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WM vs. WM???

Started by FiremanEd, January 02, 2006, 11:03:37 PM

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FiremanEd

Dad is looking at getting a new mill. His TimberHarvester is 8 or so years old and owes no one anything. It's cut a lot of wood and showing it. Of course I'm partial to the LT300 but that's more than he needs.  What are the thoughts on here between a LT40Super and LT70? Either can be ordered long enough, with the same 25hp electric motor, same computer etc. I never studied them as hard as the 300 so I can't quote the exact differences to him. Either one will be brought home, set up and bolted to the concrete floor in my sawhouse so mobility and ease of set up aren't a big deal.

Question is, is the LT70 worth the extra $$$$$ and why?

Thanks.

Eddie
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

Bibbyman

Excellent question..  I think it comes down to how you're going to apply the mill. 

The LT40 does not lend itself to well to adding on the conveyors and other support attachments as the LT70.  The two big problems with the LT40 in this area is that DanG hydraulic box that's right in the way and the dragback system that's not nearly as good as the LT70s.

The Command Station on the LT40 is fixed to the (what would be) the hitch end.  The Command Station on the LT70 is on a cord and can be moved to the tail end, side, etc. - thus can be setup to saw "backwards" like the LT300

Also,  if you're talking about the E25 models of both,  I think the new LT70s are all AC.  The LT40 is basically a mobile mill with an electric motor.  All the rest is AC.

Then again,  The LT70 is more like a mobile version of the LT300.  So the new LT70E25 is more like the LT300 than an LT40 Super.

We have the LT40HDE25RA and its more mill than "Mom and Pop" needs without more help or more automation.  But if you've got the support systems and a need for the production, then the LT70 will shine. 

The LT70 has a lot of beefed up features that also adds to it holding up better in an industrial application.  It also has the larger band wheels and longer blades (same as LT300 I'm thinking).  The new single mast head design has a lot of advantages over the older LT40 two post design. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ellmoe



Ed,

   I think Bibbyman meant to type that the rest of the 40 is DC not AC. As you may remember we have two 40 super hydralics and have spoken with you and others about the 300 and the 70. What I got out of the conversations is that the 40 and the 70 will perform fairly close (especially considering the cost difference) unless you are putting in conveyors, etc.. If you do this then the productivity difference in the 70 may be realized. This comparison is between two electric mills. We are still in the "considering mode" and may sell one of our 40's . If you have interest in a used 40, drop me a note.
   Hope all is going well.

Mark
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

Bibbyman

 Yea, I ment DC.  It was in the middle of the night..   ;D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

VA-Sawyer

I believe that the 70 and the 300 share a lot of parts in common.  Do you keep much inventory of spare parts?  I would think that just using the same blade would be of quite a value.



ronwood

One of the question that I have does the increase in the flex life offset the cost of the blades between the LT70 and LT40?   Larger bandsaw wheels result in longer blades resulting in an increase in blade cost. Not sure that is is a big factor.

If the initial purchase price would not be of concern I would perfer the LT70. Changing blades sure would be easier than on the LT40.

Common parts sure would be nice.

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

D._Frederick

I have seen the LT70 and the LT40 super sawing side by side at the Logging shows. The log handling design of the 70 is much improved over the 40. There are also a number of changes on the saw head that WM made to improve blade life and sawing accuracy.

For the extra dollars in cost difference, you would get a lot more sawmill and it should be worth more if and when you sell it. The design of the LT40 is "dated", where as the 70 design is the industrail leader.

Bibbyman

I knew I had some pictures someplace of the LT70 hooked up to their conveyor and board separator system..





Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

footer

To me, the chain log turner, and the remote operators station alone would make me buy the LT 70 over the 40. I hope to buy one of the two someday, as I have an LT40 manual. At this point, I plan on waiting until I can get the LT70!  If you are going to be stationary, you are probably going to add conveyors at some point and you would probably want the remote operators station also.

Kedwards

I can honestly say my Woodmizer LT40 is awesome. I really enjoy sawing after years of sawing with a frick and a Lucas Mill. the woodmizer will produce more wood than I can comfortably handle if I let it. The lucas is now a dedicated slabber for the "bigguns" for high grade slabs.
His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like socks in a dryer without cling free

gmmills

Ed,

   My old mill was a LT40 Super. Put over 4000 hrs on it. Replaced it last April with LT70D62. Just turned 700hrs on it today. There are quite a few differences between the two.  The LT40 has smaller band wheels 19 in. compared to 24in. on the 70. If you are planning to run 0.055 blades the larger wheels will yield noticably longer blade flex life. The blade tensioner is also different. THe 40 has an hydrauic tensioner and the 70 has an air bag system. As Bibbyman stated the head masts are different. Log turner on 40 is a claw. The 70 is a chain same as your 300. Side supports are also different. The blade guide arm assembly is also different. The 70 is so much easier to adjust than the 40's. 8) 8) 8) 8)

   Bibbyman was right about the LT70 electric being an all AC machine. The only one real operational difference between LT70 electric and the LT70 diesel that I am aware of. The electric does not have an autoclutch to disengage the blade. If the motor is running than so is the blade. In order to stop the blade you have to shut the motor off. 

    There are many shared components of the LT300 and the LT70. Same length of blades. Chain log turner and side supports. Blade guide arm assembly. Single mast head column. Blade guide pads.  I think they share some parts of the blade tensioner.  Your 300 has a 30 hp electric motor. The LT70 electric has a 25 hp motor. I have never asked why the difference. 

     As to the question of the 70 being worth the extra bucks.  For my situation, YES.
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

FiremanEd

Thanks for all the replys. Some good info. We found a new LT70 that was ordered and then the buyer cancelled on that's available in 2 weeks. He's looking at that one. Also found a couple slightly used 300's that are very reasonable, ie: not much more than the new 70. We're still talking and looking.

thanks for all the insight.

Eddie
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

smwwoody

Eddie

He needs it to be a opposite hand 300 of the one I am running.  I measured the building today and we can turn the edger around then run a green chain out the door where his logs come in now.  the new Hog can go in the middle of the doorway at the back of the building in line with the edger with one large conveyor feeding it that starts behind the edger and runs down the middle of the building.  put the sawdust blower in the rafters between the two mills with hanging flex hose.  then build a small roof over the green chain and we are all set.  now all we need is a bunch more logs.....

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

VA-Sawyer

Eddie,
With two 300's running you will just run out of logs twice as fast.  ;D   I can just see it now..... not 3 hours since the log truck left and your dad and Woody are fighting over the last log.  :D  :D
If the demand for tie logs gets any worse in your area, it will cause a price hike clear over here!
Maybe I should give up sawing and start hauling logs to you.
Hope it goes well, whichever mill you choose.
VA-Sawyer

hawby

I have owned a LT40HDG24 for 4.5 years... Now I own a LT40HD42 Super and a LT70 HDE25. All of the things the previous posts have said are true. I am extremely happy with my LT70. The log turner is superior to the claw. I get into less trouble with it, then I do on the LT40. The tensioner is also MUCH better.

I was gonna setup in the reverse position with the command control, but I just freaked out at everything being backwards. So... I am still using it in a two man setup currently. I will probably do so until I can swing a live deck, then I will turn it 180 degrees and go to a one man setup.

I do need to upgrade my dust collector system. I have a 3hp 12 inch blower, but it just doesn't handle the added dust that the LT70 seems to generate.

I am glad I spent the extra coin...especially when I change blades. I really like the way the LT70 "opens up" for a barrier free removal and install of bands. It really is a 20 second job.
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

woodbowl

Quote from: Bibbyman on January 03, 2006, 01:10:38 PM
I knew I had some pictures someplace of the LT70 hooked up to their conveyor and board separator system..




Bibbyman, that is slick! Got any more pictures of that set up? I'm wondering also what BF production the WM70 VS the WM40-Super can produce.
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

Bibbyman

I've got another picture or two but they don't show the material handling equipment any better than these two.

The LT70 can use the same material handling equipment that is used on the LT300.  The dragback slides the slab, flitch or board off onto the conveyor that takes it to the transfer table.  At the top of the transfer table there is a set of kickers that the operator can cause the slab to dump over into the slab hopper or let the flitch or board slide down the other way to the guy stacking and running the edger.  This system is ran by three people, a sawyer, a guy pulling from the transfer table and feeding the edger and a stacker.

You won't find the material handling equipment on the regular WM web site.  You have to go to their industrial equipment side AWMV.

Link to AWMV  --- > AWMV Wood-Mizer Industral

Click on "Material Handling".

FYI,  Wood-Mizer also makes their log deck available for the LT40 Super.

I've not heard of the conveyor and transfer table being used with the LT40 Super.  I think the main problem is that the opporator is at the wrong in (in the way) and the HD box is also in the way.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

FiremanEd

Woodbowl,

  Check out some video links I have at  www.imageevent.com/fireals there are a couple videos that will show you how the conveyer and transfer deck work.

Woody,,,

Dream on,, the log loader is the same as the Timber Harvester. The 70'll have to stay the way the TimberHarvester is now.

Biddy and everyone else.

Thanks for all the insight and thoughts. We commited to the LT-70 AC today. Marty in PA has one that was backed out on after it was on the assembly line that was available. It'll be delivered in 2 weeks with the 6' extension and roller table.   Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

VA-Sawyer, 

   Logs?? did you say you had logs??????   Send them on up. We'll take them. We got about 40mbf of logs in since you were here last Thursday and expecting 2-3 loads a day from a new supplier. We're hoping he can keep up the volume like he says he can.

One things for sure, life is never boring...

Eddie
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

FiremanEd

Quote from: hawby on January 04, 2006, 09:27:39 PM
but I just freaked out at everything being backwards.

I know that feeling Howby, when we first got the LT300 that saw cutting towards me was more than a little concerning. It flat messed with my head for the 1st few days, it just wasn't "right" for that saw to cut towards me.
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

woodbowl

Quote from: FiremanEd on January 04, 2006, 11:04:40 PM
Woodbowl,

  Check out some video links I have at  www.imageevent.com/fireals there are a couple videos that will show you how the conveyer and transfer deck work.

It looks like you and Woody are having a big time with that LT300.
One day ...... maybe?

Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

MartyParsons

You guys take all of the work out of being a salesman ( Consultant) Thanks for the great answers!  ;D If you know somone who likes to walk we have a LT70HDD62 non remote available. 39 hours and not even broke in yet. Discount price $ 41,000.00 comes with debarker most other options are standard on the LT70. It is in the Maine ASC. A 80 year old purchased it and returned it for a remote LT70. If that price looks good give us a call.
Thanks Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

Bibbyman

You couldn't just convert this mill to a remote? 

Did he run it with a seat?

I know early on you guys made some non-remote LT70s because the remote wasn't ready.  I didn't know y-all were still making them.  With the 62 Cat it can't be that old.

Still have the warrantee or what's left of it?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

MartyParsons

It is a 2005, yes he did have the seat on it.  Warranty will be 2 year from purchase date. Just like it was a new machine.  It would be to costly to change it over to Remote. Yes we still offer the LT70D62 non remote.
   We have sold 3 of them last year (in our area) . We have a customer who is averging 800 to 1000 bd/ft per hour with one. He has over 5000 hours on it. Just checked on him this week, said it is the best investment he ever made. He has two helpers and walks on every cut. He likes the .055 x 1 1/4x 9 degree Double Hard blade. 1 million bd/ft per year. Sawing grade logs Cherry, White Oak, Red Oak and Tulip Popular. All low grade go to the Frick Circle mill. They also have a LT40 Super at the same operation.
Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

woodbowl

Concerning WoodMizer LT40 frames:   As far as I can tell, the manual and LT40HD frames and masts are the same, but what about the LT40 Super? When it comes right down to just the frames and masts, what are the actual differences between the Super and the LT40 HD?
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

MartyParsons

There is a difference on the frame of the LT40 and the LT40HD because of the hydraulic clamp. The frame is cut and a area is cut away to accept the clamp to increase the travel open. There is a box tubing welded in the area on the out side of the frame. There are also weldmounts at different areas to accept the hydraulic components.
     The difference on the LT40 Hydraulic and LT40Super Hydraulic is all components, the frame is the same ( As far as I know). Heavier electric motors on forward feed, power feed, and hydraulics, and of course Horse Power  :o The board return and return table is standard on the LT40Super Hydraulic. It also available on the Standard Hydraulic as an option. The electrical system is also heavier on the LT40Super .
     We get a lot of questions about changing a Non Hydraulic mill over to Hydraulics and changing a Standard Hydraulic to a Super Hydraulic. Yes it can be done, but ( There is always a but) There are components that support other components that a owner tends to neglect and there is also a issue for ordering parts if an owner changes the mill and it changes hands. example: if you change the hydraulic system to super and do not up grade the alternator to a heavier out put you will be running the motors on low amps and the motor could fail. All Wood-Mizer mills have a revision # that customer service uses to help you and us with getting you the proper part. When we have a retrofit available we document this on your file if you chose to purchase the up grade. If the owner makes changes to the mill somtimes it is a challange to get the correct part if it not mentioned at the time of the parts order.
     I hope this helps.
Thanks Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

woodbowl

Quote from: MartyParsons on January 06, 2006, 07:38:02 AM

     The difference on the LT40 Hydraulic and LT40Super Hydraulic is all components, the frame is the same ( As far as I know).


That's what I thought. Which leads me to the real question that I've wanted to ask all along. The LT40HD Super can accept a 51 HP Cat. If the mast is the same, it is within limits for the additional weight. Is the headrig the same?  .............. structurally of course (not refering to having enough room, components in the way or components needed ect. In addition, I am wondering if the extra load is within limits for the up/down chains, sprockets and right angle gear box.  :P
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

Brucer

Quote from: woodbowl on January 06, 2006, 10:43:44 AM

... In addition, I am wondering if the extra load is within limits for the up/down chains, sprockets and right angle gear box. :P

The parts list for my '05 LT40 manual mill shows a different gearbox/pulley/shaft/bearing for the 34HP diesel / 36 HP gas engines. The lift chain is a double RS50 -- my chain book shows a maximum allowable load of 2380 pounds for the RS50-2 chain. The lift motor's the same, but the lifting speed is slower for the bigger engines.

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

MartyParsons

Is the headrig the same?  .............. What do you refer as the Headrig? There are many parts different. The up /down motor is 3/4 hp and it is faster up and down. woodbowl is correct on the assembly gear box is heavier. I am not sure about the specs for the chain. Those engineers just dont drive trains.  ;D I see you have a 1995 LT40 the mill. The saw head has gone through many changes since then. I am sure Wood-Mizer would not recomend you installing a 51 HP Cat engine on your mill. I can start naming the changes that I am aware of but it would take forever and it may not be correct. Please be carefull if  you attempt a major change like this. Safety First  :)
Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

woodbowl

Quote from: MartyParsons on January 07, 2006, 07:19:24 AM
What do you refer as the Headrig? .............  I see you have a 1995 LT40 the mill. The saw head has gone through many changes since then.

Headrig may not be the right term. I tried to seperate the mill into 3 groups. The frame, mast and headrig.  ( sawhead) ??

The mill I have is actually a 1988 manual that I have modified by adding my own hydraulics. The main 3 groups still seem to be the same welded joints and materials. I'm comparing structural integrety of the basic 3 groups not the added components.
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

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