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who has been in the military - any branch?

Started by lawyer_sawyer, November 20, 2005, 04:19:35 AM

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lawyer_sawyer

I am pursuing a potential opportunity with the JAG corps after law school.  for those of you who don't know that is the Judge Advocate General corps and they are the attorneys who are officers in the armed forces and depending on how long you have been in can practice many types of law.  This is an opportunity for me to actually serve my country and a wonderful opportunity to get some truly great hands on experience.

This is leading me to my question.

could someone please give me their experieces on what if any branches are family friendly.  Though it might be great experience for me I still would like to have a semblance of family life as my son will just be turning 2 when I could go in IF I am accepted.

any help on this would be great
Love the outdoors, chainsaws, my 300 win mag, my wife and my son but not exactly in that order.

JimBuis

I spent 9 1/2 years in the Air Force uniform, 1974-1980 and 1981-1985.  After that I switched to civil service and worked for the Air Force in Human Resources for 16 years.  The military life is hard on families, but I survived it and have good things to show for it.  We raised two kids in and through the Air Force.

In my opinion, the Air Force would offer the best environment for a family with the Army a close second with the Marines next.  I would put the Navy last not because they are not outstanding, but just because of the incredible stress that often comes to the families of those military members who are out at sea for many months at a time.

Let me know if you have any specific questions I can help with.  Email me at:  jbuis@caj.or.jp

Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

bee_pipes

I spent 10 years in the Marines. While all branches of the service prize their personnel and families, some branches are more mission oriented. No slight intended, just a matter of philosophy. The Navy (and Marines) can put great hardship on families through deployments. For them the mission is non-negotiable and accomplished at all costs. The Navy is built up of self-contained units - even the land bases are organized like ship crews. This is most striking in land based medical facilities, though it is considered shore duty. Likewise, Marine units are organized to be deployed for indefinite periods. An illustration of this point would be the recent conflicts in the middle east. Army special service units are inserted to accomplish a mission and then retrieved. Marine units are deployed to hold an area with minimum support and resources.
By contrast the Army (and Air Force) have an approach that is more human resource oriented. For them the mission will be accomplished by taking care of the people and letting them do what they have been trained for. It doesn't mean they are less effective, just that they have a different approach to accomplishing the mission. Mind you, this is an outsider's view of the other organizations. My last duty station was in garrison working with civilians (civil service). The ex-army types were always amused by the designation of officer and enlisted heads.
As a lawyer you would be immediately commissioned as an O-3 in the Marines. I'm pretty sure the Navy works the same. I don't know what the deployment potential is for legal organizations. The JAG is usually in the rear lines, in garrison. I have met a lot of people that have grown up as Army brats. Some of them regret not having grown up in one place. As someone that did grow up in one place, I envy the world experience they had growing up and set off from my home town as soon as I was old enough. Best of luck with your endeavors.

Regards,
Pat
I am not getting fat! I am developing a powerful set of muscles that allow me to sit for long periods of time without tiring...

Riles

I spent twenty years deploying all over the world for the Air Force, and the biggest difference in time away from home is not the amount but the frequency. I easily spent as much time away from family as the Navy folks, I just didn't do it 6 months at a time. Most recently, we pulled 2 month rotations, home for a month or two, and then another 2 months. During your time at home, you might get dinged for short term stateside exercises. The Navy has a lot of their training contained on the ship. Surprisingly, we don't get very good training in a combat zone, so we have to get back to the places we can get the training we need to stay current. And it's just too expensive for the Army to move huge numbers of people with that frequency.

That said, it's up to you to pick the model that fits your lifestyle. Long deployments followed by long stays at home, or frequent deployments and frequent stops at the homestead.

This is sort of the worst case. Your situation as a JAG would be different; operators deploy a lot more often than JAGs. I have several JAG friends, one of whom is raising two kids without a husband (lots of help from parents) and she's making it work successfully.

Good Luck.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

woodbowl

3 years in the Army. Could have been retired now with 30 years. Primary mission seemed to be picking up cigarette butts in the motor pool and crawling under a jeep and make hammering sounds when the Colonel walks by. After carefull contemplating and career planning, I decided to choose another field.          Hey lawyer_sawyer, why don't you modify your subject to post our unit and location.We may run up on some ole' buddies.  Mine is:  119th Transportation co. Ft Eustis Va. 1975 - 1978
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

Kirk_Allen

I spent a career in the Air Force and I agree with pretty much everyone has said so far.  Why did I choose the Air Force?

The fact that I wanted to be a Jet Mechanic was one but I could have done that in any branch. 

My Dad was a High School Counseler for years and had a chance to tour all the branchs facilities and talk with folks at those places.  He servied in the Army and retired as a Captain and although he would have liked me to follow in his foot steps he said that from what he could see of all the branches, the Air Force would provide a better opportunity for a Family Life if that is what I wanted some day.

He made a convincing argument and I can say that having been deployed around the world and seeing other branches, the Air Force definalty provided for us on the road better than the other branches.  We were called every name in the book over the years by the other branches because we almost always stayed in much nicer facitlities than the other branches. 

When we invaded Grenada we stayed in a 5 star hotel in Barbadoes, while the Army stayed in tents.  Its that type of thing I am talking about.  Right now I have a buddy that got back yesterday from his tour in Iraq.  They stayed in private quarters in Kuwait and only had to fly into Bagdad when a plane broke. 

Now when it comes to Family, I think ALL branches take care of there families.  Not having seen the base housing for the other branches in years I can only reference the Air Force. The Air Force has done a stand up job bring military housing to a new level.  When I got out the home I could have lived in was more than adequate.

Probably the most important thing I would encourage you to do is make sure you Wife FULLY understands what your getting into.  My first four years stationed in Biloxi, MS I was only on station 2 years of that time.  I was deployed the rest, mostly to Guam.  The rest of my career was far less deployment but that was because of my duty station, Elmendorf AFB, Alaska.  Our typical deployment was out and back to radar sites all over the state.    When we deployed for Desert Shield and Desert Storm we were on a 60 day rotation where other branches were deployed for 6 months or more. 

Ask lots of questions and go in fully prepared.

TexasTimbers

Former Coastie here, 1981 - 1985. It depends on so many things your answer can't be found here, but you probably know that, and you are doing the right thing because there is wisdom in the council of many, as long as the many have it :D
I tell young people coming out of high school, depending on their personality, to not forget about the USCG, but I don't give a blanket endorsement just because I served in it.
I was in Aviation so I didn't have to serve on "A Big White One" as we coasties call them. I advise young kids who have their heads screwed on straight and express an interest in furthering their education to check out the Air Force because the educational opportunities are better from what I remember. Your situation is different obviously, but I would bypass recruiters and contact personel currently practicing in the respective branches before I singled one out. To me, you'd get a no-B.S. accounting of what they think - and don't just talk to a division chief (XO or CO) talk to "foot soldier" type in the legal dept. also (a bottom-runger) and anyone in between that you can. That's just what I'd do.
Here is a link with some info from the USCG on practicing law as a Coastie.
Remember getting advice from a Gunners Mate or a RotorHead like me is probably useful to some point but your situation is a little different than what all the rest of us experienced. Good luck with whatever you decide, and thanks for wanting to serve your country.
USCG Legal
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

lawyer_sawyer

thank you all for your service and for your information.

I have been doing some research on this and was leaning toward the Air Force.  I just recently talked to a lt. col. who has been in for 20+ years to understand the process of application better and between him and former classmates in the JAG program it sounded like the Air Force was the better setup for my family.

I looked at the Coast Guards but I am noticed on one site that there was more actual criminal work involved with them than other branches.  I have to find that out for sure but criminal law is not something I want to strongly pursue.  although if I get in I will do whatever they tell me to do.

Kirk my wife is a real winner.  When I mentioned it to her and pulled off a list of bases to show her some of the places in the branches that we might live she put alaska at the top of her list.  she knows there could be time apart but it gives us an opportunity (and I don't mean this in a petty way) of osme job security to get us on our feet.  She is also interested in going many places and seeing different things.

thank you for the perspectives on all of the branches. 
I think it is fun sometimes to read the recruiting information.  It is interesting how things are presented.

the only downside to joining the military - and not really a downside just a postponement is I probably won't get my sawmill as soon as i wuold like.

any more comments will be great
thanks again
Jacob
Love the outdoors, chainsaws, my 300 win mag, my wife and my son but not exactly in that order.

oakiemac

I was in the Navy for 6 years. I don't think any of the JAG types ever goes to sea. You would be most likely stationed at some navy base.
I don't know which service to recommend but I would almost have to agree with the Air Force boys. You never have to worry about sea duty in the AF!
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Norwiscutter

I would stay away from the Navy Jag guys. Every week they seam to be in some kind a danger and out saving the world, doing hostage rescue missions and flying jets... I done scene it on TV so it must be true. :D
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

asy

Just curious, and sorry if this isn't the right place to ask..  but..

What's the difference between the Navy and the Marines?

Just askin' coz I don't know. Hope I don't offend anyone with the question.

asy :D
Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake.
There cannot be a crisis next week. ~My schedule is already full..

bee_pipes

Naw, no offense taken. The Marines are under the department of the Navy. Without starting a new forum... originally started out to provide security on Navy ships. The mission has changed a great deal since 1775. Now they are jacks of all trades - land, sea, air. The biggest difference is in the operating budget. I did a little time in the National Guard after getting out - they spent more on a two week summer camp than I saw the Marines spend in 10 years. The specialty is amphibious assaults, but the mission (last I read) was to close, lock with and destroy the enemy by means of fire and manuever. That's pretty general - specifics are amphibious operations, close air-to ground support, surgical tactical strikes. The Navy has aircraft, engineers, landing craft, etc. but their primary mission is to man and support the fleet. The Marines are the the deployable manpower transported by that fleet. Not just the Navy either, the Air Force transports Marine units when air is more expedient than sea. Sort of a small army, but with less funding. The Marines go in and hold a place with as small a unit as possible. When the Army goes into the field, they bring a city with them. Oh! Lest the Navy medical coprps be mad, the Navy provides medical support and deploys hospital corpsmen with tactical marine units. Then there's the sea-bees...

With all the action in the Middle East, for a fellow contemplating enlisted military service, the Coast Guard would be my first recommendation, then Air Force, then Navy. Takes a particular kind of fellow to put his head in the lion's mouth. I was watching the thread to vetrans with some interest. The duty cited there doesn't end with the enlistment. After putting your butt on the line for how ever many years, duty changes to keeping an eye on the government and doing your best not to let them send those that follow into harm's way unneccesarily. Don't knwo that I agree with the thinking behind Iraq, but those folks in the service are giving it their all and deserve my respect and support, regardless of branch or specialty.

... let me get off this soap box before I break my neck... <g>
I am not getting fat! I am developing a powerful set of muscles that allow me to sit for long periods of time without tiring...

whitepine

Please give some thought to your career, I do not know how to put this and be politicaly correct. but I have had a contract dispute with a senior Jag officer  several years ago and like alot of things in the military their training is useless if you return to civilian  life. Military law is a totally different thing than civilian law and you may find yourself in a position where you can only work for the government I hope you have been in the service already so you know what you are getting yourself into.

twoodward15

I'm still in the air force and would have to say that if you are looking for the best family life of the 5 branches then air force is the way to go.  being a JAG isn't going to add to your list of places you've been to I wouldn't think, but you won't be working too many weekends either.  Don't forget about the old one weekend a month two weeks a year deal that the guard and reserve have to offer.  Did you ask what the signing bonus is yet?  It should be at least 10K I think right now and is expected to soar to somewhere around 50k for officers.  That'll buy you a nice mill.
108 ARW   NKAWTG...N      Jersey Thunder

ARKANSAWYER


   One of my duties in the Army was as driver for the Commanding General of the 2nd Armored Division.   Got a pretty good veiw form the bottom of how the top works.   I worked with JAG quite a bit.   It would be for the most part a safe job and they did quite a bit of work.   As for the UMCJ not being the same as cilivian law it is the act that is the same.   A good mechanic can work on a generator, jeep, tank or helicopter with a good book.   His skills are the same as are the use of tools.   I have seen sorry lawyers both in and out of the service and it had nothing to do with serving or school.  Paper work may be different but application is the same.   Besides you can become a Vet.   As a Reserve Officer you can resign your commision at any time.
  Air Force is easier with Coast Guard and Army next and if you want to save the world and have adventure join the Navy/Marine. (we got TV too)

   Kirk,  I have been meaning to talk to you about that ride to Grenada and you are lucky I did not know about any hotel.  >:(
ARKANSAWYER

whitey

    I was in the army from 1962 -65 stationed  in the Panama Canal zone . one of my best freinds was in  the Jag and it was basicly a 9-5 job the only thing was he was there for 3 years like the rest of us. I would say Air force then army           Whitey
you  don't have to be crazy to cut juniper but it sure helps !

DanG

Arky, your combat career sounds a lot like mine.  I drove an "air jeep" and spent more than a few hours playing chauffuer to Lt. Gen Peers, who was IICorps Commander at that time.  I learned a lot about the "Big Picture" during that time, too.  I'd like to kick it around with you over a campfire sometime.

LS,  I'd be looking at anything BUT the Navy, if I were in your situation.  I'm quite sure that there are JAG officers on every fleet cruise, usually on the flagship.  If you join up with the Navy, you can be assured of some sea time.  With the other branches, there is the Iraq problem, which may well be cleared up by the time you get there.  I would be thinking Air Force or Army.  Both of them would be offering lots of positions in Garrison units.

As an officer, you can expect different treatment than the average "Joe" entering the service.  Being an officer exempts you from much of the regimentation, and offers better pay.  You might expect more activity on the criminal side of law, rather than the things your school-mates expect to face.  There isn't much "corporate", "business", and "insurance" law going on in the military.

I think the military would be a great place for a young attorney to gain experience in the practice of Law, as well as the practice of Life.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

pigman

Quote from: Kirk Allen on November 20, 2005, 10:25:14 AM

When we invaded Grenada we stayed in a 5 star hotel in Barbadoes, while the Army stayed in tents. 
Kirt,  the Army may stay in tents, but they are 5 star tents. ;D Here is my 5 star tent I stayed in for a couple weeks while working for our uncle. I think the officers stay in a little better tents, and the JAGs stayed in the best tents. 8)

Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

DanG

Hey, Bob the Grunt.  I take it those two weeks were in the dry season.  The monsoons woulda flushed you outa there in nuthin flat! :o :o
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

countrysaw

lawyer.

     Did you ever think of ARNG, Air Guard, reserves?  Plenty of time to be with the family, besides for the deployments, you would still get a good signing bonus, and start with a comission.  I know in my state that the Army national guard will repay up to 10k worth of school loans for you.  And with a civil affairs unit (JAG, Finanace, etc) you would not have to worry too much about danger in deployments.  And with the National Guard you can still go active at any time, and at least now you can switch over to active without losing rank, and you could get a feel for the system before you dive all the way in.  Just look at the UCMJ a little bit before you go too far, see if you can deal with all of its #*&%.  Just go to your local national guard, etc. armory he can give you info for most anything, active or reserve. 
     Just my babbling and incoherent 2 cents

zach
Right now i am playing in the sandbox

lawyer_sawyer

wow thank you for the insite

Whitepine - I know the law is going to be different.  I have been talking to a couple former JAG officers and what translates out is the ability not so much the knowledge of law.  you still have to practice in front of a court and learn case management skills.  The law will be different but it would be the actual experience of practicing law that is of more value at this point.  great point though and definitely something i will work to clarify for myself.

DanG - I like your last statement the best.  It is the practice of law and life that I feel that I need.  I also really want the opportunity to serve.  I never joined when I was younger partly because I never felt a pull or desire to let someone tell me what to do for 3-4 years.  Now I realize i have a degree that could be useful with the right shaping of it.  I think I can get that better in the armed forces than sitting in a back room researching all day.  The pay isn't as good as private practice but the opportunity to serve and skills far outweigh that.

for me it is something I have no experience with.  those in my family who have served do not like talking about it.  and those who haven't have nothing to talk about. 
thank you for your experiences and opinions.
Now it is up to God and where He wants me. :)
Love the outdoors, chainsaws, my 300 win mag, my wife and my son but not exactly in that order.

logman

I spent 11 years in the Coast Guard.  The one thing I liked about the Coast
Guard was that you have a mission other than training for war or actually
going to war.  Not that the CG doesn't go to war, there's been at least
1 Coastie killed in I believe Iraq, but their main mission is saving lives.
Out of 11 years I only spent 2 years on an icebreaker in which I was
deployed twice for 6 months each to Antarctica.  The rest of the time I spent
at small boat stations.  I don't know anything about lawyers in the CG
though. 
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

TexasTimbers

Jacob,

I know you have pretty much ruled out the Coast Guard because you don't care for criminal law but you should still talk to them, as there are surely lawyers who practice in other areas either wholly or in a greater part.
Also a point that hasn't been made is that (at least when iwas in) the NYPD had more employees than we did worldwide. 34,000ish versus 32,000ish for us. It translated into over quicker advancement than in any of the other services plus you aren't "lost in the crowd" nearly as much.

Of course, according to some in the US Navy, if you are planning on joining the USCG and doing time on a boat, you must be at least 6' tall so in case the boat sinks you can wade back to shore :D

In addition, I don't know about the legal dept. but the myth that the USCG is "easier" than other services is exactly that. A big myth. A typical billet in Coast Guard Aviation will consist of responsibilities far exceeding that of Air Force or most Navy job descriptions, simply because of the chronic undermanned nature of the service and other reasons too extensive to elaborate on for this instance. Perhaps 9-11 funding helped out in this area but I would suspect the problem has been exacerbated by the further increased role of the CG,and perhaps the legal dept is feeling the strain as well.
My point is I would not neglect to at least talk to someone in the CG before ruling it out, out of hand. I would suspect you'd also get into international law more as well. Either the navy or CG will venture into areas of law the other branches may just touch on.
I can't see how the CG could place second against any of the services when it comes to family. Our bases/detachments are always MUCH MUCH smaller and more family oriented than any other service hands down. Too, the CG  has more prior-service personel coming over from other branches than vice-versa (again, at least when I was in).

Quote from: asy on November 20, 2005, 05:32:18 PM
Just curious, and sorry if this isn't the right place to ask.. but..

What's the difference between the Navy and the Marines?

Just askin' coz I don't know. Hope I don't offend anyone with the question.

asy :D

asy, this is sort of an answer to a question you didn't ask ;) but when comparing the USCG to the Navy or MArines, we are the oldest seagoing service in the United States dating back to 1790, 8 years prior to the Navy. Originally the Revenue Cutter Service, the USCG has an interesting past. The "first" Navy of course, before the U.S. even existed, was the Continental Navy.

But here's MY FAVORITE NAVY and has an even more storied past!

The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

logman

Hey KevJay, do you know about Fred's Place?
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

Ernie

I suppose that the most important question would be.  How much time will JAG give you off for milling ;D
A very wise man once told me . Grand children are great, we should have had them first

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