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Went to the Game of Logging training

Started by oakiemac, December 03, 2005, 08:56:18 AM

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oakiemac

Just got back from the GOL training in Detroit. The location had to be one of the strangest places to hold a logging training class. I felt like a fish out of water in that area. I hate big cities and Detroit is at the top of my list but that is a whole other story. We did have plenty of dead Ash to cut in a park.

The class was great. Taught by Ken Lamott who really knows his stuff. I learned a lot in the first two days. We have 2 more to go next month. If anybody gets the chance to go to one of these I would recommend it. Especially if you have never been trained and just go out in the woods and cut. That is the way I used to do it but with the high danger level I thought some officail training was in order. This Gol is a good way to get that training.
Many thanks to Jessica Simmonds for setting up the class and the US Forest service for picking up most of the tab! 8) 8)
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Kevin

It's amazing to discover what you don't know when you take the time and make the effort to get a little instruction.
I thought I knew everything about chain saws, after all I owned one for several years ... two minutes into the course I realized I knew very little.

nyforester

The Game of Logging is required by several mills here in NY State if you want to sell them any wood. It is very informative and could even save your life. I have taken 4 of the classes myself. I have a logger working for me that is 68 years old. He has been in the woods since he was 7. He was negative about going to the classes at first, but really enjoys it now. He says even old dogs can learn new tricks !!
[img width=350 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/albums/y166/nyforester/game2.jpg[/img]
[img width=350 --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/albums/y166/nyforester/game3.jpg[/img]

bitternut

Okiemac it sounds like you guys were cutting dead trees. When I hosted the classes they wanted live wood. The guy that set it up said that cutting dead wood was a different animal. I wonder what the difference in the instructions would be. Glad to hear that you enjoyed yourself in spite of being in Detroit. The classes must have been really good to offset the location.

Nyforester is that Bill Lindloff in the pictures. He was the instructor we had and I think he lives down your way. If it is you sure had a good instructor. He made things look so easy.

I noticed the hollow butt in that dropped tree in the background of the second picture. We learned how to safely drop them in our class and that is one of the types of trees that I always stayed away from. I no longer have any reservations about dropping one of my hollow beech trees. The forester that marked my woods for TSI put an X on all the dangerous trees ( hollow butts ) as a warning to anyone who might try to fell one. Piece of cake now.


nyforester

Hi Bitternut
Yes that is Bill L. He is a very good teacher and takes it very serious.


Kevin

How does he instruct on cutting a spring pole?

bitternut

Kevin they teach you to imagine the vertex of a vertical line and a horizontal tangent to the spring pole. Then you imagine a line from that vertex down 45 degrees to the spring pole. You then shave the underside of the spring pole with your saw until the spring pole collapses. You can then finish cutting with the saw in a normal fashion to sever the remaining wood. If you did it right both cut ends of the spring pole will remain real close together. If you were off one way or the other it will move in the direction of your error. Its pretty neat the way they just kind of collapse once you thin out the underside. By using the edge of the chain the wood will not get a chance to pinch the bar. Works with any size pole. Thick ones just take a little longer.

OneWithWood

How do you safely fell a hollow tree.  That was not covered in the classes I took. (or mebbee I was yackin', but usually there is a demo)
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

oakiemac

Bitternut, we did cut some live trees but most were dead but still solid. The instructor said that if they were too powdery then the plan will change.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Kevin

This is how I was instructed to remove tension from a spring pole, several small cuts on the tension side being sure to stand on the side away from the tension.


bitternut

Kevin I will have to give that method a try to see if it works better than shaving the bottom side. I have my doubts that it will but we will see.

OneWithWood you can safely fell hollow trees by cutting them real low where the root swell is. You figure your hinge width at 80% of DBH and  the hinge thickness at 10% of DBH. Since the root swell or butt swell is larger than your DBH you have quite a bit more wood to get a hinge and you do not have to go as deep into the tree to make your notch. Since you are coming down with your angle cut first and your second notch cut is horizontal you can get the notch real close to the ground where there is more solid wood. Then you do a bore cut to establish your notch thickness. If the hinge thickness is OK you can then widen the bore cut enough for wedges if needed. Check things to make sure everything is good to go and cut the holding wood. Move away at least 15' at a 45 deg angle and watch your tree fall to the ground. Those hinge numbers are minimums and can vary with species of wood.

Several of the trees we cut were hollow beeches and leaners also. When you do your bore cut you can tell right away what kind of wood is in the stump. If your chips are black or punky you know that the tree is hollow or rotten in the middle. I went out and cut a couple more of the hollow beeches with X's on them the following week just to practice and I was able to drop them easily and real close to my target.

I don't think I gave any misinformation but if I did maybe okiemac or nyforester can correct me or add something that I may have left out.

Kevin

Are they boring every tree that is being felled?

Frank_Pender

I would really like to know the style of face that was taught.  Out here, OSHA requires the Humbolt face design as opposed the the Dutchman.
Frank Pender

bitternut

Yes I am pretty sure every tree was bore cut. Here is a picture of our bore cut test. We had to do a bore cut on this block and stay between lines that the instructor put on the block. Also we were not to touch the slab that he held about an inch away from the back side. This was kind of tough to get everything right on.







chet

I have never heard anyone mention weather or not they taught anything in regards to notch placement. By this I mean in relation to rotten or punky wood, splits, seams, twist, hollows, trunk shape, or multiple stems. Just curious as I have never taken the course.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

bitternut

Here is an example of the notch we were taught Frank. As far as notch placement we tried to get them as low as possible so stumps would be left low. Our class did not get into multiple stems, splits, etc. Level 3 was as far we covered and those were trees felled away from their natural lean, back lean and side lean. Quite a few were also hollow. We did not run into any that did not have enough wood for a hinge. I guess you would not mess with a tree that was so rotten or hollow that you could not get a proper hinge.



Oregon Engineer

The game of Logging is a part of the continuing education for most employees in some type of administration job (not directly manufacturing) so they all get to understand what our customers are doing EVERY DAY. It's a yearly event with about 25 different people every year. The VP of Marketing was in my class.

For most of the employees its the first time they've taken down a tree. In the patch of woods where we train, the trees are typically Douglas Firs that are 25" in diameter and about 150' tall. For a first timer I tell his/her (yes the ladies do the training also) buddies to get a picture of their face just as the tree starts to fall and they turn to RUN. Preciously funny looks of terror are usually on their face!!!!! Pictures that are worth saving for just the right time!

Awesome training!!!


oakiemac

We had several ladies in our class including Jessica who ocassionally post here on the Forum. Jessica knows her chain saws and I suspect that she can fell a tree or two!

I have only taken the first 2 levels and we haven't cut any hollow trees or spring poles yet. That stuff might be coming up next. I am going to practice in the next few weeks with some of my own trees then I should have some more questions for the instructor when we meet again in January.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Max sawdust

Thanks for the great pics.
I have been wanting to attend the class my self.  Our county fair last summer had a logging compition, in order to compete you had to attend the game of logging course.  That was a smart way to get people to take the course.
Max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

D Martin

Does anyone know how to find out the next class in ones area? I have e mailed gol but heard no reply and would like to take a class or two. Do you need to take all the classes from the begining class or can you take just the ones you want?

bitternut

I am pretty sure that you have to take them in sequence but not sure. Since it appears you are in New Hampshire try this link. It will be well worth it to take the courses. There is nothing like getting the instructions from one of the masters that teach the courses and then putting the saw in your hands under their watchful eye.


http://www.loggertraining.com/

Kevin

Frank;
I think for felling most are teaching the open face notch, not the best for saving wood.
It's probably more to do with safety than conservation.

Boring is a useful technique but not one that I would use on every tree.

The best time to see what's inside the tree is when the face notch has been removed.
A hollow tree can still have  hinge wood but you will want to see if it's balanced or equal wood on both sides.


Dale Hatfield

  I happy that you were able to attend Kens training. He is a fun guy to work with.
GOL  training is based
On an open face notch 70 to 90 degrees.  In the outside third of the tree Back cut level to point of notch.
With a  even  hinge thickness . Based on D B H  for length.
Hinge is created with a bore cut. Unless tree is too small to bore.
Spring pole is removed by shaving  inside of  arch.  Caution  on other methods of removal, Spring poles have maimed and killed many .  a wrong cut from the outside of the pole will cause it to explode.
As far as  a saving wood  I have never lost a dime on a log by using an open face notch, saw log or peeler/slicer.
This method allows me to drive over stumps , and not  fear rolling over. I sell all I bought and not on the stump.
Game Of Logging trainer,  College instructor of logging/Tree Care
Chainsaw Carver

oakiemac

Kevin, when wouldn't you use the bore cut? I asked our instructor this and he said that he has 80 differnt methods of cutting trees but he didn't really answer my question. I guess that they teach the bore cut as the main stay then maybe in the advanced classes they teach the other types.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Ed_K

 D Martin, if the email don't work, Try a call to David Birdsall, @ (877)951-1223
Or pm me and I'll get John Addler's #.
GOL, Its the best way to stay alive and learn to work more productively.
Ed K

Kevin

If the tree is in favour of the lay there's no need to bore it unless the tree is leaning hard.
Boring is used to reduce stress in a leaning tree.
I suspect GOL is using it  for safety which is good but it's not the only safe way to fall a tree.
When I start a back cut it allows me to set the wedges and watch the tree advance to the lay.
If the tree doesn't advance it allows time to make corrections.
If you set your wedges in a bore then cut the back strap, the tree sets back on your wedges you may have problems lifting the tree and all you have left is the hinge holding a set back tree.
By boring every tree your nose sprocket will quickly wear out also.
I'm not knocking the GOL on their course but there's more than one way to skin a cat, it's my intention to give people the information and let them decide what's safe and which works best for them as individuals.
I seldom bore trees but it's good to have it when required.
Some instuctors don't get into specifics so don't be afraid to ask questions when taking the course.
I had one instructor that wasn't going to show the class how to cut a spring pole until asked and another instructor from another class that didn't know what gunning sticks were.
Keep an open mind and use the information to your advantage.

jon12345

When I first started college, we had to complete GOL level 1 training before we got to fell a tree.  John Adler came and spent a couple days in the woods with us also, which was very informative.  He taught us about square ground chains and showed us many other things including tips on limbing and also a neat trick for getting trees down that are hung on a stump.

If givin the chance to take more GOL training I definitely would and would recommend it to others.  Another thing about GOL I know is that everything you learn isnt necassarily from the instructor, people are also encouraged to put in their .02 and the instructor will give his thoughts on it, explaining why your idea is or isn't a good idea.
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

Larry

A lot of mis-conceptions about GOL, boring, and the open face notch.

Open face notch wastes wood – On the contrary.  May seem that way while going through the training as they teach a standard rule of thumb, hinge width, and thickness.  The training does go on to say the width and thickness can be adjusted to suit local conditions and trees.  A high stump for me is anything more than 2" off the ground.  The hardwood butt log gets a trim to get rid of the flair anyhow so nothing is lost to the open notch.

Boring causes the nose sprocket to quickly wear out – Normally one of the first questions asked by the pro's.  I'm not a pro but I have bored every tree I have cut since taking the training in 1999...haven't noticed any excessive wear on the nose sprocket.  Still see some of the loggers in that class and they haven't complained either. 

It just as easy to set wedges while boring as any other way.  You just swing the bore around so it opens up the back of the tree.  Leave your holding wood sorta on one side and the back.  And yes on a back leaner you may not be able to lift the tree or you will wear yourself out banging on wedges.  That was my biggest problem...experience cures the problem most quick.

I feel the biggest advantage to bore cutting is I'm in complete 100% control at all times if I put my hinge in right.  On a big tree where my bar won't reach through I'll bore in on the heavy side half way, cut to the back of the tree, and move to the light side to bore that half of the tree and cut to my back strap.  Might take 3 or 4 minutes...lot can happen in that time.  Pull the saw out and take a leisurely look around to make sure nobody has moved into the felling path of my tree.  Check my escape route to make sure its clear and maybe catch my breath.  Cut my back strap in 5 seconds and I'm outa there before the tree even starts to move.

We were also taught a special technique called the tongue and groove to cut the top off.  I've really pushed the envelope with this cut.  I'm cutting a good 60% of the tops off by boring and using a modified tongue and groove.  It has advantages for the lazy logger who hates a pushing bar. ;D

One thing to recognize...GOL is meant for logger's to do production felling in a safe way.  The training was never intended for the arborist that is trying to fell the problem or danger tree.  Even though both cut trees there is a huge difference in there methods and training.  Think this may answer Chet's question...no emphasis or training for felling the problem tree. 



Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Kevin

OSHA Quote ...
QuoteQuality control concerns with several companies dictate that only Humboldt undercuts are permissible with sawlog grade timber, so that wood loss is minimized by taking the notch wood out of the stump. Quality control often dictates that there must be a flush surface on the end of the log.

QuoteA lot of mis-conceptions

Larry, I don't think it's  mis-conceptions  ;D

tmullen

I am very interested in this training as I teach NWCG S-212 Wildfire Powersaws for firefighters. Is this training offered on the west coast? Is this training OSHA approved? ???
Has anyone here done the Douglas Dent Training ie. S-212? It's OK but needs updating again.

I have found that there are many ways to safely fall timber, it's up  to the faller to find the method that works best for them and safely acomplishes the goal. I like to work with other fallers to find tricks that have worked for them and keep the good one and chuck the bad ones. As my POP used to tell me, you can be young and fast at falling but you will not make it to be and old feller if you follow that path.

Learn all that you can, keep the good and chuck the bad.

As we say in the fire world
BE SAFE
when in doubt
fire out

Dale Hatfield

Yes the  212  and the game of logging are much the same with the exception , of the humbolt  But when in Rome.
Ken group In Wis.  has trained  for the 212 class.  Its a little different  more trees are cut, but the basics are still the same.

The humbolt and the open face was and will always be a great debate from coast to coast

The use of a bore cut .
By creating a bore cut, you establish a hinge of the correct thickness. To  fell the tree without fiber pull.
Fiber pull can create a hazard to the cutter.   The fiber pull also  can degrade the log .  can cause front of tree to split out/ a degrade by a hole in the log/ and split the log.
By just making a notch and a back . Its a race to the finish on forward leaning tree. It starts to fall before a  good hinge can be made. Results are barber chairs /fiber pull and split logs. The other thing is you have to stay at the base of the tree longer.  to keep cutting to make a hinge as the tree is tearing away.
  With the bore cut I regain control of when the tree starts to fall. which allows me to escape from the  stump area where the most  struck by accidents happen.


  Game Of Logging trainer
Dale Hatfield
Game Of Logging trainer,  College instructor of logging/Tree Care
Chainsaw Carver

tmullen

Dale

Thanks for the info. Is there a class some where out on this side of the north american dirt pile or is this class some thing more for east side logging. if so could I get some contact info as I may be able to get the government to pick up the tab for this class for my job. ;D ;D

Thanx
when in doubt
fire out

bitternut

Seems strange that osha would require humbolt notches on the left coast and require logger training that stressed open face notches on the right coast. All of the guys that took the level 3 class were loggers and were taking the class as an osha requirement. Oh yeah, now I know why.......they are a government agency.

Dale......since you are an instructor do you have any idea where I could get one of those sighting gauges for determining tree height and wedge height for back leaning trees? I have googled it to death and have come up empty so far.


Kevin

http://www.forestapps.com/cross_sight.html

Osha doesn't require the humboldt but rather stipulate what the demand might be within the industry.

Phorester


Ah yes, KEVIN, Tim Ard of Forest Applications.  I took two saw classes from him.  Very nice fellow and also his wife who came along with him for one of the courses. What an eye opener that first course was many years ago.  I'm using saws for forest fire work, not production cutting, so he geared both classes to our needs.  I also took the USFS S-212 class a few years after Tim's classes..

There was a local pulpwood cutter in the second class I took who was also the main sawyer on our fire crew.  He had been cutting trees for many years and of course had his own opinions.  He'd challenge Tim's "radical" ideas  and Tim would respond in a very respectful manner, shooting down the pulpwood guy's ideas every time.  After the course, the pulpwood cutter said, "that guy really knows his stuff.  I can use a lot of this training on my job".   Tim and his class had won over this sawyer who already had many years of daily chainsaw experience.

As many here have already said, if you use a chainsaw more than the casual weekend warrior-type homeowner, you need to take one of these courses.

Dale Hatfield

Quote from: bitternut on December 04, 2005, 07:54:51 PM

Dale......since you are an instructor do you have any idea where I could get one of those sighting gauges for determining tree height and wedge height for back leaning trees? I have googled it to death and have come up empty so far.


Here is the link to the GOL website.
The Pro Site is what you are looking for.
Bill Lindloff  would be your  local trainer. He should have them for sale . or call the main office at  1-800-252-2502
http://www.gameofloggingusa.com/Default.htm
Game Of Logging trainer,  College instructor of logging/Tree Care
Chainsaw Carver

Dale Hatfield

Quote from: tmullen on December 04, 2005, 05:42:34 PM
Dale

Thanks for the info. Is there a class some where out on this side of the north american dirt pile or is this class some thing more for east side logging. if so could I get some contact info as I may be able to get the government to pick up the tab for this class for my job. ;D ;D

Thanx

I'm afraid that  most of the training is done on this side of the big muddy. I know Soren  and Tim did some trainings out that way in the 90's. But i don't know what company's, Usually they trained at large paper and pulp mills. All the trainers were hand picked by Soren.
OSHA  approved,  yes the class follows the OSHA guidelines as we trained the OSHA  inspectors, then they re wrote the book.

Something to look for  Husky  just released a new glossy training book.  Pics and not drawings of the processes.   It will be a great aid  .

Dale
Game Of Logging trainer,  College instructor of logging/Tree Care
Chainsaw Carver

bitternut

Hey thanks for the link Dale. Turns out the office is only about 35 miles from my house. Called them and ordered the sighting gauge. Its on its way already. I will have to check out the new book you mentioned from Husky. Everything I have now is what I was able to commit to memory and I am not going to assume that will last forever. Sometimes I go to the basement and then wonder what the heck I went down there for.

Larry

Quote from: Dale Hatfield on December 05, 2005, 08:11:49 AM
OSHA  approved,  yes the class follows the OSHA guidelines as we trained the OSHA  inspectors, then they re wrote the book.

I had the extreme privilege of being trained by Soren.  As you know he is quite the story teller.  Soft spoken and the guys hang on every word when he tells a story.

One story he told about course development was how to start the chainsaw.  The forest industry said that's easy "just drop start it".  OSHA screamed "no way" that's one handed operation...you have to put the saw on the ground, foot through the handle, and start it that way.  So a compromise was reached where we can either start it on the ground or with the handle between the legs.

Soren I believe taught an advanced course for a while before quitting.  Is that still available and what is taught?
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

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