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E85 Fuel

Started by wesdor, March 07, 2006, 10:01:12 PM

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wesdor

We have a car that accepts E85 fuel and I have been waiting for a warm spell to give it a try.  I filled up a couple of days ago and have some preliminary figures.

Around here we are paying $2.29 for regular gas and the E85 cost $1.84.  As most of you know, there is a power loss with the E85 and I have gone from 21 to 17 mpg.  Calculating that out gives me a regular gas cost of $.10904 per mile and an E85 cost of $.10823.

From my point of view that is close enough to call equal.  I suppose the biggest question to me is whether I want to support a local farmer or some sheik in the middle east.

BTW - an interesting article originating in Brazil was carried in a recent column in the British newspaper Guardian. 

Jeff, I think it is OK to link to their story?  right?  If not, please delete the link.

Brazilian fuel

Bill

Wesdor

I've been kind of following the alternative fuel thing since '73 when buying a woodstove got me into the fire wood cutting habit.

Good article from Brazil about alternative energy linked to your post. I'm working up to a passive solar home slow but sure. For the shorter term I've been keen on diesel with an interest in biodiesel or alcohol/ethanol. Of the two I've found a couple things that are new to me.

Please take these with a grain of salt as I'm trying to remember them from a crowded memory.
Biodiesel apparently takes about about 1 acre of corn/soybeans to get 100 gallons but 1 acre of algae produces about 3500 gallons. And then I saw something about one of the plains states governors pushing diesel production from coal - especially since all the pollutants would be removed at production - sounds cool and we're supposed to be the Saudi Arabia of coal.
Ethanol is here and now at about 10-20% to 90-80% gas though I don't know what the yields are per acre per crop.

What I heard that I didn't like was that some places ( not the whole US I hope ) like Mass won't allow diesel sales  - because they are promoting a switch to ethanol.

Not quite sure I follow why the prices between gas and E85 works out to be about equal - curious ?

Back on task - I'd be firmly in the camp that we have alot of farmers here that can grow sugar cane/sugar beets/corn, heck even algae, let's get to it . . .


WeeksvilleWoodWorx

Bill the price turns out to be equal because of the loss of fuel economy. Wedsor paid 20% less for E85 but also loss 20% of his MPG. I vote for E85 though! Corn is renewable!
Brian - 2004 LT40HDG28 owner.

crtreedude

Remembering when I was in the USA - wouldn't it be wonderful if someone could figure out a way to harvest the way too abundant weeds in some of the waterway due to fertilizer runoff and make it into fuel and compost? Am I naive here - or did I just give someone up there a million dollar idea.  ;)

I bet you could get PAID to harvest the stuff!
So, how did I end up here anyway?

thedeeredude

There's a guy around here who has a woodstove in the back of his truck and he has a gasifier(?) to collect the methane.  He runs his pickup off that alone I think.

wesdor

Glad we are on this topic again.  I am in that group of people who feel that we need to find more forms of renewable energy. 

Weeksville, you are correct, the price is about equal.  Although if regular gas moves up in price there might be a very slight advantage (emphasis on very slight).

Bill,  I've heard some of the same kinds of things about algae and other "weed plants".  Somewhere there was an article about harvesting Kudzo (??) down south for energy.  As I recall, that stuff grows all over the place and is a real nuisance.  You brought up building a passive solar home - we just finished our second one this past November.  I'm happy to report that the angle of the sun is working as planned.  We had the sun in more than halfway into the house on Decembe 21 and it is retreating rapidly at this time.  By summer there will be no direct sun coming into the house.  We also used 2x6 construction and lots of insulation.  Due to our hot and humid summers we also put in a whole house fan.  Perhaps next year at this time I'll be able to provide accurate figues on energy costs.

jrokusek

I love alternative fuels!  I'm always looking to try and do something a bit different, sometimes with success, sometimes not. 

There is one major drawback to ethanol that isn't normally publicized.  I live in South Dakota where there are more ethanol plants than you can shake a stick at.  Ethanol is very popular here - especially with the politicians.  Most people don't know that it takes a MASSIVE amount of natural gas to make ethanol.  Current government subsidies are really keeping this industry alive.  From my understanding (which is second-hand) is that in order to make one dollar worth of ethanol it takes more than a dollar of resources. In other words, without the subsidies, it isn't profitable.

I'm hoping that as this industry matures they can increase efficiencies and lower overhead costs.  It really is good for the U.S. and especially for the farmers that I know.  I always burn the ethanol blended fuels (a 10% blend) mainly because I know where it comes from.  I can't wait for the next big discovery and see this industry turn into a truly profitable industry! 

Jim

Ron Wenrich

Bill

Pennsylvania is building a trash coal to diesel plant in Schuylkill county.  If that works, then there will probably be lots more.

Jim

I studied up on ethanol back in the '70s, so what I remember may be a little off.  Alchohol vaporizes at about 168 degrees.  That is a pretty easy number to get.

Right now they are using natural gas, because its easy.  But, to make ethanol more worthwhile, you could burn the natural gas to make steam for electricity.  The trash steam could be used to distill the ethanol, making it a good co-gen project.

I worked on one co-gen project where we burnt wood chips to make electricity,  The trash steam is used to cook tomatoes.  Should work with ethanol.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bill

Ron

Thanx - Occasionally we make a run "upstate" and I'd like to take a look at a coal-diesel plant ( wonder if they'd have an outlet store  ;D ) maybe swing by Cabelas while we're out .

crtreedude

At $2.50 a gallon are you sure that idea's "only" worth a million - maybe a few more zeroes are needed.


jrokusek



Forgot to mention that many plants do collect the CO2 that is given off during fermentation.  So I guess they are headed in that direction already.

Don_Papenburg

Crtree,  We harvest our waterways for animal feed.  But trying to harvest road ditches would be very labor intensive . You would have to spend a day or two collecting trash from the cities slobs first. 
Will sugar cane grow in the upper midwest? That is the most economical way to make E-fuel. 
That is a grow squeeze cook and drive enterprise . Plus if you make your own you save on gov. taxation
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

Ron Wenrich

Sugar cane doesn't grow that far north, but sugar beets do.  Or you could go to a bakery and pick up all the sugared stuff they throw out.  Year long supply and no need to have an inventory.

I wouldn't get too anxious about that no taxation thing, either.  You are still responsible for paying both federal and state taxes.  I'm sure that goes for bio-diesel, as well.  Laws vary by state.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Striker

If I am thinking right, most any plant material can be converted into alcohol. People have been studying and finding plants that will produce the most biomass with the least inputs.

Jeff

Riles

The problem hasn't been the biomass, it's the breakdown. Plants store sugar as cellulose, yeast ferments sugar into alcohol. Something has to breakout the cellulose before you can get to the sugar. Termites do it, the bacteria in the guts of ruminants do it, the trick is finding an efficient industrial process.

One word, "plastic" "enzymes"
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

wesdor

Update on my E85 experiment.

This is my third tank of E85 and I think all the other gas should be nearly gone.  MPG is now 18 and cost of E85 fuel has risen to $1.95.  I'm not sure about the rest of you, but around here, regular gas jumped to $2.59 today. 

I made a spreadsheet which used the last 1784 miles of regular gas and ended up with 22.16 MPG average.  This past tank of E85 came out exactly 18.0 MPG. 

If all my inputs are correct, that gives me an average cost of 11.6 cents per mile for regular gas (figured at $2.59 current price), and 10.8 cents per mile for E85 (figured at $1.95 current price). 

I have had people who claim to be knowledgable tell me that gas is projected to be selling at $3.00 / gal by June 1.  Depending upon what E85 does, this may be a good option for those who can use it.


Furby

It should be closer to $3.50 by June 1. :-\ :'(

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