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what approach for spruce TSI

Started by maple flats, December 21, 2005, 09:28:28 PM

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maple flats

I just came accross ( actually belonged to my dad, now my mom, planted by dad but never had anything done to them) about 3 acres of white spruce planted in about 1962 on a spacing of 7' x 7'. At this point the interior trees have done self pruning and edge trees are for the most part not too lopsided but do have branches still growing when light gets to them. I find most of the trees are about 8-10" dbh with a very few upwards to about 15" dbh. How should I thin this for the best long term production? I am considering buying this piece from mom and she would never do anything with it. There is a couple of white pines mixed in but most are white spruce. What kind of market for the thinned ones, I think most are too small to try to mill with a peterson but it could be done. I haven't scaled the height but most are within a few feet of each other heightwise. Is there enough to consider pulp for the most of the trimmed out trees? I'm not sure why I never checked this spot out before, for some reason I just overlooked it until a guy called to ask if I wanted to but the adjacent piece that is basically a useless little triangle of 1/3 acre with nothing but brush on it and 1 sugarmaple with 3 main stems.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

jon12345

This is what you have now, approximately - based on a 9'' avg. diameter.

890 trees/acre
.44 sq. ft./tree
393 sq. ft./acre  basal area

100-140 sq. ft./acre of basal area is recommended.  If you want to give more accurate numbers I can run them for you - I have a lot of free time on my hands.

You may want to go through and remove cull trees first, to bring the basal area closer to this target area. spruce is susceptible to snow and ice damage, you might have noticed already.  Windthrow in spruce occurs in heavily thinned stands with shallow or poorly drained soil where it cannot develop a good root system.
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

393 ft^2/acre??? You realize that's close to 90 cord/acre? I think your calculation is a bit ambitiously high since probably maple flats did not use a prism tally or fix area plots to get his average.  ;)

70-90 ft^2/acre is usually targeted for semi or commercial spacing of spruce up my way. 140 is awfully thick for young spruce, ideal for mature trees though (about 34 cords/acre). And at that, there will be alot of runt trees that should be removed.  But, 100 isn't bad for immature spruce, that's about 20-22 cords/acre. Just cruised a mixedwood site last week with 175 ft^2/acre (40 cord/acre), terrible thick. It had spruce and fir co-doms & suppressed with an aspen overstory 50 years old.

I read some reports about predictions of plantation white spruce yeilding over 60 cords/acre at age 50. I guess this is possible since there aren't as many natural openings in the planted forest. But, in the back of my mind I'm thinking the estimate is a bit ambitious. I've seen some thinnings of fir and they are getting 35-40 m^2/ha or 36 cords/acre, and those stands are tight. Fir grows faster and tapers less than white spruce. I'm thinking someone is looking to much at growth models and graphs which focus on ideal conditions on a  computer and not looking closer at PSP's. It also depends on the yeild curve model they are using, there can be quite a wide margin there as well. I'm also wondering about the acurracy of the data collection. Trouble is with some of these studies there is no outside independent audits.  ::)

I think the best method would be to harvest every 3 or 4 row for your trails and thin out the less desireable trees in between. Maybe before-hand mark an acre off and spot the harvest trees with some paint, then do a prism sweep in there to make sure your target basal area is being left. If your stand is sheltered you can leave the stand on the low end of your target. If your up on a knoll than leave the stand on the high end of your target density range.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jon12345

Ok heres my math



7' spacing  49 ft^2/tree  43560/49 = 890

average 8"-10" = 9    9^2 x .00545415 = .4418 ft^2/tree

ba/tree X # of trees = BA/Acre
.4418 ft^2 x890 = 393 ft^2 Basal Area/Acre
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

Nothing wrong with the math Jon.

After reviewing some research on the variation of white spruce under various growing conditions, it does appear that it can yield close to 90 cord/acre on exceptional sites with than density and with better than average growing conditions. I'm breathless.  ;D

Here's a report to look at, in particular look at Table 4.  :o

Long link repaired by busy admin
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jon12345

The numbers I arrived at, correspond with Table 4, for a 20 yr plantation. Probably suppress each other, even though they are the same height and are being restricted by limiting factors.   

Link fixed by Admin


Maybe a photo session is in order?
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

Jon :D I was editing my previous post and guess what, we found the same report. :D Apparently there are some 80 foot plantations in Ontario at age 50 with 80 + cords/acre.

It's very difficult to tell from photos, nothing beats standing right there in the stand. ;)

Jon that table shows volume, your calcs are for basal area. And we are talking about a 50 year plantation, not 20. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ed_K

 MapleFlats, if you decide to thin the stand some, get ahold of ClearLake in N.Y. They buy spruce down to 5" as long as its straight. I sold 5 tt loads to them a few yrs back. They paid good $$$.
They advertise in the Northeastern logger. If you don't find them let me know and I'll im to you.
Ed K

jon12345

I have been using that site quite a bit recently. :P

a picture is worth 1,000 words, maybe more

but what we got so far is...'bout 250   :D
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

Jon, you won't have an idea for scale unless someone stands up a range pole for a guage for heights and holds up a tape or a ball cap for scale in diameter.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Here in New Brunswick, when asked what size spruce/fir/pine yields 0.5 m^3 (17.66 ft^3) the answer is 30 cm (12 inch) @ dbh. That's on average.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

maple flats

Thanks guys. I will be thinning but it is too thick to do it simply. I may have to start by removing every other row and every other tree in the remaining rows, but looking at the best trees and saving them. What is this prism you speak of and can I self train to use one to get what you need? If I put my mind to it I can learn anything. Just need to study it until I figure out exactly what the principle of it is. I don't do well by memorizing something I don't understand. If I need more info I can go in and do a random spot check of dbh and heights except the heights will need to be checked by a rangefinder sighting the top because there is no place around the trees where I can stand back 66' and use my cruising stick, just too thick. The stand is surrounded by taller woods on 3 sides and open to the road on the 4th. The north and west sides are much taller hardwoods and the southerly side is comprised of  a mix of softwoods equal in height and a few feet taller for the first 100 feet and the next to the south is taller hardwoods with a few spruces mixed in. All three of these sides are not on my mother's land but rather a neighbor. The easterly side is open to the highway. Our prevailing winds are out of the west/ north west. If we get a east wind it brings a lot of foul weather but rarely brings real high winds. If I thin it to about 1/4 the density it now has and have a market for it I will and then I could proceed from there with pruning limbs similar to how it was shown on a thread about NZ I believe. Does this approach sound right or do I need to rethink the entire thing?
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

SwampDonkey

Sounds like a good approach to me. Just be careful about pruning, that can cause stem rot in spruce if you cut into the swell where the limb meets the trunk. Leave an inch long branch stub. Pruning perimeter trees that have alot of extra light will encourage dormant buds to grow new limbs.

A wedge prism is a piece of glass which is ground to a defined angle such as 97.22 minutes. It measures basal area of trees at breast height (4.5 feet), which can be translated into density and volume with equations. I think you can get prisms for 10 ft^2/acre, this is called the basal area factor (BAF) and has a guage constant (k) of 0.030303 where k=sqroot(BAF/10890). The way you count (or tally) trees is by viewing the tree with the prism held to one eye and the other eye remains open and focused at dbh of the tree. Both eyes send an image back to the brain and if these images overlap the tree counts. Each counted tree represent 10 ft^2/acre in this example. If its a 14 ft^2/acre prism, then each tree represents 14 ft^2/acre. A plot consists of all the trees tallied in a 360 degree sweep. If you tally by diameter class  4   6   8  10 ...... you can use a spreadsheet to calculate density and volume. You can eyeball the density table to find the average diameter in the ball park or use formula at bottom. If you have volume equations for your site you can find volume. The larger the tree is, the further away it can be from your prism to count.

To find density (stems/acre) for each diameter class

Density=(tally x BAF/(0.005454 X Diameter Class^2))/#plots)

a term you may here is 'Tree factor' (TF) and it's part of the above equation:

TF=BAF/(0.005454 X Diameter Class^2)

To find Volume:

Volume table value at that diameter class x Density above

To find average diameter using a spread sheet:

sum(tally by diameter class X Diameter class)/trees tallied

When I say 'tally by diameter class' that means the number of trees noted in your sample for each diameter. You normally use a table with square cells under each diameter class and put a dot to represent each tree. The first 4 trees are represented by dots and then next four are lines joining the dots, forming a box. Then the nineth and tenth trees are diagonal lines. So a tally of every ten trees looks like a box with an X in it. ;)

You can easily make a spreadsheet with the formulas to speed up calculations.

I've attached a sample worksheet so you can see how to set one up. This one is for fixed area plots where no prism is needed and the equations are different. The volumes table at the bottom would have to be substituted for your area as well. Also, note this is a metric worksheet. Formulas above are imperial.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey



Tally sheet, grade 1 can be sawlogs, grade 2 pulp.

The Tally above is in metric, convert to imperial. So a 10 cm class becomes 4 inch class. In this example I had 4 points with a BAF=10 ft^2/acre. This example will calculate the first cell with tally = 4 trees.

Density

Density=(tally x BAF/(0.005454 X Diameter Class^2))/#points)
= (4 trees X 10 ft^2 per acre/(0.005454 x 4^2  inch))/4 points)
= 114.6 stems/acre

Basal Area

BA=0.005454 X Diameter Class^2 x Density
= 0.005454 x 4^2 inches x 114.6 stems/acre
=10 ft^2/acre



This example will calculate the fifth cell with tally = 2 trees, 18 cm = 7 inches.

Density

Density=(tally x BAF/(0.005454 X Diameter Class^2))/#points)
= (2 trees X 10 ft^2 per acre/(0.005454 x 7^2  inch))/4 points)
= 18.7 stems/acre

Basal Area

BA=0.005454 X Diameter Class^2 x Density
= 0.005454 x 7^2 inches x  18.7 stems/acre
=5 ft^2/acre
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey



Prism looking at 'in' tree to be tallied




Prism looking at 'out' tree, no tally

The prism is held over a point on a stick at 4.5 feet above ground called diameter at breast height (dbh). Hold the prism upright with thumb and index finger over the necklace hole. You make a 360 degree sweep without moving from the established point. You can move in an arc from the point for obstructions in view of a tree. If you find a borderline tree or have doughts about the tree for tally you can use the 'limiting distance factor' (LDF).

Using LDF

k or guage constant = sqroot(BAF/10890) = sqroot(10/10890)=0.0303

LD = diameter at breast height/(12 X K)

= Diameter/(12 X 0.0303)
OR
=2.7503 x Diameter

LDF = 2.7503 for a 10 ft^2/acre prism

What limiting distance tells you is that the tree of the measured diameter has to be within that distance to count. If you measure the distance from point centre to the centre of the tree and the tree is further than the calculation of LD, then the tree does not count.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

maple flats

Wow, that gives me something to sink my teeth into. The next time the weather keeps me out of the woods I will study this so that I can do the prescribed measurements and will then go test it. Where would one find a prism? What is their exact name to look it up? Judging from the picture you supplied it looks like it would not be real expensive. Thanks much.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: maple flats on December 23, 2005, 09:27:54 PM
Wow, that gives me something to sink my teeth into. The next time the weather keeps me out of the woods I will study this so that I can do the prescribed measurements and will then go test it. Where would one find a prism? What is their exact name to look it up? Judging from the picture you supplied it looks like it would not be real expensive. Thanks much.

Ask for a wedge prism with a basal area factor of 10 ft^2 , or 20 or 30. The higher the BAF the less trees to tally. Be sure to plug the proper BAF into your formulas, which ever you choose to cruise with. You should be able to get a prism at any forestry supply shop or online. Any that I've bought locally come out of Oregon. Make sure you don't throw your prism in with the pocket change, keys and jacknife in your pocket, could scratch or break it. Remember it's glass. You can get prisms in an amber color, but I find it's harder to read in dense forest. Make yourself a strong necklace from some nylon string. It'll probably be $70-80 bucks to buy the prism. The prices don't seem to fluctuate on them much.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jon12345

A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

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