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Blown Gasket - They messed with the wrong Sawyer

Started by Kirk_Allen, November 30, 2005, 12:36:17 PM

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Kirk_Allen

Some of you may know that we have been dealing with a local roofer who is putting on a new metal roof on our barn.  We have started week #5 on what was supposed to be a 4 day job.  Minor issue, we understand wind, rain, AND LAZINESS.

Through out the job there have been many disturbing events that will take WAY TO LONG to describe but lets just say once this job is done they will NEVER be permitted back on my property.

So, what blew the gasket on this 5 week fiasco? 

Last night they pull up and want to get final payment on the job.  I first inform them that the job is not done.  Acting perplexed he gets out of his truck and looks at all the stuff not done.  ACTING all mad at his helpers in the truck for not finishing it he goes back to writing on his notepad.  I asked him if he has his reciept for the additional materials he said he bought at our local lumber yard.  Again, he was perplexed and played dumb to knowing anything about the requested reciepts.

"Tony, I told you last week that we have to have the reciepts for the stuff you bought.  No reciepts no payment."

He gets all upset and says he will be right back.  He said he is going to the lumber yard to have them print up the reciept since he left his copy at the house. 

He comes back and hands me a ticket for just shy of $500.00 for stuff he bought to finish the barn. 

LOTS OF RED FLAGS went up.  He had 14 sheets of metal on the ticket.  He claimed that is what it took to finsih the Coupalo on the barn.  Sorry Tony, no way it took 14 sheets to do that little coupalo.  Then he back peddles and said: "Oh, thats right, some of it went for the north extension on the roof".

I SMELLED A RAT.  I told him I would pass on the paper work to my Dad and if all was in order payment would be mailed AFTER he finishes what needs finished on the barn.

Getting to the Blown Gasket:

I looked over the ticket he gave me from the lumber yard and said, "Lord, I smell a rat but cant put my hands on it, HELP".

In an instant it hit me in the face like a ton of bricks.  "TICKET" was the key!  He had handed me a "Delivery TICKET", which is what our lumber yard prints up for a quote.  IT WAS NOT AN INVOICE.  The date was for THAT DAY and the time was for when he went into the store to supposedly get a reciept for materials.

I didnt get ANY sleep last night I was so mad.  I knew he was trying to pull a fast one and had to wait until morning to prove it.

Woke up and went to town and met the owner of the lumber yard at 7am. After lenghty review of COD sales (turns out the contractors credit is shot) we identified that the contractor had NOT BOUGHT ANY material from them in the last 5 weeks.  What he had done is gone and had the lumber yard generate a quote for him and then tried to pass it off to me as if he actually bought the material. 

WRONG THING TO DO! 

One thing I hate is CROOKS, lying while smiling CROOKS. I hate even more having this CROOK on my property!  They have about 100 screws left to put in the roof and once that is done we are going to have a Come To Jesus meating.    Frank, can I barrow you axe for about an hour?

I am so glad I got input from CK prior to this job.  As he encouraged us to do, we bought ALL the material for the job as we did not want to get scammed by having them buy more than what they need and keeping the left over. Well, I suspect this guy has played this game on several folks.

NOT GOING TO WORK ON ME!  Once payment is made and he is ESCORTED off my property I am having a meeting with the local police chief.  I dont think he will take to kindly of this guy committing consumer fraud in his community.  I wish he would have mailed that paperwork to me because then it would be a federal issue for mail fraud. 

I am still steaming mad but hope to calm down long enough to get them out of here. 

Modat22

Take pictures of the crook extraction, I always look for good pointers.

Actually take a video
remember man that thy are dust.

Murf

Kirk, I get a good number of 'clean up' jobs from guys like you describe, but in a different field of work, mind you, the guy starts than drags it out till the owner finally gives them the ole' heave ho from the job site.

I have come to realize the root of the problem after all these years of scratching my noodle and cogitating over it. After all, why would any sane contractor walk away, or ignore, a job with money outstanding, it doesn't make sense.  ::)

Then I saw it first hand when I bought a small business (just for the equipment) from the bank after foreclosure. I kept one or two of the employees who gave the straight poop on what happened.

A small business owner is dearly tempted to say "yes" every time the phone rings, for fear it mght not ring again tomorrow.

Now they have too much work to handle, but they don't want to lose an already landed job, so they start the job, but then get called back off that job, to deal with a 5 week old job they left previously.  :D

After a short while they end up just running around in circles between jobs, not doing anything more productive than burning gas.

At that point they have a realllllly big problem, they have money out for material, they have money out for helpers' wages, and they have zero operating capital, but can't get paid till they finish the jobs.

Dat's when the fertilizer usually meets the rotary air movement device.......  ;)

Don't feel too bad, I doubt you're the only fella in town waiting for some stupid little bit of work to be finished on your roof.

If you have a mailing address, send him a short (less than sweet) note telling him if the job is not completed by XXX date (usually 5 working days) you will hire someone to do the unfinished work and take it out of his bill. That usually has a motivating effect.  ;)
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

SwampDonkey

DOH!!! He just condemned about 95 % of building contractors up here.  :o

I don't know of a single contractor that has done work for us, where we haven't been took. I could fill the whole first page of this thread.  >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jeff

Yep, Extraction video would be cool, want us to send over the Gorilla suit? Remember the old samsonite luggage commercial?  You could put him in a suitcase.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Modat22

When I get news of a contractor that does this, I make sure everyone in the engineering field that I know knows about them.

We generally don't allow those folks to bid our jobs.
remember man that thy are dust.

UNCLEBUCK

A come to jesus meeting with a crook like that might go in one ear and out the other . He might be a full blown christian in his hometown somewhere . Let the law work and hold payment until every screw is accounted for . Crooks make a fun project end up sour and thats why I never hire anyone because if I was dealing with a clown like that I would blow a gasket . Make sure he dont get hurt on the property until he is done . Oh boy that man sounds like a accident waiting to happen . I dont think I would even let him finish the job or go near the place. Thats too bad their are people like that. Just think what they do to little old ladies who hire him . It will be a nice building with many years of enjoyment once this clown has vanished .
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Kirk_Allen

UB you are so right.  If it wasnt for the fact I dont have a ladder long enough to reacy the hay lift section of the barn I would tell them they are done. Its 45 feet to the edge. 

You hit the nail on the head about the little old ladies he may rip of after me.  It fries me to think people do this and all with a smile.  I am getting mad just thinking about it. 

crtreedude

You know, my wife and I were just talking about this last night. How do some people live with them selves? The only thing I can figure is they are so wrapped up in what they want, or their problems (and don't we all have enough of those!) they they figure that whatever they get from someone else is justified.

I think the scum who were running Enron come to mind. Destroying people's retirement while they were cashing out millions - what kind of person does that?

Perhaps I really don't want to know.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

etat

I HATE them that gives us a bad name.  GET EM KIRK!!!!!.  I just ran a estimate for a elderly couple in Ripley a few days ago.  Real small house needing a shingle roof.  Estimated it and gave em a quote of twenty two hundred dollars materials and labor.  Basically 22 square priced at a hundred bucks a square.  Real simple straight run roof, 'might' be a couple of bad boards we'll find when we tear off the old roof but nothing to write home about.  Usually if it's just a couple of boards I throw em in with the roof.  When I gave em my estimate they had the mostest shocked look on their face. I didn't know  what the sheet that was all about, and then the ole guy said I wanna show you something.   He brought and showed me a estimate from another roofer, a itemized estimate.   They was gonna charge him for TWENTY EIGHT squares of shingles, TWICE the amount of tar paper needed, TWICE the amount for nails needed, ENOUGH PLYWOOD TO REDECK THE WHOLE HOUSE, and I know *DanG well it 'might' have had a few bad boards, not NEAR enough to justify new decking.  They wanted money for a BUNCH of other stuff that wasn't even needed for a roof, and I GUARANTEE you there wasn't no way they was gonna use all that materials.  THEIR ESTIMATE WAS FOR FORTY EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS...........for a twenty two hundred dollar job.  That ole man, I SWEAR, told me he used to be a off bearer for a sawmill and though he was old he looked to be in pretty dang good shape.  Tole me if that crooked bunch come back up in his yard he was a gonna knock em in the head and leave em laying.  Good enough for em I say!!!!!!!!!!


My prices always includes materials and labor.  If they want it broke down I'll break it down for them.  In ten years I have NEVER charged more than my quote.  If I make a mistake I eat it.  (I usually don't  :) ).......But I ALWAYS give a estimate for a fair price, always charge my materials to ME at the lumber yard, and ALWAYS pay my bill.  My shingle bill for last month was just a tad over  nine thousand dollars and the day i got it is the day I paid it. 

I might not ever get rich in money but to me, that's the only way to do business. 

As I said..........GET EM KIRK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


OH, and them ENRON guys..........That's another story.  A few years back  a gas company bought a right of way across my property to run a underground gas line.  Offered me a couple a thousand dollars.  i told them what they could do and run them off.  A few days later a couple of more guys showed up and asked me what I wanted for the right of way.  Off the top of my head, since it was only gonna run through a cow pasture not really fit for building a house on and was gonna be underground anyway and was only gonna cross a couple of acres I came up with a price.  I told em fifteen thousand dollars figuring we'd do some more negotions.  Two weeks later i SWEAR they came by here with a check, which I GLADLY took from them.  They told me some of the landowners were fighting with them and they didn't want me in court against them with the others.  A LOT of the other landowners never took their money and ad I said, it got all tied up in court.  Well right after that Enron went bust, and the Gas Company that wanted to run the gas line went bust without ever even getting all of the right of way.  Come to find out it was a ENRON owned company.  It never made any sense to me why they wanted to run that gas line across this way anyway.  NOT ONE BIT.  I guess it doesn't matter now.  I am glad I got their money before they  went busted though cause  it made a NICE down payment on my truck!   ;D
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

karl

Ck;
I knew I liked you for a reason;
I agree with your way of doing business, I always quote a straightforward job -calling it as I see it, if I miss something, I figure it was my fault as a professional, and I "eat it". Lesson learned, hopefully.

It really gets my donkey when I get a call to pick up the pieces behind some scam contractor- usually the customer has lost all faith in ALL builders and has no funds left to fix the ****ups. At that point you gots to walk on water to regain their trust. That is the point where I try to decide where the problems really lie- with the contractor as a builder, as a communicator, inexperience, or is it the customer. Usually a quick look at the job and a few questions that are hard to dodge of the customer let me know whether to stay or run. Ninety plus percent of the time I am ashamed to say- it was the builder not taking the needed steps to make the customer comfortable.

Kirk:
Nail the SOB to the wall.
If everyone watched their back like you are there wouldn't be so many fly-by-night contractors around.
And on the other side of the coin- we shouldn't HAVE to watch our backs when we agree to mutually beneficial agreements.  A persons word should be as good as any written contract.

I will now step down off my soapbox......
"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

Mike_Barcaskey

I'll second that, great post6 cktate

I haven't advertised in two years, all my business is repeats or referrels, I must be doing something right

on the other hand, I find myself never turning down work and always witrh too much to do. that's a bad trap to fall in
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Paul_H

I think we've probably all dealt with crooked people over the years and yes it is irritating but if it is truly a matter of principle,you would pack his tools and carefully place them just outside your property line and finish the job yourself.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Kirk_Allen

Paul if I had a 45 foot ladder I would have already done that.  I have no way of reaching that part of the roof without being a monkey on a rope.  Im not sure how they are going to do it either as they did drop of a ladder while I was gone and I tried to use but it wont reach where I need to go.  I sure wish it had because it would be fixed by now and the ladder would be in the road. 

Paul_H

Go buy a 45" ladder and deduct it from the final tally.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Kirk_Allen

If they arent here in the morning to finish this I am going to do just that.  I have a trailer I can haul it with now so why not.  Wouldnt be much they could say.  It would be a bad day for them if he wants to make a stink about it. 

Shotgun

Quote from: Kirk Allen on November 30, 2005, 08:20:10 PM
Paul if I had a 45 foot ladder I would have already done that.  I have no way of reaching that part of the roof without being a monkey on a rope.   

Hey Kirk,

Seems as though part of the problem is already solved.   ;D

Norm


Joined The Forestry Forum 5 days before 9/11.

wiam

Hey Kirk,  rent a lift and deduct that from the bill. :D :D

Will

beenthere

Spanky
I mean Kirk.......

Do you have a picture of the part of the barn not finished?  Is it 45' to the edge of the roof? and then the metal needs to go above that, so you'd have to get onto the roof from the ladder (at 45')?  Just trying to picture in my mind the task to be done to finish the job.
In my youth, I put a 40' extension ladder in a tractor manure bucket and raised it 10' to get the ladder up under the eaves at 50' to spray paint a barn side. The ladder didn't fare too well when it and I came down along the side of the barn  ;D  Not recommending that method of reaching the last 5'.  :) ;)

The lift is one thing I had in mind too, but they reach up, but not 'out' very far, at least the ones I am familiar with.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Bro. Noble

We repaired and painted our barn roofs a few years back.  I bought a long nylon rope and threw it over the barn.  Tied a ladder to the rope and used it wherever I wanted to go on the barn.  One of our barns has a projection for a loose hay lift.  That was a little scary,  but we got it done without having to have a ladder from the ground.  Had about a dozen people driving by that stopped and asked if we would do theirs as soon as we finished that one :D :D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

SwampDonkey

Some of these old barns around here are all of that (height) and way to steep to climb up. Even more difficult if they are steel, most are steel or aluminum roofed. Won't get me up there.  smiley_sweat_drop  smiley_dizzy  smiley_sick
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tony

      Kirk, I don't remember doing all that to you but, there are alot of
things that I,ve done in the past I can't recall  :). I'll try to make it up somehow
though.


                                    TONY[/b]
TK1600, John Deere 4600 W\frontendloader, Woodmaster718 planer\moulder, Stihl MS461 Stihl 036 & 021 & Echo CS-370
"You cannot invade the mainland United States.  There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."  Adm. Isoroku Yamamotto ( Japanese

Vermonter

Kirk;
I am embarrassed to say I had the same problem here.
Barn roof really high, needed some roofing.
This guy stops by, bids it at $100 square labor, no material.
My wife thought it would be a good idea, so did I.
Four weeks later, with day after day of sunny weather, it rains.  They show up, and want money.  
I got ugly, and to make a long story short, I got my roof finished.  Luckily, I had a morning off just before they capped it.  I needed to add another course on both sides of the peak, and get the caps started right.  They finished, I paid them.  I held up my side of the bargain.
At the end of the job, they wanted to buy some gas.  It turned out they had already stole the 10 gallons I had.  They blamed it on the guy that had to go back to jail.  I gave them a short chunk of chain to tow the second truck away.   They were very clear that if they showed up to return the chain, they would regret it.  I picked up about a case of beer cans thrown off the back of the barn.  Even I don't drink on that roof.  I'm really lucky they didn't fall off.
The only thing on the barn that wasn't done by myself or with help from friends.  At least it's dry in there tonight.
New homestead

etat

I've got three forty foot ladders, a thirty two foot ladder, and about seven or eight or nine shorter ladders but danged if i've ever seen a ladder over forty foot long.   Even with my laddervator i can bolt sections to it up to forty foot tall and then brace it off for sending up shingles.  A couple of times we 'have' backed a pick up or a truck up and stood the ladder up in the bed of it against the cab to get a little higher.  I will say this, when we stand up tall ladders like that we always anchor them down so they won't move.

I have NO problem with heights, not none at all.  ANd....i've swinged from a rope a few times, really don't' like to do it these days but ain't really scared to.  THAT SAID......sometimes, not often, we have used two by six brackets with a ladder on top of them, (this would be on top of the roof) if we just had to get up there and make repairs or something).  either way, i want my ladder secured and even then preferable with somebody standing on the bottom of it if I'm up high.

I'm NOT afraid of heights, doesn't bother me at all but Ladders scare me to death. 
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

crtreedude

cktate - I am with you, I HATE ladders. I have ridden them down before (standing on it an the bottom slides out...) and did not enjoy the experience. :o

When I have to go up on top, I use a harness and my climbing gear. 

But, I do have a little fear of heights - just enough to be nervous. My wife has NONE - zero.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

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