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Old Growth ?

Started by chet, December 13, 2005, 07:43:39 PM

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chet

Been cutting a few very old Eastern Hemlock that threatened a home. This home was built a few years ago, on an until then undeveloped portion of a lake. A couple of these trees measured over 4' DBH. All were in pretty rough shape, so getting an accurate age was impossible. Here is a shot of a pretty sound section of one of them.


I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

pigman

I tried to count the growth rings per inch, but couldn't because the measuring tape is upside down. ::) 
That is either old growth or very slow growth. ;D
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Timburr

WOW. I'd say.  8) 8)

If it averages out at 35 rings per inch, that beast is a conservative 800 year old.
Sense is not common

Coon

I wished I had a digital camera.........  On my woodlot I have spruce that Have to be atleast 160+ years old .  I have actually cut a huge spruce that measured in excess of 58 inches accross the butt log and had 148 growth rings to verify that the tree was atleast that old.  This tree is small compared to about a dozen other living still on the woodlot.  One of these trees has to come down this winter because the top has broken off in our windstorms this past summer.  Definately gotta say that this is an old growth woodlot.   There is also a couple of diamond willow trees that is approximately 24-30 inches acrross the butt of each bottom log. :D  Remember that there 9is atleast six or more trunks to these trees.   The only way I could ever saw these above mentioned trees would be to take the woodmizer right to the trees to be sawn.  That would mean I would have to log off a trail to get it in there. ;D :D :o :o
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Tom

Our pines and especially bald cypress, get false rings.   I think it is caused by multi-flushes during a year.   Is Spruce prone to this?    Sometimes it is difficult to identify false rings but it is necessary when Foresters are called to verify the age of a tree.

getoverit

I'm not sure about hemlocks, but if this were sitka spruce, it would be worth a forutne if it were quarter sawn. Guitar makers love that stuff with tight growth rings like that because it gives extra resonance to the instrument. I've never heard of making a guitar top out of hemlock though.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

Max sawdust

Those are some tight rings on that hemlock.  We have a couple of big ones that are old growth one partially uprooted, and when it starts to fail I will mill it ::)
Out in our woods the only stumps showing from the big cut in 1900 are HUGE hemlock stumps, must have been an amazing site :o
max
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solodan

I know this guy who fell a 9' dbh sugar pine.  :o
it left a big ole stump

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Tom on December 13, 2005, 08:17:28 PM
Our pines and especially bald cypress, get false rings.   I think it is caused by multi-flushes during a year.   Is Spruce prone to this?    Sometimes it is difficult to identify false rings but it is necessary when Foresters are called to verify the age of a tree.

It's not common, but I have read some articles about Dendrochronology studies that have identified false rings in spruce. False rings represent renewed growth after a cold or dry weather causes the formation of late wood mid way through a growing season. Annual growth rings can be missing in unusually cold or dry growing seasons also. I'm thinking it would be common in the far north where it can be both cold and dry some years. I think it is more common in our white pine that have those multi-flushes in summers that start out dry then turn wet. Black spruce may not be as prone because they flush later than any tree here (Late June).

There have been many eastern hemlock aged over 600 years. We have some large hemlock here like Chet describes, they are typically on hardwood ground. I know two locally on a couple private woodlots.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom

It sure would be interesting to take a piece of it to the University and as the :Forestry college to take a look at it.  No telling what kinds of stories they might come up with.  They can associate local history to certain rings and give you an idea of what the world looked like as the tree grew.  It would make quite a project for some Grads. :)

chet

These trees were in a pure Hemlock stand. We cut one that was only 10" DBH, and it too had extremely small growth rings.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Fla._Deadheader


That's a classic example of what we pull out of the river, only it's Cypress.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

SwampDonkey

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 14, 2005, 08:54:01 AM
There have been many eastern hemlock aged over 600 years. We have some large hemlock here like Chet describes, they are typically on hardwood ground. I know two locally on a couple private woodlots.

I guess I need to clarify that my region is in the Chaleur Uplands which is the heart of shade tolerant hardwood forest composed of sugar maple, ash, yellow birch, beech, Hemlock. We are losing alot of that covertype due to clearcutting and land clearing for farms. Now to the south of me (lowlands) you find it in the wetter ground with softmaple, birch, fir and white pine. There are larger stands of it down there, but the big old fellers are on dryer knolls. Up here it's mainly scattered like the white pine is. The Sussex and Saint John area have some better growth for the south, but their fir only grows half and large as ours and dies off younger. It's more of a red spruce climate, which does even better than black spruce there. Irving found out the hard way, and no one could tell'm otherwise. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Kirk_Allen

Well when I saw the title to this thread and who posted it I thought for sure Chet was going to show us some old growth "HAIR" :D :D :D :D

Chet, I counted 34 rings between the 4 1/2 adn 5 1/2 tape marks. 

Pigman, turn your computer screen upside down then the tape is right side up.  Made it a whole lot easier to count the rings  :o :D :D :D ;D

beenthere

At what point (age?) does it become 'old' growth?   :)  (not the "HAIR" )
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

I don't think a single definition fits all areas of the globe. I've seen some old growth western hemlock forest with hardly anything but the odd huckleberry and moss and 200 miles away the undergrowth was thick with devil's club and false azalea, same forest region. Not too many tree huggers in the devil's club. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jon12345

Was that hemlock shaky?

Is shake less likely to occur is 'slower' grown trees?
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

If ya got sapsucker in your hemlock, there's no avoiding it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
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SwampDonkey

There's one section down by 4-1/4 and 4-1/2 that are so tight, they could be 25 years of growth.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Black_Bear

I'm writing a report on silvi practices and I just ran across this:

"Eastern hemlock is the most shade tolerant of all tree species (3,15,35). It can survive with as little as 5 percent of full sunlight, but under severe suppression only partial growth rings form and some may be missing entirely from the lower bole areas. In one study, from 10 to 40 rings were missing for a 120-year period of suppression. The tree is capable of withstanding suppression for as long as 400 years."

-Burns & Honkkala, USDA Ag. Handbook 654, Silvics of North America



Max sawdust

WOW :o
Hemlock is a really cool tree in my book.  It is old growth by definition, if it can hang out 400 years and wait for a break of light to take off. ;D
I forget what thread it was but I suppose something like Hemlock is not in the new forest of fast growing short lived trees like Aspen :-[
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

SwampDonkey

I can agree with that, also balsam fir is very shade tolerant and red spruce as well. Red spruce is known to respond well after being released from long suppression periods. I've counted growth rings on fir to be 50 years old and 3 or 4 feet tall and the poplar overstory was 30 years old and 45 feet tall. But, hemlock is the most shade tolerant. I planted 2 eastern hemlock under canopy about 20 years ago and they are no bigger than when I transplanted them. Just sitten there ready to burst into action I guess. I want to plant some hemlock on my lot if I can find a good source, no one grows it for reforestation around here. I have to have a source from my latitude.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Max sawdust on December 14, 2005, 08:37:15 PM
WOW :o
Hemlock is a really cool tree in my book.  It is old growth by definition, if it can hang out 400 years and wait for a break of light to take off. ;D
I forget what thread it was but I suppose something like Hemlock is not in the new forest of fast growing short lived trees like Aspen :-[

Western hemlocks (there are 2) grow as thick as grass from natural seeding. I saw clearcuts as large as 400 acres growing back with 90 % hemlock, that's what was there before and not an aspen to be seen anywhere. Aspen isn't present on the Queen Charlottes. ;D The Federal government had a huge thinning and pruning program for 10 years in hemlock stands in BC.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Max sawdust

Don't know much about western Hemlock, does it have the same growth characteristics as Eastern ???  Our woodlot in Northern Wisconsin has very little natural  regeneration of Eastern Hemlock.  Any suggestions on how to promote regeneration ???
Max
True Timbers
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IndyIan

Hey Chet,
Are the hemlock still solid all the way through?  That would be neat wood.  Near our cottage just south of algonquin park we have similar sized hemlocks with the tops breaking off as well.  Some have come down and they only have 3 or 4" of good wood around the outside.  They have over 60 years of growth in those 3" though...  Anyways, the area the trees are in a conservation reserve so I guess they are considered old growth here!
The only other time I've seen rings so dense is in Newfoundland, at the campsites they provided 100 year old spruce, around 6" diameter to burn.  

Ian

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Max sawdust on December 14, 2005, 08:56:49 PM
Don't know much about western Hemlock, does it have the same growth characteristics as Eastern ???  Our woodlot in Northern Wisconsin has very little natural  regeneration of Eastern Hemlock.  Any suggestions on how to promote regeneration ???
Max

The best is to find a nursery, or if you find a stand of hemlock with some old moist rotten stumps and logs underneath, they'll usually be plastered with hemlock seedlings.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chet

IndyIan,
No, these trees were in very bad shape. That is why we were removing them. It was dificult to find a piece good enough to get a picture. There are lots of very nice trees there also, but we left them alone.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Black_Bear

Quote from: Max sawdust on December 14, 2005, 08:56:49 PM
Any suggestions on how to promote regeneration ???
Max

Max:

I'd look here for any questions regarding silviculture:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/table_of_contents.htm

Ed

Ironwood

I got some "cookies" off a 310 year old white oak, the core was compressed. The inner 2" fell right out and looked 50 years alone. Kirk has a small cookie off a a hickory from our small wood lot that is 2-3" in diameter 50 years old from the understory near a big old oak. SLOWWWW grower. I have samples of PA. trees and the max density I find is right around 50 years per inch. Hardwood don't seem to get denser or at least I can't count them.

              REid
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Murf

SD, what's the approx. Latitude where you are, my summer place is real close to Indy's and I have so many hemlocks it isn't funny, I'd gladly send you a big ole sack of cones, or bare root seedlings.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

SwampDonkey

67.80* Easterly, 46.50* Northerly (decimal degrees)  ;D  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Murf

Well der ya go Donk, yer only 1.5° north of me, how many ya want?  :D

Cones or bare root stock .........
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

SwampDonkey

It's not too far off, only 125 miles. ;D

I prefer bareroot seedlings, sil vous plez ;) I might be able to transplant some from my cousin's lot. I wonder if hare eat them, they sure love spruce seedlings.  Man they sure can make a mess of a place. ::)

I found a couple seedlings this fall on the woodlot, got no idea where they came from. One was right on the property line. Never was a hemlock on the woodlot. Dang birds.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

OLD_ JD

i was cutting a big hemlock few year's ago...dont know the age of it but take 1 full gaz tank in the saw just to limp the..... ::)..... king of the hill ;D
canadien forest ranger

SwampDonkey

Should try making flush cuts on those pasture grown white spruce. :D ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

pedajas

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 14, 2005, 08:45:57 PM
I can agree with that, also balsam fir is very shade tolerant and red spruce as well. Red spruce is known to respond well after being released from long suppression periods. I've counted growth rings on fir to be 50 years old and 3 or 4 feet tall and the poplar overstory was 30 years old and 45 feet tall. But, hemlock is the most shade tolerant. I planted 2 eastern hemlock under canopy about 20 years ago and they are no bigger than when I transplanted them. Just sitten there ready to burst into action I guess. I want to plant some hemlock on my lot if I can find a good source, no one grows it for reforestation around here. I have to have a source from my latitude.
By http://na.fs.fed.us/
Western hemlock is rated to be very tolerant of shade. Only Pacific yew and Pacific silver fir are
considered to have equal or greater tolerance of shade than
western hemlock.

maple flats

I'm glad my hemlock grows faster than that. Mine is adding between 1/4-3/8" diam / year on most of what I cut. I have thinned it and most gets more like 30-40% sun. This is what I got all of my lumber for my sugarhouse from, 2x's and inch boards. I  also sold some about 1978 to a relative to build a log home, he paid me but never did build and the logs ended up rotting in a pile. What a waste. About 12 years ago I cut all that were 20" dbh from the lot (before I knew high grading was not good) and since I have removed a lot more as needed in excess of 20" dbh. Now I also remove some smaller to give better light to what stays but not too much light or new branches form from buds in the bark. Makes it harder to get clear or nearly clear lumber. The lumber still has good strength which is what I want.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: maple flats on January 01, 2006, 08:03:24 PM
I'm glad my hemlock grows faster than that. Mine is adding between 1/4-3/8" diam / year on most of what I cut.

Have you counted the rings closer to the pith to see how many rings to the inch? Sounds like your looking at the last few years of the tree's life when it has attained dominance in the stand. A 20" hemlock in this kneck of the woods would be 10 feet above the hardwood tree canopy and would put on similar annual increments. When a tree is being suppressed with it's leader getting whipped, rubbed off and in shade that's another scenario. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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