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Clearcutting

Started by Skully, October 14, 2002, 08:39:23 PM

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Skully

Why would this be banned in National Forests?
This is a legitimate silvicultural system and some species of trees require this system to regenerate..!

Outlawing Clear-cutting is not responsible Forest Management


Dan :P

Tom



That's how I see it too, Dan

Jeff

Outlawing Clear-cutting would have nothing to do with "responsible" decisions.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

"They" have been trying to ban clearcutting (even-aged management) and in fact "all logging" on National Forest system lands for some time.

Right now under the National Forest Management Act of 1976 clearcuts on National Forest system lands can't be more than 40 acres in size and it must be the "optimum" silvicultural method with the objective being primarily for wildlife. Anything larger has to have special approvals of the Regional Forester etc.

Kirtlands Warbler clear cuts are up to 500 acres in size, but in conformance to the Huron-Manistee's Forests' Plan for management for this endangered species.
~Ron

D._Frederick

Out here in Oregon, there had been a number of law suits because of clearcutting of mountain sides sliding down during winter storms , killing people, burying homes, destoying hiways.  The state has passed laws about the liability of clearcutting steep mountains.

DanG

Obviously, clear-cutting is not always the responsible thing to do, but it is not always irresponsible, either. Hmmmmm...do you suppose that's why Foresters ACTUALLY have to know their stuff?
Hats off to all you Foresters who preserve our resource, so the rest of us will have something to work with. 8) 8) 8)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Jeff

Yea, what that DanG DanG guy said.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

woodman

Jim Cripanuk

Paul_H


I haven't heard anything like that happening in B.C. There have been road failures in steep terrain,but not linked to clearcutting alone.(that I can recall).Here,each stream has to be assessed,and catagorized by a qualified engineer.If there are risks of failure due to unstable terrain,the stream is buffered,and no logging will take place in that zone.If the stream is stable ,logging may take place,but the steam must be cleaned of any debris introduced from the falling and yarding.
These regulations have been in place and enforced since 1991.
Our company logs 36000 m3 annually(around a 1000 truck loads).  85-90% is  by small clearcuts(less than 20 acre blocks).The rest is taken with alternate silviculture systems,such as a uniform shelterwood,(leaving 45-60 stems per hectare,to protect young seedlings on dry, South facing slopes.Most of the opposition to clear cutting I have seen or heard of,boils down to aesthetics.To me it is a short term problem.Part of our licences obligations,are to replant our blocks,and have the trees growing two thirds above the competing vegatation in 8-12 years.If we don't meet our obligations,we will lose part of, or all of our licence to cut.

That being said,I realize there has been some mismanagement in the past,and  fish streams have been damaged,roads have failed,and so on.But I believe that a properly engineered clear cut block is still an acceptable presciption in our terrain.(45+ % side slopes)

DFrederick,
If you wouldn't mind,could you show me where to find more information on the Oregon slides,&lawsuits.I want to pass it along to our crew.

Thanks

    Paul
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Ron Wenrich

There are other objections to clearcutting besides aesthetics, although I would believe that is the number one problem.

Erosion has been cited.  Planting into a monocuture, which leads to a lack of bio-diversity.  The ladder effect of fires resulting from trees of several different ages in close proximity.  Nutrient loss, especially from whole tree chipping.

Arguements in favor of clearcutting are:  it saves money for harvesters, increase of streamflow, increased edge habitat, and less shade tolerant species.  The shade tolerant species often are not as economically favorable.  Think beech vs black cherry.

Clearcutting has it's place.  But, sometimes it can be over prescribed
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Paul_H

Monoculture has been a misused term.Before our preharvest silviculture prescription plan is submitted,a cruise is taken.In most of our chart areas there are 1-3 dominant species.The one we are logging right now is as follows 1.Douglas Fir  2.Western Red Cedar  3.Balsam Fir(Abies amabilis).
The block currently being engineered is 1.Douglas Fir  2.WR Cedar.
Both blocks will be replanted according to the species stocking before harvesting.Along with those species will grow Birch, Alder,Cottonwood,and Western Hemlock through natural regeneration,not to mention numerous berries,and shrubs.
None of the last mentioned are recognized as an acceptable species in restocking ,by the Forest service.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Ron Wenrich

Monoculture can also be a timber type.  One of the reasons for vast defoliation by the gypsy moth in Pennsylvania was because we had an oak timber type from border to border.  That came about due to clearcutting, then moving on.

A climax forest is also a monoculture.  Only shade tolerant species are present.  So, monocultures can be naturally occurring.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Paul_H

WRC,Balsam Fir,and Western Hemlock are shade tolerant,but Hemlock is prone to mistletoe so it's not an acceptable plantation tree.Balsam Fir will stay in a semi dormant growth state till the canopy is removed or opened up.Some of the stunted Balsam will be around 4' high,and 1-2" dia,but are over 200 years old.Once released,it will do fine.(I have heard they make a decent Bonsai tree)

One prescription I found interesting was replanting a Cedar flat with both Cedar,and Cottonwood.When the Cottonwood is a merchantable size,remove it,and plant more Cedar&Cottonwood.Continuing on with the planting and harvesting, until the Cedar reaches maturity.
Birch and Alder would probably work well too.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Skully

Ron I was wondering what your definition of a "climax" forest is.  It is my understanding that forests are in a constant state of change whether it be naturally or human intervention.  That is why I believe that the term "climax" forest is a term of the past?

my .02 cents

Dan :P

Ron Wenrich

There are various types of species in every type of region.  They start with pioneer species and go to climax species.  It all depends on their order in the forest succession from bare land to climax forest.  The climax forest is the final chain in the succession.

Most of this has to do with the species tolerance to shade.  The more tolerant species are most likely to be climax species.  Sugar maple, beech, white oak and hemlock are commonly associated with hardwood climax forests of the NE. They also tend to be slower growing.

That doesn't mean that forests never change.  There are naturally occuring disturbances that will disrupt or start the succession.  Hurricanes, severe ice storms, fire, insects and disease are a few that are associated with that.  

Sometimes the mortality is widespread, sometimes fairly isolated.  It depends on how big or small you want to make your forest.  Foresters tend to look at a forest in smaller blocks than other people.  It often comes down to a very small community.  German forestry even manages for different strata of the forest - high, middle, and low.  We haven't achieved that vision yet.

If you keep on using thinnings as a means of forest management, you will eventually get to the climax forest.  At some point, you may want to get back to the pioneer stage, so you clearcut.  But, many plantings begin with something in the intermediate tolerant species.  Seems that is where the more desirable wood is at.

Uneven-aged management can be achieved through 2 different techniques.  One being constant thinnings where there are several ages.  The other is to knock holes in the forest that are at least 1/4-1/2 acre.  These would be clearcuts.  Usually, natural regeneration is allowed to seed these in, at least here in the east.  It gives several different ages, but limits the forest from reaching a climax stage.

Climax isn't a term of the past.  In many situations, the forest isn't allowed to reach that stage since it isn't being managed for that.  To do that we would have to extend our rotation from 75 years to 400 years.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Ron, do I recall correctly that Peter Rennie from over at about.com talking about that up where he is at (British Columbia?) that they do manage on 400 year rotations?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

That's my understanding.  I'm not sure that all areas in BC do that.  His work is mainly on Crown lands.  That's a level of management that is above most in our country.

Maybe Paul_H could give us more info.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Paul_H

Most of the Presciptions are managing for sawlogs at 80-120 year rotations.I was just looking at a prescription for a block we logged 2 years ago.It was a small Cedar&Fir block that we hoe chucked.Mature Cottonwoods were left standing for cover,and long term course woody debris.

It called for sawlogs within 85 years.I would think that 400 years wouldn't be unreasonable,but I'm sure there would be some thinning some where along the way.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Ron Wenrich

I think they were managing for old growth forests.  It may have been in selected areas.  But, there would be thinnings all along the way.  There just wasn't any clearcutting until they got to the final stage.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Paul_H

On the blocks we've done in uniform shelterwood(45-55 stems per hectare), the blocks as a whole, won't be logged for at least 80 years.Maybe a light comercial thin at some point.The trees left for shelter were an average size for the blocks,and all over 140 years.All healthy,minor wind throw in the blocks

It's too bad I won't be around to see them,when it's time to harvest.I'll bet there will be some pretty nice Fir.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Frank_Pender

As  to clearcutting by some of the big boys around here, I heard the other night at a Watershed Council meeting that Williamette Industries had a cycle of 45 years on their land, whereas "Weyhouser" (sp) has a 37 year cycle.  Many of these firms are beginning to use what is called around here as "super trees" (fast grown).   What will happen to structural integerity is anyones guess. :'(  They are also limited on the tract size to max out at 120 acres at a time to clearcut.  the site nextdoor cannot be harvested until the clearcut is well started after replanting.
Frank Pender

Tom

"Super" trees for lumber will create a whole new bag of worms for  the grading folks, don't you know?

Frank_Pender

Tom, the thing with the bag of worms is that the lumber inudstry itself regulates or should I say strongly influences the grading industry on lumber as well as the logs.  I have always felf that the fox is helping run the henhouse.  both regulatory agencies have very strong representation on the board of directors of each.   :'(  Am I filled with envy, notnot really but it sure would be nice to have some representation from the Small Woodlands people on the log end of things as well as the very small sawmill operatiors represented on the grading board of directors.  We may always be out-voted or gaveled out of order, but we would have a voice.  Perhaps, one day. ::)
Frank Pender

Tillaway

California allows 20 acre clearcuts on up to 30 acres on low erosion hazard rated soils.  Cable systems can go to 40 acres on low EHR ground.

There are allot of loosely defined shelterwoods out here.  Normally you cut the sheltering trees about four or five years, if you plant, after the initial shelter wood harvest or when you have established stocking.

The FS was kicking around the idea of gowing to a 500 year rotation for Douglas Fir on the Siuslaw National Forest.  They had planned to grow Western Hemlock as crop trees in the understory. .
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Paul_H

Tillaway,
What kind of problems are to be expected,in falling the shelter trees after the saplings grow.We haven't had to go back and take them,and I don't think our convex slopes would allow it.Even as little as 45 stems per hectare,would make a mess of the saplings,never mind yarding them,though it would be nice to get them out.

A few of the shelterwood blocks are mainly to shade the seedlings on the dry SW slopes, but most are politically motivated in our district to meet visual quality objectives, VQO's. At least 10% of our cut must be done with an alternate silviculture system.
Did you have similar experiences in the Charlottes?

Frank,
Thats interesting,at a cycle of 45 years,it's no wonder Fir pulp prices are at such a low.($25 CDN per m3) in the water.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

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