Trying to Decide on the Peterson ATS

[jpgreen]

I'm pretty sold now on the Peterson mill, but the best I can afford is the ATS 8" with 24hp Honda.

I 'm wondering if this machine is more for the private homeowner vs. using it for a commercial starter mill?

I will be milling mostly Doug Fir and Pine here in N. California, and I will be working by myself much of the time, but if the job is sizable enough, I can hire help.  I also have the need to work on inclines and the Peterson sales person told me the ATS is by far the easiest to push up hill. Flat ground is the exception, in these parts.

For personal use, I have 2 homes and 2 shops to build, but I also have many people in my area that want me to mill for them. My chainsaw mill is just to labor intensive, and I turn down work.  I think there would be a good oportunity to mill lap siding, and flooring for people in my area, as well as dimetional lumber.

I'm wondering also if the dual elevation cranks will be a problem, limiting my productivity greatly?

I'm not un acustomed to hard work- I just don't want to spend all this money, and be under-machined to the point where I can't earn some decent money with it.  There is virtually no competition in my area for milling.

Sure would like opinions on this, and especially from ATS owners.  Thanks!.. and Merry Christmas!

[Captain]

Well, welcome JP and it sounds like you've got a lot of work planned.

We have several members here with ATS mills.  Many use them for at least a part time income.  I personally have a production frame (WPF) and it is a great income maker...especially with help.

I'll let the ATS guys chime in here and may be back with more comments.   

Captain

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Welcome,  JP

It looks like you're on the right track to me, judging by your conditions,
log locations, and your intention to work alone a good bit.

I use a Peterson Winch Production Frame design, but right now
have a situation which would benefit from the ATS design.  I must
remind myself, however, that the WPF is still my best bet for my
normal situation.

I had a call today from a guy 100 miles away with one 10,000 lb. log
he wanted sawed up.   I will do it; and he will have about $3000 worth of
fine Red Oak lumber when I am gone.   In this case, since the bill will
be substantial,  I offered a turnkey deal.   I will have my own experienced
helper and will set up a stack foundation on concrete blocks, provide the
cross members, stickers, then stack and cover, etc.   

All he will have to do is ...

PAY ME !    8)   8)

I just love sawing wood and getting paid to have fun like this!  And, hey,
I have lost ten pounds just in time for Christmas overeating, too!

Phil L.

[jpgreen]

That sounds Great! Specially whilst I'm sittin' here eat'n a garlic chicken pizza..  :D

[Troy]

JP,  I too pondered over the choice of a mill - what would work best for my useage, what I could afford, etc.  After a couple years of research I knew the Peterson swing mill was truely what I wanted, but I almost settled for a cheaper band mill just to get me going without spending so much money.  Well I finally made the decision to go with what I felt was best for me and ordered an ATS 8/27 plus slabber attachment.  It should be here in two weeks!  Do a search and you will find some very impressive pictures of ATS mills in use throughout the forum.  Lots of good information and support here.  From what I can tell so far I don't think you or I will be disapointed in this mill.  Hopefully I will be able to give you more assurance once I get mine up and running in a few weeks!  Stay tuned!

Troy

[jpgreen]

Very good, very good!

- I'll be waiting for updates!

I was thinking of the slabber too, but I've got a husky 3120, and big bars so I can slab to my hearts content for now.  The thin kerf blade- now there's the ticket for 2x6's. 

[Ianab]

While the WPF is a better mill, the ATS isn't a toy  ;) Remember the blade and engine are the same, they cut the same, it's just the rails / controls are different.

The ATS compares more closely with the Lucas mill, and many people use them commercially.

The 2 vertical adjustments are more of a pain on small logs, on large logs you cut many boards before you have to adjust the vertical. But small logs are a pain whatever mill you have.

Anyway.. one might be 10 times faster than a chainsaw mill and the other might be 12x. Still a HUGE upgrade ;)

As Phil said the ATS can actually be an advantage if you are on un-even ground and moving the mill from log to log.

Maybe look at a bracket to mount your chainsaw mill under the swingblade with a couple of wingnuts. Chainsaw milling is a lot easier if you can stand up and push the Peterson carriage on it's rails rather than getting down and pushing the chainsaw. That way you can cut boards, cut a full width slab, cut more boards around the pith, cut another slab and take the last boards from the bottom. You can also get a full width slab from each log by rolling the 2/3 sawn log over and cutting from the bottom. Gets one good slab from each log without having to switch to chainsaw.

Cheers

Ian

[jpgreen]

I just read an old post where KiwiJake has a super modified ATS?  Power feed etc,.  That sounds very nice.

Can the ATS be set up say on a 30 dgree slope (side up and side down) blocking and then adjusting the uphill side rail lower and the down hill side higher?  I imagine you would be limited on the size diameter log.

ALL of my milling is on uneven sloped (even steep) ground. and moving from log to log.

My chainsaw mill is a "WoodBug" made by a guy in Canada, and it is a very unique system for a chainsaw.  It cuts accurately with just barely above 1/4" kerf.  I can saw 1000BF between sharpenings due to his method of chain sharpening which is fantastic.

Problem is it's extremely labor intensive turning big logs, and pushing the saw through the log.  You bust you but for 500 BF in a day.  I mean bust! specially on inclines.  I've done a lot of my own construction with this mill, butt as I get a little older, I need an easier go at it, plus I need to mill for other people, and that's not really possible with this mill.  see it at:

http://www.woodbug.com

Thanks for the info, and please keep it coming... JP

[brdmkr]

JP

I don't know if this will help you or not as I don't own a Peterson.  However, I do have a Lucas 618.  It seems to me that there are a good many similarities between the Lucas mill and the ATS.  I really like my mill, but I do encourage you to get all the horsepower you can get and I also wish I had the 8" blade.  Sometimes I even think I'd like a 10" blade, but there was a discussion here earlier that makes me think the 8 is better. 

I really like the portability and the ease of setting up over larger logs.  If I thought I would leave the saw set up, I'd likely go with a WPF or even one of the multiblade mills.

Good luck with your choice!

[jpgreen]

As much as I like the thought of just pullin' up, drop the hydraulics and lift the log on the frame and start millin', it's just a rare ocasion being able to do that up here.  Weez in the mountains!

I've got 4 customers that want milling right now, most logs at 30". I've got my eye on 2 down in the National forest, which boarders my property- ones a good 34" diameter Ponderosa, and the others a 4' plus downed old growth Doug Fir (gotta check and see if she's still good).  Both in a fairly remote setting. There's always trees left to rot, cause the ecomaniacs won't let em' log.  Trailer won't do for sure.

I've got two down behind my house at 25degree inclines.  I've got tons of trees on my property at inclines with no close drive up.

It all adds up to a ______________ Mill?   Feel free to fill in the blank..  :D

[Minnesota_boy]

It all adds up to a ______________ Mill?   Feel free to fill in the blank..  :D

It all adds up to a winch mounted on the Mill?  How about 2 winches, on on the mill and one on the truck or trailer?  You can move a pretty big log with a winch and you can move it a fair distance if time is not a problem.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Ya still gotta get the main carriage to the tracks. If that's not a problem, the ATS should work fine. They are a good seller, soooo, you could always upgrade to a WPF or ASM  : ;D ;D ;)

[Ianab]

You do have to be able to get to the log still, but the mills are pretty portable.
I can move mine on a quad bike trailer if I take 2 trips. Could do it in one but thats a top heavy load for steep ground. Then use the quad bike to haul the sawn boards out. Takes a few trips, but like you say sometimes just not practical to use heavy machinery.
You will want a winch to at least swing the log so it runs across the slope. Setting up across the hillside isn't too bad, but milling up and down a hill is tough.



Cheers

Ian

[Part_Timer]

I have an 8"ATS 25 hp Kohler and let me just say that it is no toy mill.  I don't have a lot of time on mine yet but have had a blast with it.  Here are a couple of examples













I have not found anythign to big to cut yet.  If you look at the first picture you can see the blocks the mill is on.  That tree is 57" across and 18 foot long.  the other logs are 30" red oak.

We are starting to get the hang of things now and our production rate is climbing.  With big logs and the micro kerf we're running about 500bf an hour.  I think that this will go up some yet.  I'm getting about 700bf between sharpenings on the micro blade cutting ash and oak and we're averaging 6% above scale with it.  Just don't hit any metal with it.  Personal experiance :'(

While the 2 cranks slows ya down a bit it is nice to be able to adjust for side to side slopes on yards.  Just put more blocking on the lower side.  I have 6" of blocks under mine in the yard.   



Best of luck

Tom

[Tillaway]

JPGreen
I will try to keep you out of trouble.  The first things is that the Forest Service will consider you cutting their logs just across the property line a timber trespass and charge you triple stumpage.  I am 99% certain they will not sell you them either.

Some other things to consider, California's Forest Practice rules  require a THP (Timber Harvest Plan) to log a stand of trees.  These must be written by an RPF (Registered Professional Forester) for you to be able to harvest timber.  You can get exemptions (section 1038 if I remember right) these also must be written by and RPF or in some cases an LTO (Licensed Timber Operator).  These are easy to get and allows up to 10% of the volume to be removed from a stand without a really large bill from the RPF.  You must be an LTO to log in the state.  This includes on your own property.  You cannot cut trees, mill lumber and sell it with out proper licenses even if it originates from your own property.  I figure it out one time and you could violate something like 17 state laws by simply cutting a load of firewood out of your backyard and selling out of your truck on a busy corner.

Basically cutting and selling lumber in the state of California is illegal unless you comply with all the roughly 238 pages of California's Forest Practices Rules (there is a loop hole here unless they have plugged it but its out of the scope of this post).  This is not taking into account any other CCR's (California Code of Regulations) you will have to comply with, sales tax, labeling (technically firewood has to labeled as a carcinogen), zoning and county restrictions.

Now the upshot, you can mill some else's logs into lumber.  As long as you do not sell lumber or firewood the FPA does not apply.  Unless they changed the rules you can cut trees and mill them into lumber for your own personal use only.  As soon as you sell them puts the FPA into full force.  Your best bet down there is to buy logs, and be sure they come from an operations with an approved THP or exemption.  Or are from a federal source.  The feds do not have to comply with Cal's FPA and could be your best source, particularly if you buy some of the smaller sales they put out.  Its actually easier to deal with the feds than California.  Another thing that is a huge opportunity is to get a LTO (not hard to do) and write exemptions to salvage the partial loads of the big landowners property.  You will need about a 2 million liability policy before any of them would consider it but its worth a shot.

[jpgreen]

Thanks for the replys. 

The forest service works a little differently in our neck of the woods.  They actually help  guys like me out, as they do not like to see these trees go to waste neither.  Wasn't going to go in and take em' illegally. They are dead and down. I wil look into the other aspect of your comments, which is good information.

Eventhough my set ups would inlcude many inclines in remote areas, getting the gear back in is very do-able.
My concerns were more on the possibilty of setting up the ATS on uneven terrain and inclines.

Now I can see that the separate rail winches would be the ticket for that application.

[iain]

phil l

found this in your gallery, this is the exact combo i got, 36" cut with the rollers off
you only get real dirty and fumey on one side (my side) >:( :


  iain

[Dan_Shade]

what is the woodbug filing method, exactly?

I've seen mention of it, but I've always been lucky to get 100bf cut between sharpenings (if that) with my chainsaw slabbing.

[Minnesota_boy]

phil l

found this in your gallery, this is the exact combo i got, 36" cut with the rollers off
you only get real dirty and fumey on one side (my side) >:( :


  iain

What did it cost to get the women with it?  I think that should be a pretty good combo, you sit back drinking a cold one while the women run the chainsaw mill.  8) 8) :D

[iain]

If you look closely at the pic,  the women are reversing!!!!!

nuff said

(where is the smilie for running from Asy or Roxie) :D



iain

[solodan]

JP, where are you located? I would guess somewhere around Trinity County by you're mention of the steep terrain and Doug Fir.

Hopefully Tillaway's words were not too discouraging for you, as I think he was just trying to do what he said and keep you out of trouble. He has some valid points, but I feel I need to ad some clarification here to give you more encouragement. 

The California Forest Practice Rules apply only on private lands. In your case, as with mine , buying timber sales from the Forest Service is easier and costs very little $.

Harvesting and removal of timber requires either a Timber Operators License, or a Limited Timber Operators License. Processing (in your case sawing)does not require a license. most of the trees that you will be getting from private lands will probably be trees that came from one of the exemptions that Tillaway mentioned. Myself, I get free trees from the tree service and utility companies, who are licensed, and have already filed the exemptions. Between the free trees and the cheap forrest service sales you should be able to obtain as much timber as you want as a one man operation. sawing lumber for a land owner for his own use is also a possibility.

As far as the ATS goes, I think it would be a good choice. I considered a WPF, but the uneven terrain kept leading me back to the Lucas 827 or ATS. I bought the Lucas 827 , with some extra blades and the siding attachment for $11000 to my doorstep. Yes it was used, but only 2.5 hours on it, but they were my 2.5 hrs. otherwise I may have bought a Peterson. I do like that you can cut with the taper with the Lucas, it just makes for more walking from one end to the other to adjust the vertical adjustments.

[Tillaway]

No licenses required for operating on federal lands.  None of the California B.S. applies.  Private is a whole other ball game.  One big opprotunity is collecting up all the partial loads and cull logs off private lands.  It seems that utilization is very poor on private lands.  Partial loads of odd species and cull logs that would be happily shipped to the mill in Oregon are routinely left on the landings.  I scaled about 80mbf of good Doug Fir left on landings on just one private timber sale.  A couple logs scaled over 1000 bf net.  They were left due to a small rot pockets and minor defects.  You could make a good living salvaging off of just one property owner I did allot of work for.  There is a gold mine of wood in those hills, if you can find a market.

[solodan]

There is a gold mine of wood in those hills, if you can find a market.

There sure is. lots of blue stain is left behind. lots of single hazard trees left behind, especially by PG+E and CalTrans. Small residential lots  with big trees are often left to rot by the homeowner who doesn't have the equipment to saw them. The tree service that fell them have the license and exemptions filed, but it doesn't make sense for them to try to get the logs out from behind the house and then pay for trucking. a guy with a swinger can set up on the log and take out the lumber. I see trees with several mbf of good timber left to rot. now with the new fire codes in effect, more trees than ever seem to be getting cut from residential property. I met a guy who recently subdiveded 11 acres into 4 parcels, well he probably cut 200 trees on the property and now has logs laying all over the place.  The stupid thing is he is putting cedar siding on his house and pine walls and lids. Pines and cedars just laying around and then he buys $100K in finish lumber. ???

[maple flats]

I have an 8" ATS and for what you are planning I think it is an excellent choice. I would suggest you set up when ever possible with the uphill track level and not sloping up or down. Then block up the lower track some to level side to side and do the rest with the track winches. As far as HP I think you would do well with a 24 HP. I have the 20 horse and do OK but the extra HP would come in handy many times. If you keep the blade sharp it will cut fast. Sharpening is quick, (about 3-4 minutes) to do the entire blade and you are back to sawing. If you must saw with the track pointing up or down hill the saw carraige will be heavy to work with since on the up hill cut you must raise the weight of the motor/carraige (called the center unit) while you pull or push the blade thru the cut. If the angle is very steep you might want to rig up a hand or elec. winch. When I need to saw with the track only about a 1/2" per foot drop it gets tiring real fast. More than this angle I personally would use some means of assistance on the up pull, and to control the drop rate in the cut. You certainly would not want to loose control and have the center unit launch off the down hill track. 8) ;D

[solodan]

Do you have any pictures of the up hill assistance with the winch? I have never done this but I have thought about it on inclines. I have also thought about the consequences of a runaway carraige. Moving the unit uphill does get tiring fast.

[jpgreen]

Wow great tips from everyone!  I'm trying to scrape up the green for an ATS right now.

I've already designed some real heavy duty quick adjustable log dogs.

[Part_Timer]

have ya got any pictures of those dogs?

[Fla._Deadheader]

  We wanna see them Dogs  ;D ;D

[jpgreen]

I've got some final checking to do when my swing gets here, but they lock down hard, and are slick.  I'm adding a jacking feature also.

These will all attach to a beam length of your choosing, and quickly be slid and installed to whatever width needed for a log (or logs) you want. No drilling.  Also, the jacking is going to put the log, or logs at the level you want.

I do this kinda stuff for a living, so what I'm prolly going to do is offer them for sale.

I will post pics then.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Gotcha  ;D :D

[solodan]

Just send a pair to me and I'll try them out for everyone.

I would have asked you to send them to Harrold, but he's so far away now. ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Might be, but, the Industrial Invention would be MUCH safer down here.  : ;D :D

[jpgreen]

I'll send Dan the first demo pair.. 

On these dogs, how thin a slab or how much hold do you need to clear the blade?  Some of the designs I've seen look like they're locking the log about 1.5" from the base.  The Peterson with a cut notch seems to give the best room to cut the slap pretty skinny.

I've got my ATS money in hand now, and trying to get em' on the phone.  Ya think they'd be asleep or sumpthin'... or on the other side of the world.. sheesh!

Questions I never thought of is how smooth a cut do these swingers do with the standard blades and then with the new thin kerf?

Has anyone here used the Lap siding attachment on the Peterson, and if so how'd (well) it work?

[Captain]

JP, they're closed for their Christmas holiday.   _earmuff  Actually more like this.... smiley_hollywood_cool  ....they're all at the beach.

Give me an PM with your phone number, I can handle your order from here.

Most people who order a Peterson end up with a Tapered weatherboard attachment.  Mine is great!!!  I just can't learn how to handle the stuff for drying without degrade, so I put it up green.  I'm trying to learn the best way to stack and dry it so I can cut some for resale :P

The finished cut with the microkerf vs the standard blade is a bit different, there are more teeth on the microkerf.  Typically, the more teeth the smoother the cut, but I'll tell you, a properly prepped standard blade can cut pretty darn smooth!!


Captain

[Husband]

hey, back from the beach, man its hot ;D.......anyways, got your message.
As Captain said, you can PM him for the order and he will ensure that I cut my time of short at the beach to do your mill. 8)
Have a good Christmas to all you guys on the FF, from the crew at Petersons.
Chris

[solodan]

Yeah, just send them to Harold, that way he can get started on our guest house.  ;)   I always wanted a vacation house in Costa Rica, didn't you guys? ;D

[Part_Timer]

I've got the weatherboard att. and I like it.  I've not cut hardly any just some to show a potential customer but it was easy to do.

I'm with Captain on the smoothness part.  If ya take the time and tune the reg blades it cuts real nice.  The micro just makes a tighter criss cross pattern.  If ya have any specific questions about a micro PM myself or Ga_Boy I think there are only a couple of us in the US with them at this time.


Happy Holidays Tom

[Captain]

Actually, unless Mark got one since, I've got the 10"Microkerf (still).  It is destined for the new toy in a couple of weeks.  Looks like it is a little late getting here for Christmas.....

Captain

[Part_Timer]

Captain

Are you getting what I think your getting ???

[Captain]

The suspense is killing you, isn't it...

[Part_Timer]

Maybe : :

But I bet I'm right ;D ;D ;D

[jpgreen]

OK Capt'... spill the beans!  If there's somethin' comin' new on the Peterson inquiring minds wana no before we dump a pile of cash!!!  ;) :D ;D >:( :( 8)

[getoverit]

Best I can figure (and with the help of internet ship tracking...) My Christmas Pressie left NZ on the 21st, and is somewhere in the Fiji islands right now, then on to Los angeles by the 6th......

can ya smell the sawdust yet??? hehe ;D