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GPS Question?

Started by shopteacher, March 12, 2006, 12:55:34 PM

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shopteacher

On my deed are the co-ordinates  for the property boundry. I wanted to have it surveyed, but they wanted about as much as the propertys worth. :-[ Could you use a GPS to find the points on the deed?  If so what would the best brand and model to get?
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

SwampDonkey

A survey grade GPS would be worth more than the survey. ;) I don't recommend a consumer model GPS to mark corners unless you have consent from adjacent owners. Then what about the side lines between the corners? I do know that some folks selling land won't have it surveyed and all you get is the paperwork. I can't imagine selling land with the boundaries not marked. Last year we ran into a lot that was suppose to be 75 acres, no lines marked and when the logger , at his expense, had it surveyed it was 25 acres less than some old outdated deed. On the farm, we had about two miles run 2 years ago and it only cost $750, before we sold it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

shopteacher

SD: I have a 5 acre parcel and that sits between 2 roads.  The estimate to survey it was 1750.00. I ask the surveyor what he was going to use as a starting reference and he said the fence post near the road. I said "how do you know if the post is in the right place" and his reply was " Well, there usually right". 
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

SwampDonkey

Walk away ! :o Although 'sometimes' the fence is the line, I've seen some fences in the woods that were just a cutoff to keep the cattle from going further, not actually the line. Line fences along fields are hard to dispute, they've been there in place for 4 or more generations on farms around here and fields are farmed on either side of the line fence.

Surveyors charge more for those house lots than they do woodland in my experience. Still cheaper to have it surveyed and done proper by a reg. land surveyor. We don't need more individuals practicing their own surveys, sometimes not even compassed. I've seen some land owners mark lines and they just follow the peek of the hill instead of a straight line on an azimuth.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Fla._Deadheader


Call another Surveyor. Even out in the outback of Arkansas, where I lived, there was a "1 mile" or "Section" corner, that was the starting point for "finding" the land. 

Gotta be a permanent corner somewhere. Ask yer old timer neighbors, unless they are the reason you're surveying.  ::) ::) :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Riles

A GPS and a metal detector should get you to the corners if they put pins in the last time it was surveyed.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

logwalker

Well Shopteacher, I have some experience with GPS and also I am a sort of amateur surveyor. I too take offence with the ridiculous quotes for small jobs.

It all depends on a couple things. What is your acceptable degree of error? Most areas in the US are covered by the  WAAS, wide area augmentation system, This is a seperate signal that gives a correction for the Original GPS signal. It allows a WAAS capable unit to correct itself down to less than 9' for 95% of the time. If you were to find the corner and let the unit settle for a period of several minutes it will get even closer.

And then you have to look at the accuracy of your corner data. That is where the rub generally lies. You say that you have co-ordinates for your corners. Where did they come from. If there are recent surveys in your area your county should be able to help you access them. If you could have the Surveyor create some accurate lat/lon numbers you could go right to the corners. There are other ways to generate those points also.

There are a lot of variables to consider. But it can be like a treasure hunt too. It requires that you do a lot of footwork and research. That is where the high quotes come from. The surveyor does not know what he will find for data and he leaves himself some wiggle room. It is natural. But after he has been working an area for a while he begins to make a good return because all the combined surveys create a much better database for him to work from.

Definatly try it yourself and enjoy the pursuit. Hopefully you have some old Iron rods or piles of rock or some other monument to find.

If you want fax me a copy of your legal description and I will try to advise you on the best approach. I do enjoy it. LW
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Fla._Deadheader


What about the "terraserver" website ??  That allows you to zoom in on any location, and maybe you could see something in an aerial view that would give you some good reference points , Co-ordinates ??
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

SwampDonkey

You guys are stepping into territory where some RPLSA's in some juridictions would string you up by the boot laces. Best beware of your local laws regarding tresspass and legal surveys I think. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

beenthere

Does an RPLSA stand for something? ??? ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

As far as WAAS and GPS, it's not even acceptable to DNR or forestry companies up here and to think just 7 years ago we were measuring with string box and compass.  ::) If it's not differentially corrected from base data then forget it, you can't even talk to them. ;)

RPLSA = Registered Professional Land Surveyor's Association
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

shopteacher

There is no dispute or anything of that nature. I would like to place or replace some fencing and would like to know where the property lines are.  I have a survey map which shows map my property along with the property the survey was commissioned for.  The pins are shown to be in the center of the road.  The problem around here is that once being a major steel producing area the road bed contained a lot of slag from the furnaces which contain a lot of residual iron.  I've been told you can't find the pins with a metal detector.  Maybe true maybe not but I think that will be my next step.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

SwampDonkey

If you can't find them with a metal detector, then they probably are not there or they may be aluminum, or were just wooden stakes. They usually are a piece or steal rod drove about 4 feet in the ground with the surveyors name and his registered id number when he joined the surveyor's association. Sometimes this info is etched in plastic or aluminum on top of the pin. Never heard of a surveyor putting a property pin in the middle of a road unless you own it or something.  We have 33 foot setbacks for right-of-way from road centre to far edge of ditch. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Sawyerfortyish

We did a logging job that had a recent survey done (6 months before)  We walked it with the land owner but were unable to find any land marks for the one side. My brother asked a friend that is a surveyor to look at the survey map and help us find the line. First words out of his mouth was that the survey didn't close and wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. The land owner just paid almost 5 grand for that survey. What I mean by not closing is when you start at point A on paper the angles and cordinates of a deed will bring you around in a circle and back to starting point A. This map when measured with surveying instruments did not come back around to a closed circle. Once the landowner had his surveyor correct it our surveyor was able to help us locate the line. It wasn't even close to where we guessed it was. Good thing we had that one surveyed.

shopteacher

Here the property line goes to the middle of the road, if it's bordered bya road or street, and the right -a-way goes half on each side of it.  The road going up in front of my place is 24" right-a-way so 12" from the center each side. The map shows the pins in the middle of the upper and lower road. The map is registered and has the surveyors seal attached.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

SwampDonkey

The new 4-lane here has the right-of-way, then they have an additional 30 meter set back from there. I suppose it's to maintain a wooded corridor, I don't know what else it would mean. They have to leave a corridor so the moose and deer can leep out to get blind sided by traffic I guess.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

shopteacher, I wonder why they put the property bounds out in the road. You can't build a house or garden in the middle of the road.  ::) Maybe it was part of the property and great grand dad gave right-of-way to some owner in behind. On the farm here we had a road my great grand dad granted as right-of-way, but we owned the land and it was named the Owens Road by the government, after great grand dad. That instance I could see happening. But, any government built road is public access here (or crown reserved which may not even be built road) with 33 foot right-of-way, either side of the centre line, pins at the edge of the right-of-way.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

maple flats

In many jurisdictions it is illegal for anyone to mark a boundry line except a licensed land surveyor. If you mark your own and are caught it could be major penalties time. You are not legally allowed to represent a line as a legal boundry unless you have the license. This also applies to blaze marks thru a woods, they must be done by a surveyor. I have also seen surveys done by different surveyors who almost never agree with the next one nor the previous one. In my woods I had them surveyed and pins set at the corners. A few years later the adjoining landowner was getting his surveyed on 2 shared boundries, His survey showed a no man's land of about 4' on one line and over 15' on another side. Never did get this solved yet. Some things are ok to do your self, but marking property lines ranks along with doing your own surgery in my book. BUT do get another price quote. On surveys there is often a huge variation in prices. I sometimes find a surveyor who has recently done an adjoining line to use because he has gone thru the time and research to get the starting point. I would not trust the one who says he starts at the fence because they are usually right. He sounds like a formula for trouble.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

shopteacher

   I think it's so if you need to find your pins they'll be under 12" of blacktop.  Course the DOT is so stupid they have the road culverts and basins on the up hill side of the road.  Ever see water run uphill?  ??? In their defense I guess they're saving us money on cleaning and flushing the basins out cause nothing ever goes in them. ::)
   I thought if a GPS was accurate enough I could find the pins with it.  However, I see looking at the map all the points are in relation to each other.  Starting with one and working off it at an angle and number of feet. So the co-ordinates on the map are not a particular point on earth but a direction from one point to another.
 
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

SwampDonkey

That's what I was thinking to. You'de have to have the latitude and longitude to know where it sits exactly. There are usually benchmarks nearby to reference from. A surveyor will set up his base GPS unit over a known point and use a rover GPS to survey the property. That's if he's graduated from the  laser theodolite and reflector.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Fla._Deadheader


Try playing with the sensitivity on the detector. Might get a "fuzzy" sound off them iron scraps. A solid steel pin should get you a GOOD STRONG SOUND. Once ya get a good "hit" turn the coil on edge and pinpoint with it.  ;) :)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

logwalker

Shopteacher,

Do you have any known property corners that you feel confidant about. As far as running your own property lines, I have done it on every piece of land I have owned and I have never been more than a couple inches either way when later checked by a "lcensed" surveyor. But if you don't know what you are doing than you should not go forward until you do. But... surveying is not black magic. It can be done by anybody that has some basic math skills, a local county office with good records and it doesn't hurt to have a accurate transit. Mine is accurate to 5 seconds of one degree. That is 1/720th of a degree. After a quarter of a mile it may be off 1/2" or so.

If it was mine what I would do is read the "legal" and get a feel for where it starts and stops. There is always a referance point to get yourself started. From there you measure precise angles and distances until you return to the point of beginning.

And you don't need to be licensed to run your on lines. Not around here at least. You will be responsible for tresspassing if you are wrong of course.
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Faron

I have done a little expermenting with my GPS receiver.  I marked the corners with waypoints on a wooded tract.  I then set up a "go to" from one corner to the next.  That marks a straight line on your receiver from one point to the next.  I could then go anywhere along that line, and get close to the boundary.  From there I could kick around and find the old boundary fence, which was down and covered by leaves.  That said, I wouldn't build a fence just based on my GPS receiver.  You might, however, follow those co-ordinates and get close enough to find the pins.  I don't know if it is true in all states, but here most descriptions start in the center of the road.  I actually own to the center of the road, but the county, or state if a state road, owns an easement.  If the road ever is abandoned, as many have over the years, I can reclaim and actually build a fence down the roadbed.  On the south side of my place, the road makes a double curve.  Naturally, the road doesn't now make a strong right angle, but a curve.  Because of this, I own a small triangle, say 25 feet to a side, on the other side of the road.  I haven't figured out how to use this piece of prime property, except maybe erect a toll booth and charge the neighbors entrance to their property through mine. ;)
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

thurlow

Around "here", property lines follow the center of all (local) roads.  Gov't just has a right-of-way; if road is ever abandoned,  usage reverts to property owner.   There's an old road bed not 400 yds from my house;  I own to the center of it.  Since an old fence was on my side of the road,  the owner on the other side tried to claim the whole road;  had to  get a lawyer to set him straight.  Where the property corners in the center of the road, it is marked with (usually) a cotton-picker spindle driven in the center line.  Roads in question are all blacktop; if they were concrete, surveyor would use iron stake at edge of right-of-way.........
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Faron

Abandoned railway right of ways are supposed to be treated the same way- ownership should revert to the property owner.  It has become an issue because some folks want to ignore the law and have local government take over the right of ways and turn them into walking and biking paths. 
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

beenthere

They did that (turned rail ROW into trails) and now the power company wants to use those corridors for new power lines. What an uproar from the 'enviro's who don't want their corridor ruined by high lines.

What goes around doesn't come around the same. I guess.  ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

The end of my road ends up in the middle of dad's old farm. No one has lived up there in over 40 years, but the government maintains a bridge crossing the brook and they grade it every year. I've never heard of any abandoned road ever reverting back to local ownership, it stays with the crown. We have crown reserved roads that are not built where you can apply to build a road to land you own. Some surveyors will run property lines in the centre of that crown reserve, but the neighboring owners don't have title to that. In our provincial registry, if you use Internet Explorer and go to their map pages. Click on that line and you'll see it has an ID number in the database owned by the government. So if anyone has a fence on that crown reserve, I could bulldoze it while building my road. Of course the exact right-of-way would have to be surveyed and all disputes settled with neighbors.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

shopteacher

Just like to thank all for your thoughts and ideas.  It has given me a lot to consider and think about.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

maple flats

Not all old railroad beds revert to original adjoining properties. I bought a section of one several years ago on a tax sale, tried to get an abstract drawn up and the abstract company started but said they could not search it out and kept comming to dead ends. I then went to the county records at the county seat and in about 8 hours of research found the missing links and gave the info to a different abstract company. They drew up an abstract for the parcel and I then sold it with warranty dead for a handsome profit after owning it about 4 years and taking a fair amount of timber off the parcel. The railroad portion was 2.1 acres and the total parcel was 6.7 acres. I just really cleaned up a parcel made up of 4 or 5 old deeds that had been lost for taxes numerous times but buyers could never build on them because they were all messed up in the titles and no lender would touch them. After I combined the pieces into one parcel with warranty deed it now has a home and a garage on it and the old rr bed can not be recognised as such any more, just looks like lawn and home. It did help that I knew a little about the land in that my dad grew up on a farm adjacent to it and even though he had alsheimers he still remembered who was there in the early 1920's. This gave me the link I needed.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

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