blue stain

snowman · January 26, 2006, 11:13:08 AM

Ive seen some pine floors with blue stain that were beautiful. I assumed you had to find dead or dying pine to get this wood. I keep reading in here mention of blue stain being a problem. This may sound odd but i want my pine to do this. Do i stack it unstickered or what?

Tom · January 26, 2006, 03:33:52 PM

Our blue-stain (southeast) is a fungus that is inoculated in the wood by bark beetles. The sawmill blade will further inoculate a piece of wood. Bluing is quick and measured, in the right humidity, in days and sometimes hours.

Sawing already dead wood would certainly increase the chances of inoculation.

Having the insects around the saw-yard would help to produce it too. Just let the logs sit in log form, with the bark on long enough to develop the stain, before you saw them.

Cold temperatures would minimize blue stain because of less insect activity and the slowing down of the growth of the fungus.

You can usually see the extent of the blue stain by looking at the end of a log or the fresh-cut when you buck.

stumpy · January 26, 2006, 05:14:54 PM

Well Tom, you just taught me somethin new. I thought blue stain was caused by sap in the wood and you eliminate it by logging in the winter(actualy, I was told to only log pine in months that have an "R" in them) and sawing quickly so the stain can't develop.

Den Socling · January 26, 2006, 05:34:27 PM

The 'R' months are the cold months. Cold inhibits the fungus. There's many causes of stains in different species but keeping the log cold stops all of the processes that make stain.

Texas Ranger · January 26, 2006, 06:02:03 PM

T om, said it, and that's what I teach. Keep the logs till you get saw dust on the bark (if fresh logs) or cut recent dead trees. Watch the ends for the stain. It degrades the wood, but not the strength, if not to advanced and no punky wood is found.

SwampDonkey · January 26, 2006, 06:06:23 PM

If you don't mind sawyer beetle borer holes, then go for it.

Tom · January 26, 2006, 06:12:00 PM

We can get blue stain through and through long before sawyers mature enough to start tunneling into the log. Most get slabbed off and are actually still eating on the cambium and haven't even gone into the tree. 'Course it doesn't take them long to make their tunnel when they get ready.

SwampDonkey · January 26, 2006, 06:40:30 PM

I had some pine I cut in October 2001. It laid till may in the grass. Took it to a mill as no portable mill was interested. Got it back, it looked great. Stacked and stickered it in the barn and went to get a couple pieces for a project several weeks later and alot was green and some boards had a few sawyer beetle holes with piles a fresh sawdust beside the holes. Them beetles got in the pine before I had it sawed and never left until they was good and ready. :D :D

Tom · January 26, 2006, 06:49:16 PM

Sounds like you're talking about powderpost beetles or the like. Sawyers here are as big as your little finger and make 3/8" holes full of frass.

Bark beetles and powderpost beetles make holes about the size of a pencil lead and leave a mound of sawdust around it. If it's the powderpost beetle, I'd bet they got into it from the shed rather than having been in it before it was sawed. You might need a good dose of insecticide sprayed in and around your shed.

SwampDonkey · January 26, 2006, 06:57:45 PM

Quote from: Tom on January 26, 2006, 06:49:16 PM
Sawyers here are as big as your little finger and make 3/8" holes full of frass.

That's what they were, but we also have golden Buprestid also. It may have been them, but I'm sure it's sawyer. Pictures coming tommorrow whan I see daylight again. ;)

Dakota · January 26, 2006, 07:42:04 PM

Tom's got it covered. Here's a picture of the end of some logs that are stained through out.

Dakota

wiam · January 26, 2006, 07:53:22 PM

Tom can't be powderpost beetles. The doctor says that they only eat hardwood. I think that thread dissapeared when I said they were in the cedar floor joists in my barn. :D

Will

Tom · January 26, 2006, 08:21:47 PM

Dakota, I like that trailer.

wiam,
funny, I got'em in pine down here too. Must be sumthin' different than he's talkin' about. :D
What it is, is, (double word sentence) those little hump backed black scoundrels that build egg galleries in dry wood so that their larvae can tunnel around and destroy it. :D

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Entomology/entfacts/struct/ef616.htm
http://www.ext.vt.edu/departments/entomology/factsheets/powderpo.html
http://www.uri.edu/ce/factsheets/sheets/powdpostbeetl.html

SwampDonkey · January 26, 2006, 08:28:29 PM

It's the Doc that needs to be dedi...educated. :P

I too like the trailor Dokota, but my eyes can't even see the end grain of them logs let alone a stain. :D

Thanks for the links Tom ;)

SwampDonkey · January 27, 2006, 09:54:32 AM

Ok, I went down to the 'stash' in the light of day and took my scale ruler and camera slung around my kneck. I fished through the pine board pile and I found this piece with some exit holes and took a snapshop. The exit hole is at an angle and the width of the hole should be measured perpendicular to the scale edge. As I stated above I believe the borers were in there as the logs were sawn. Got the boards from the mill at the end of the day and stacked and stickered them that evening after work. The borers just continued chewing untill they exited and left. It's not my belief that the borers came in the barn afterward to attack the wood. The only frass I seen was from squirrel and mouse droppings. :

;D

Tom · January 27, 2006, 09:58:44 AM

That does look like a sawyer hole.

SwampDonkey · January 27, 2006, 10:39:19 AM

Ambrosia are the ones that make galleries to grow fungus for food, right? It's my understanding that blue stain fungi can infect the galleries as a consequence of being carried by the bark beetle, but they don't feed on it (fungus) as Ambrosia do. Bark beetles feed on softwood (pine) phloem wood tissue where the sugars are. Powder post feed on green, dry, or finished wood, regardless of species.

Maybe I didn't state anything new, sure is a confusing subject though. ;) :D

Tom · January 27, 2006, 10:54:18 AM

Yeah, that sounds like my understanding too. Though, blue stain doesn't require deep injection to inoculate. I think that the little cone shaped egg chamber of the bak beetle is enough to get it started. I've seen Blue stain in logs where I couldn't find a hole.

SwampDonkey · January 27, 2006, 12:55:50 PM

Ditto to the blue stain Tom. I have it in my pine stash, it was nice and yellow for several months, then in the next warm season I had some pine get the stain on the surface.

Greenie · February 22, 2006, 05:26:05 PM

Last April (2005) we processed about 41K feet, taking care to do it right. Pine boards planed through early fall were good, and then blue stain came on strong.
This year we're adding about a cup of Chlorox to the Woodmizer blade soaker (or whatever it's called) plus I'm spraying the pine boards (one side only, due to time constraints) with one cup Chlorox per 2 gallons of water as we stack and sticker.
I'll let you guys know how it works.

beenthere · November 21, 2008, 02:09:28 PM

Quote from: Greenie on February 22, 2006, 05:26:05 PM
Last April (2005) we processed about 41K feet, taking care to do it right. Pine boards planed through early fall were good, and then blue stain came on strong.
This year we're adding about a cup of Chlorox to the Woodmizer blade soaker (or whatever it's called) plus I'm spraying the pine boards (one side only, due to time constraints) with one cup Chlorox per 2 gallons of water as we stack and sticker.
I'll let you guys know how it works.

And Greenie, how does it work?

zopi · November 21, 2008, 06:39:11 PM

Quote from: Greenie on February 22, 2006, 05:26:05 PM
Last April (2005) we processed about 41K feet, taking care to do it right. Pine boards planed through early fall were good, and then blue stain came on strong.
This year we're adding about a cup of Chlorox to the Woodmizer blade soaker (or whatever it's called) plus I'm spraying the pine boards (one side only, due to time constraints) with one cup Chlorox per 2 gallons of water as we stack and sticker.
I'll let you guys know how it works.

i bleached the hell out of a pile of lumber last summer...came out just like the ones I did not bleach...specially after planing..

SwampDonkey · November 21, 2008, 07:23:33 PM

Mine were stained all the way through the sapwood. I found out why when I seen ambrosia holes all through it. It was just in the sap wood, I assume, and you could see it end abrupt at a growth ring when you cut the end off the boards. You could spray bleach until the cows come home, it won't take that out. Aside from ruining the board, it was actually quite neat to end so abruptly. I gotta get a picture sometime.

SwampDonkey · November 21, 2008, 07:45:56 PM

Ambrosia galleries and all. Sure is interesting the way the stain progresses. The rings are pretty tight because those are some tiny beetles.

Greenie · December 25, 2008, 08:36:01 AM

Quote from: beenthere on November 21, 2008, 02:09:28 PM
Quote from: Greenie on February 22, 2006, 05:26:05 PM
Last April (2005) we processed about 41K feet, taking care to do it right. Pine boards planed through early fall were good, and then blue stain came on strong.
This year we're adding about a cup of Chlorox to the Woodmizer blade soaker (or whatever it's called) plus I'm spraying the pine boards (one side only, due to time constraints) with one cup Chlorox per 2 gallons of water as we stack and sticker.
I'll let you guys know how it works.

And Greenie, how does it work?

We went back to spraying a strong mixture of bleach to the top side of boards as we stickered them outside in the spring (February-April). When it was below freezing we added denatured alcohol to the mix to prevent freezing in the hand sprayer. Early fall we planed and edged the boards, putting them in racks unstickered in a cold storage building. On some boards blue stain was present on one side but not on the side we sprayed. A few boards had blue stain on both sides, but I think those boards came from dead and stained saw logs.
The pine boards have been stored under cover for 1 1/2 years now and they are stable with zero new stain. It will take a lot more time but this winter's boards will be sprayed on both sides as they are stickered. We'll cover the tops of the stacks with tarps and will pull the sides up to allow for cross air flow.
I'm certain that the bleach does help, even long after the water evaporates enough bleach is left on the surface to limit growth.
One thing, we mix it strong enough to turn the sapwood yellow. When it is done the pine turns out white. Maybe folks aren't making it strong enough if it's not working for them.