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Give me ideas??????

Started by loudsam, February 16, 2006, 12:26:15 AM

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loudsam

Hi All,  I just made a deal with a local landowner/logger for 5000, (give or take), bd ft of red oak logs.  The logs have been "curing", (drying), for a year.  The minumum diameter is about 11", ( only a couple logs), and then running as large as 28".  How would YOU saw the lumber?  All opinions will be greatly appreciated.  I don't know ANYTHING!  BTW, I'm paying for the logs, not "share-sawing" these logs.  Oh yea, I almost forgot;  How long can these logs sit on the ground?  Thanks in advance,

Doug 8)

Jason_WI

loudsam,

Logs don't need to cure and takes years to dry out in log form.  The less time they sit the better. The ends are probably checked unless end sealed. There may be some loss due to this checking but shouldn't be too bad.

I would grade saw these logs into 4/4, 5/4 6/4 or whatever you might need or have a market for. If there are any signs of defects(knots, cat faces) I will usually turn the log so the defect is at a 45 deg angle to the blade. This way the defect will be at the edge of the board and not in the middle.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

loudsam

A couple, maybe 3 or 4 logs are checked a little, hardly noticeable.  My calling it cured was for want of a better word.  According to the guy doing the logging, the reason the mill didn't want it, was because they are sawing fresh cut logs, and don't want a color difference, etc.  I have good reason to believe that this guy knows/does tell the truth.  The logs are very straight, and he has a LOT of logs/timber. 

beenthere

Before getting committed to buying them all, get an idea how 'cured' the logs are, so you don't end up with logs that are stained or rotted beyond good value in the lumber you are sawing.
It'd be like going after a firewood tree and finding it full of decay. Not much point in going through the effort to do all the work for something that has no end value.
There is more than one reason sawmills want fresh cut logs. Sawing these logs before the spring/summer sets in would be a good idea to limit any further advance of decay, I think.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

loudsam

Beenthere,  He said the logs were cut last winter.  This guy cuts alot of timber, and his Dad was and still IS a logger, at over 80 yrs old.  He says that it was because of color that the sawmill's scaler didn't want it.  The logs look really great.  Is there something I should be looking for that would indicate rot, or whatever?  Also, how long could I pile these logs at my place before they were sawed without losing considerable value?

Thanks

Jeff

Hard to believe color is the reason. I have sawn millions of board feet of red oak lumber in michigan at the commercial level and "color" has never been an issue in the marketing of grade red oak. Now if it is mineral stained, thats a different story.  Letting logs "cure" or "dry" for the sake of curing or drying is a big mistake and anyone that truy knows saw logs and sawing would not do it intentionally. Logs should be sawn as soon as possible the drier they are the harder they saw. The harder they saw, the greater the chance of culls due to sawing defect as well as drying. You also lose the sap wood. Sound sap wood is not a defect in red oak
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

ARKANSAWYER


  When oak sits like that the ends get very hard for an inch or so in then the rest of the log is about like it was when it hit the ground.  On a circle mill you can not hit the end of the log so you have to "sneak" up on it then slow back down on the back end.  On a band saw it will "chatter" when you first start the cut or dip/jump coming or going.  Hated to see them come down the log deck on the big rig.   That is the real reason along with soft/stained sap wood.
   I bought some a few years ago that had been down for a spell because the logger got hurt and the logs sit in the woods till he got better.  Big mills would not take them and since they were bucked 9'4" for 7x9 ties I just cut them down to 8'6" and made grade wood and 6x8 ties. (local thing with the ties)
  If the price is right saw them up.
ARKANSAWYER

loudsam

I'm starting to get the picture about the reason the big mill did not want the logs.  His "fresh" logs were going for about 230 dollars a cord.  about 23 to 2400 dollars a truck load.  He told me I could have the "cured" logs, (which I'm sure he didn't dry intentionally), for 200 a cord.  I thought that because they had layed for a year it would be no big deal.  In Michigan I imagine the going rate for red oak is the same as here.  Does 200 dollars a cord sound reasonable, a real good deal, or not such a good deal?  Help is needed from you guys, and really, really, appreciated!!!

Doug

treedog

If the price is right i"d do the deal.  All Ive been sawing for 1 1/2 years is aged logs; some even from Isebel (Sept 2003).  The lumber is still good some spalting, but worth the effort.  Keep alota sharp blades though and don't rush your cuts; woods harder than it was when cut.  If log are long enough cut the checking off the ends and seal pronto, you'll be pleased with the result.  treedog

loudsam

Does the 200. dollars a cord, (4x4x8 in this neck of the woods), seem like a good deal?

scsmith42

Loudsam, 4' x 4' x 8' works out to be 1536 board feet (gross) by my calculations. 

Presuming that you get 40% waste (from cutting off the dried ends, losing sapwood, and the space between the logs in the 4 x 4 x 8  "cord" stack), you net out with about 921 board feet.  This means that you're paying about 22 cents per cut board foot. 

Seems like an ok deal to me, but I defer to the experts.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

jpgreen

I... sniff, sniff... smell a deal in the making here.   Sounds like maybe he needs you more, and I think you can get those logs cheaper...  :-*

Find out what his motivation is.  Why did he contact you, and is he stuck with them?  What can he get else where for them?  Does he have the time, or want to deal with moving them?  Does he need to make room in his yard?

He knows you're green. I'd start low and feel him out, Respectfully, in a nice way.

Always fire back with a low offer, and then remain silent.  Let him come up with the next number.  You can always move up, but if you start with a high number, ya got no breathing room..  :)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

beenthere

I'd like to see you get some experience sawing 'some' of these logs first, to see what the problems are, what the lumber looks like, and for you to get a feel for what you are up against.
If you can buy just a few cords and 'try' them without a committment for all that he has, seems much better way to go. But you pick the logs you want to saw, so he doesn't high grade a bunch out. Get some of those logs on the bottom of the pile as well as some that look good. Make it a good test for yourself. You will have a much better idea what $200 a cord means as well, when you stack up the wood. This could be the deal of a lifetime.  We're anxious to see you get to sawing too, but not anxious to hear that it was a bummer experience.
You thinking you have time to saw some before hitting the 'big' lakes the first of March?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

rebocardo

> for 200 a cord

My limited experience in GA has been if it is anything other then pine, if it lays around for more then a month it develops cracks that go in at least six inches in from the end.  When cutting and sizing I would assume losing 1 ft on a 9 foot board after it is properly dried.

I guess your position is that you do not have wood to mill and you have to make a cheap deal. Once you cut this wood are you reselling it or using it for your own projects? My own use I woudl take a bigger risk.

If it turns out to be all firewood, then you are paying a pretty good price per cord. Then again, he is delivering the wood and that is worth something.

I would try buying one truck load of a max cap of $500 and see how it turns out. If it is junk, then it is low enough $ to turn it into firewood and sort of break even without having to complain about the lousy deal and just move on. If it turns to a good deal, buy more  8)

loudsam

Man, you guys are such a help!  What an advantage having people in the know to be able to ask advice from!

As far as motivation.  I mentioned it  to my Moms friend who is HIS mother.  He then contacted me.  Yes, he knows I'm green.

He has absolutely NO problem dealing with logs.  His family has been in this area for years.  He has probably hundreds of acres of timber, (I was at a 160 acre parcel with him yesterday), and more including his Dad's and Mom's.  He has all kinds of equipment to skid logs and lift and move logs, all profesional stuff.  In fact, I'm sure he's got the equipment to make firewood, which is going for about 55 dollars a face cord/delivered up here right now.  I think, when he said two hundred dollars, that was the lowest he would go. I think he just sized me up, decided what he'd take, and could care less if I took it or not.  I've never been afraid to drive a bargain, but, I think I would be insulting him if I asked for more.  The stuff, to my untrained eye, looks REAL good.  Remember I've been in the Northen Michigan, UP, and NW wisconsin all my life.  

You guys have been a terrific help.  Like Beenthere said , I may be able to saw just a few cords first to see how it goes.  In fact, he's told me I'm welcome to saw the stuff right there.  The place is like a logging camp.  But, he's not clear cutting cause he intends on building there too.  Timberframe with straw filler, no less. 8)

BTW, I think he could care less whether I took a half a cord, or the whole pile I don't even think he would care if I cut a few logs and then told him I didn't want it..  I probably wouldn't get anymore offers from him though, or maybe anyone else around here.

leweee

Quote from: Jeff B on February 16, 2006, 04:35:24 AM
. Now if it is mineral stained, thats a different story. 

Personally, I'd want to saw a few to see what he means by" colour" :o
If it is" mineral stained"it is worth a whole lot less as "saleable lumber"(if any one wants it at all) CAVEAT EMPTOR(buyer beware)
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

loudsam

What is mineral stained?  What causes it?  Would I only know by sawing into the log?  If that were the case, (only know if you saw the log), how would the mills scaler have known that?

This guy knows lumber, he worked at his Dad's sawmill.  I seriously think that he would NOT intentionally gyp me.  IF I even acted like I thought he might, I think he would probably never do business with me again.  He came on like a friend.  His Mom and my Mom are VERY close friends.  I've never met him, but I'm gone 8 months a year.  Also, only about 2 or 3 logs even show checking at the ends.

jpgreen

Doug-

Just some observations from someone looking in...

You are assuming an awful lot here, and you really need to start in cautiously no matter how good a guy he seems. Always CYA.

Just knowing each others family members is not the motivation I was referring to, and I would not leave my butt hangin' in the wind based on that for sure. You need to ask questions and find out what he needs.

It is never an insult to ask for less, in a kind respectful manner. In fact you earn more respect by doing it.

"Mr...." I really appreciate you taking your valuable time, and working with me here, but I'm new to the business, and don't want to get in over my head.  Whatdaya say to $150 a cord to start in with a load to see where we're at?

This way- he gets what sounds like a cord of this wood goes for in you area.  You can sell it or use it for firewood if it's not lumber material.

If it turns out to be a gold mine, then make an adjustment, if he wants more than $150, but $200 is the max.

This way you don't loose and he doesn't loose.  Win, win.

If he doesn't accept something very close to this offer, I would be VERY leery.  CYA at all times!!

This is in no way an insult, just good business on both sides.
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

jpgreen

Another note that just came to mind....

I was burnt real good one time by a friend of the family. He was the nicest old man you would want to meet. 

Took my green hide real good, and gave me the best lesson I've ever paid for...  ;D


As far as wood markets go, I don't know squat, but I do know something about a negotiation. 

Was taught by the best..  :D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

loudsam

Quote from: jpgreen on February 16, 2006, 12:08:20 PM
Another note that just came to mind....

I was burnt real good one time by a friend of the family. He was the nicest old man you would want to meet. 

Was taught by the best..  :D

I'd still be "paying him back"! ;)  When someone intentionally does that to me, I put him on a list, I never forget. ???  if he sawed it and split it, he make 300+ a cord just for firewood.

loudsam

Quote from: beenthere on February 16, 2006, 10:32:07 AM
I'd like to see you get some experience sawing 'some' of these logs first, to see what the problems are, what the lumber looks like, and for you to get a feel for what you are up against.
If you can buy just a few cords and 'try' them without a committment for all that he has, seems much better way to go. But you pick the logs you want to saw, so he doesn't high grade a bunch out. Get some of those logs on the bottom of the pile as well as some that look good. Make it a good test for yourself. You will have a much better idea what $200 a cord means as well, when you stack up the wood. This could be the deal of a lifetime.  We're anxious to see you get to sawing too, but not anxious to hear that it was a bummer experience.
You thinking you have time to saw some before hitting the 'big' lakes the first of March?

I could probably saw alot of it, but, I might have to leave the rest sit for a couple of months.  We're probably going to fit-out the ship around the middle of next month.  I did ask for an extra month off.  Don't mean I'll get it though!

loggerson

hay doug gave me call went you ready to saw so i can help
that what im here for.
yor brother in law ed
smiley_swinging_board

Jeff

With the log size you gave, and if there is not a lot of degradation, that amounts to about $400 per thousand feet. Add your sawing costs and include trucking costs if you have to move the logs or the lumber. Remember everytime you move the lumber it costs you. Time is money. At our mill the goal was to handle wood once manually. It was stacked off the green chain and anything after that was movement by machine. If something was to be stickered (rarely for us) you sticker it off the chain. Paying someone (or worse, having to do it yourself) to stack wood twice makes little sense if it can be avoided.

Every thing you do in relationship to those logs has a related cost, try to add those all up and see if it makes sense for you. In better terms, that it all adds up. :)

On a personal note, I would not be scared of red oak that has only been down a year due to drying defect concerns. Probably some sap wood damage, but the wood will be fine assuming it was fine to begin with. If the logs are in a pile, thats a good thing. If they are layed out single high, and on a hard service like concrete or bare soil, that can be a problem that can add to checking, but as a rule with red oak, versus something like ash or hickory, not so much a problem.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Minnesota_boy

I've sawed a bit of that kind of stuff, and I wouldn't worry too much about it.  I might not want a semi load of it until I knew for sure what I was getting, but I sure wouldn't worry overmuch about being taken either.  A lot would depend on what your intentions were for the wood too.  If it is for your own use, think of how much you can use and where you will stack it until you're ready to use it.  It's real easy to talk about 4 or 5 thousand feet of lumber, but something else to saw and stack it where it will be accessable and out of the way at the same time.

If you plan to saw and sell the wood, think hard about what the wood is like and how you will market and haul it.  Putting a thousand board feet of oak on your half ton pickup might seem pretty feasable, until you notice the springs are flat and the tires are too.  There's a lot of weight in a thousand feet of oak.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Jeff

Here is a very good link talking about sap and mineral stain in hardwood logs from Perdue University.

http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-90-W.pdf
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

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