL to make it happen.  Eventhough we are talking about improving sawmills, the improvement still has to meet this criteria and more.

..........

[woodbowl]

I still haven't figured out why the Woodland didn't make it. It was a true one man mill in my opinion. I know the things that I didn't like about it but it shouldn't have anything to do with the broad scope of the market.
   Since I wanted to remain portable, it would be a chore to move. If I remember right, it was over 8' wide and may have been too wide to go down the road with out a permit. I've heard reports of people cutting a consistant 2000 - 2500 BF per day with one man. I guess I do expect more production out of it since it has the conveyor, aligment and edger capabilities.
   Does anyone know why this seeming good arrangment of smart components doesn't cut much more BF in a days time?

[Tom]

.....coffee breaks and ....Mary's Old Farts.

Most of us with sawmills look forward to turning the key off and visiting even to the detriment of production schedules.  I think it has something to do with the reason we work for ourselves.  Most of these sawmills will probably produce more than we allow.  :D :D

[Bibbyman]

I can only speculate but I figure Woodland only had one person running it and when he got to the end, so did the company.  There are a few around still running and a few pop up in the sale ads.

Why it wasn't a bigger success I'd guess it'd be because of the "too's".

Too complicated.

Too radical a design from other band mills.

Too optimized for too small a range of applications.

I don't know the price but it may have been too expensive for bandmill of that time.

[Ron Wenrich]

I looked into them about 10 years ago.  They were comparable to a Mizer in costs.  I heard production to be more in the 3500 bf range.

I don't think they have a radical design.  The only thing radical, as compared to a circle mill, is that the head moves and the carriage is stationery.  Wood Mizer and the others have the radical design change.

I think advertising is probably what did them in.  You need several inputs to get to the tipping point of making an idea or product sell.  They were missing a few of those elements.  Primarily salesmen and connectors.

[Bibbyman]

I don't think they have a radical design.  The only thing radical, as compared to a circle mill, is that the head moves and the carriage is stationery.  Wood Mizer and the others have the radical design change.

Maybe from a circle mill point of view but I compared it to other "band mills" - meaning portable band mills like WM, Baker, TK, etc.

Maybe the Woodland was just too much for the average weekend sawyer and didn't look mobile enough for the on the road custom sawyer?  I do remember seeing their ads in the trades and at the forestry shows (maybe on local ones as they were a Missouri based company – as I remember.)

And at that time,  I'd think it'd be very difficult to sell a band mill to replace a commercial circle mill.   It's only been a few years that Wood-Mizer has been able to place their LT300 systems where circle headrigs have been.  Now Baker has introduced their Blue Streak.



Wood-Mizer LT300



LT300 control station.

Now there are two systems that address higher production through automation – to some point.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've watched those newer mills at a few shows.  They're faster than the older mills, but still not as fast as a conventional circle mill or a big band.  They are still about half of what I can get.  Large mills still used a circle mill for breakdown and then use a resaw.  The best I have sawn on my circle mill is about 2200 bf/hr.  Avg is probably around 1200 bf/hr.  That's a single headrig with vertical edger, no resaw.

The other problem we have is that some of our markets will not accept lumber from those smaller mills.  Its not that they can't produce the quality, but too many guys went out and sold lumber that was of an inferior cut.  So, some of the buyers said "circle cut lumber only".  A lot had to do with waves and planing.  It'll be hard to reopen that marketplace.

Most commercial millers don't show up at those shows, couldn't tell you much about Wood-Mizer or Baker or anyone else.  Its a market that is a very tough nut to crack, at least here in the east.  Portability is not a factor for this market.

[Bibbyman]

Most commercial millers don't show up at those shows, couldn't tell you much about Wood-Mizer or Baker or anyone else.  Its a market that is a very tough nut to crack, at least here in the east.  Portability is not a factor for this market.

We bought a piece of machinery from a mill down near where Tom-In-Missouri lives.  They were down for repairs when we got there so we had a good tour of the place.  Open faced shed with a 1950's vintage circle mill with mends and welds all over it.  All their equipment was pretty much home-made. They had an edger and gang re-saw, blower and chipper but no band equipment.  It looked like a welder and cutting torch was in constant use.  I asked them if they'd ever seen a Baker sawmill.  They said they've seen the place and heard of someone that had one but were at a loss as to if anyone had ever seen a pieces of their equipment. 

You think maybe they were pulling my leg?

[woodbowl]

Quote >>>   The best I have sawn on my circle mill is about 2200 bf/hr.  Avg is probably around 1200 bf/hr.  That's a single headrig with vertical edger, no resaw.

==========================================

I love the way a circle mill can fly back and forth with out much or any hesitation between cuts.  What I would like to know is, how does the operator know where to start his first cut because when the log rolls up,.... it's BLAM .... log dogged and set while moving (?? ??) and then it starts heading for the blade. Second cut is a violent forward 90° flip that throws the log a foot or more away from the headrig, then it's slammed back to the headrig, dogged, set, and heading for the blade again all in seconds.
     Here is one of Jeffs clips he took showing the speed of the cuts.

https://forestryforum.com/media/cmc.mpg

So ......... how do you know where to set the log on the first cut with a side view such as this?

[jpgreen]

Man that thing is movin'..  ;D

[tnlogger]

 I would say years and years of practice  :D
and a very good computor set works  ;)

[leweee]

....and deep pockets.....speed cost money, how fast do you want to go ??? :D :D :D

[Ron Wenrich]

Usually, you're looking to put the defect on the edge of your opening face, then start cutting.  On a really good log, you won't have any defect, so that doesn't affect you too much.  On a really poor log, you're not looking at grade, but at blocking.  After a million logs, you get to have a pretty good idea where you can start and where to stop.

Some guys say you can saw for production or for grade, but not both.  I disagree with that, but there are tradeoffs on both sides. 

Some guys will feed their mills really fast.  I always found that running too fast gives you miscuts.  The saw will veer one way or the other.  One miscut and you have pretty well lost the profit in the log. 

As for knowing where to start on a log, usually we are sawing for a specific piece of blocking.  I know what I'm going to cut out of the heart when the log roles onto the carriage.  After opening up sides 1 and 2, I will know if that's the right decision.  I always have a backup plan.  Last option is the chipper.   :D

So, you have to build a stack.  I am now doing it with a computer.  But, I have done it in my head for a number of decades.  You just get to know your numbers so you can remember where to start and where you will stop.

On some logs I won't build a stack.  I will open to a 6" face, and saw.  Then, take a shim cut to size up the blocking.  Sometimes you lose a 4" board, but you gain in grade, unless you are selling on the select grade.

The log dictates what you are going to cut.  You just have to know what your constraints are.  And you figure that out as the log is sitting on the log deck.  I don't chase after low grade lumber.  I have been burnt too often to worry about 2 Com lumber.

[Bibbyman]

As with any discipline one gets better by applying oneself to improve, getting coaching, watching others, and practice, practice, practice.  Then I'm sure everyone levels out at their peak of proficiency.  For example, years ago I took up handgun competition – mainly police type combat shooting.  I started out about average as I'd shot quite a bit before I started to compete with others.  I learned from them and applied myself to improve and practiced a great deal. While I improved a great deal and often competed near the top,  I never did come in first or even second.  I'd just maxed out on my agility and reflex time.  No amount of equipment or practice was going to make up for my limits.  Younger guys with less years of experience started to pass me up.  It was time to hang up my guns.

I think my analogy applies when you're talking about the sawyer making a difference in the production rate.  It takes dexterity, concentration, and quick judgment to saw faster than the next guy and still produce good lumber.

I've watched people work over the years and some plod along at a steady pace and there was nothing you can do to speed them up.     

On our Wood-Mizer LT40 Super,  I can pretty much roll a log on to the bed rails, push it up to the back supports, turn to adjust for the face I want to open up, level with toe board, engage the clutch, lower/raise the head to make opening face and enter the cut about as fast as you can read this in detail.  MOST of the time I've made a good opening face – one out of ten I'm too shallow and have to recut and maybe half that many times I've made too fat a slab.

Mary is FAR more meticulous with her log leveling and makes fewer miscuts. 

On grade lumber I shoot for a 4" x 5' minimum face.  On most of our farm lumber,  I shoot for as tight a 6"x8' face as I can.  We can't chase people fast enough to get them to buy a 4" wide board so we don't make many.

A laser would help a lot I think in making that opening face.

The head on our Wood-Mizer Super returns something like twice as fast as the standard mills – I think 200 feet per minute – too fast to walk backwards behind.  The speed forward is dictated by sawing conditions.

The Accuset does a good job of doing the "stacking" math in pattern mode.  It even includes the kerf in the calculations.

[woodbowl]

It seems that there is a predetermined outside location on the log that is read by the arm that slams the log back to the head. If the arm pushes the log and the log pushes the floating head block and the arm hits an adjustable stop an inch or so before the log is clear of the blade line and the log is dogged ..........   the log would be ready to cut. This may not be the way it's done, but I think it will work.  :