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For better or for worse...CNC?

Started by Deadwood, November 08, 2005, 09:20:55 PM

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Deadwood

Let me start out by saying that I am not a sawyer. My family has three sawmills and I have, and can, saw logs into boards, but I still do not consider myself a sawyer. I am a Machinist, and that is a craft I take pride in, throughly understand and do safely. The latter of which I think is just as important as the first.

Unfortunately in my craft CNC Machines have really taken the skill out of the craft. Sure their are true machinists that can do amazing things with these new machines. Orange County Choppers show these guys every week on their show, but the majority of the people that call themselves machinists are really just parts changers. CNC I am afraid is the culperate. I remember my grandafather chatting away with us as kids at the engine house, then stopping in mid sentence and giving the lathe a half crank. He did it because the machine had a "spot that was out". I didn't know what that meant then, but I suspect now it was in the 1 thousanths range! Nowadays, the CNC Machine would drive the bit into the steel and break it because it has no feel, and the Machinsit has no feel with the machine.

My only experience with sawmills has been with a 1901 Lane circle mill, and small hobby bandsaws. No CNC, but I am sure if they are not out here already, they will be soon. So I was curious what a true Sawyer's opinion is on this.

Do you see CNC as beneficial, or worthless? Do you see it as invading most of the sawmills, even the home hobbist mills? Do you think it will improve the sawyer's ability to make consistent, concise lumber, or take away from the skill of a Sawyer? Most of all do you think CNC Sawmills will eventually take away some of the respect that a sawyer now has, kind of like the way CNC machines have done to the Machinist Craft?


Bro. Noble

I know what SOKIA is but,  what the heck's CNC?  As far as I know it's not effecting my sawing.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Jason_WI

CNC = Computer Numerical Control .....AKA Setworks

Bandillls use setworks to automatically move the sawhead up and down, kinda like CNC with only one axis.

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

Deadwood

Well it seems as if our roles are reversed. I have no idea what SKOIA is, but CNC=Computer Numerically Controlled. In other words lasers and computer programing control the placement of the blade (or tool bit in my case).

Deadwood

Okay now I know what setworks is, but do they have sawmills that automatically roll the log for best yield, then index the head and saw. In other words, you roll the log on and then the computer program takes over.

As I said, I have no clue about these newwer saw rigs. Heck I am still trying to figure out the old Lane and it was new 105 years ago!

Furby

Some of the really big mills can scan a log and the computer will set a cutting pattern to get the best yeild from that log, then cut.
But that's the really BIG mills. ;)

Dan_Shade

as cheap as most of us are, I don't see computers running much of a sawmill for a hobbyist.... setworks is probably as close as it will get, but that can be compared to locking the feed on an old lathe...

I think the CNC stuff is a good thing, better, more consistant parts for cheaper.  it's sort of like comparing a drafting board, pencils and paper to CAD.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Tom

I was reading some information from SOKIA about the computerization of sawmills and even the small mills are taking over more and more of the decision making of the sawyer.   Some will cut the cant through and through now once it has been squared.  It may come to the time when a saw pattern will allow computerized squaring of the cant.  Computers become smaller and smarter every day.  There was a time when they took up rooms.   The first Computer I worked on was a 401B accounting machine.  It was only a little more powerful than the little hand held calculator that you buy from the Pharmacy's gadget counter for $5.00 now.   It could be programmed but the program was hardwired on a board by the operator.

I used to run parts of a payroll and parts of an inventory system on an RCA 301 and later an RCA 3301 whose operating panel took up an entire wall about 8' x 15'.

Today, the computer sitting on your desk is Thousands of times faster and intelligently larger. 

If the industry really wanted to take advantage of computerization, the technology is almost here that the samill could run on its own.   It will need eyes but that is possible with technology.  It will need a housekeeper.   That, we will probably be relegated to.  :D  You'll just have to be a smart housekeeper in case something goes wrong.   Unfortunately, computers can't always tell if they screwed up.  :D :D

dutchman

As a tool and die finisher (all hand work) CNC has a place in production,
but you still need a very good engineer, just to get started.
NC has not replaced hands on experience.
I can read a log well enough to meet the averages for grade.
But not against a sonic reader,and computerized saw.
Everyone has a feel for their particular job,log buyer,kiln operator,grader,
sawyer.
Who do you turn to when the computer goes out?

Dan_Shade

you don't turn to anyone, you just FREAK OUT!  :D
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Furby

That and keep pushing buttons until the thing locks up! :D

Modat22

CNC is just another tool. With a CNC enabled setup the feed rate can automatically adjust to the load on the saw and adjust to a dulling band. It could (based on software) alert you when to change a blade based on user set parameters and also keep a nice electronic log containing cutting characteristics per blade, wood type, location etc.

I've been playing with little CNC routers as a hobby, so I'm a bit pro cnc.
remember man that thy are dust.

Frickman

Most of us who saw enjoy working with wood, so even if computerized gizmos were available for our little mills, we'd probably pass on them. I have been in mills like Furby mentioned where the log is scanned and the computer comes up with a sawing pattern. The operator still runs the mill and can override the computer if he sees something the scanner doesn't.

My hydraulic man told me last week of a dozer he had to do a service call on. This thing used GPS and lasers to guide itself while it worked, and run the machine and adjust the blade. The operator was just along for the ride and made certain that nobody got run over.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Tom

Frickman,
Some years ago, I sat at the edge of a big potato field and watched 3 big White tractors leveling it with box blades as big as my bedroom.

The Owner came over to visit when he decided I wasn't going to leave  :D   and we talked for the rest of the afternoon.   It turned out that his daughters and niece were driving the tractors.  They ranged in age from  eight to twelve.   The box blades were guided by lasers which were on the corners of the field and all the girls had to do was drive around on this 500 acre piece of ground.   They had radios and CB's and were having a blast. :) 

Bro. Noble

I recently posted on another thread about and auction of the CC Porter estate.  CC was way up in his 90's and was still active earlier in the week that he died.  He was a retired machinest, and later, contractor.  After retiring from that he bought a farm and built lakes on every bit of it that was suitable.  Some of them were big enough to ski on.  CC had paddle boats,  row boats and pontoon boats that he rented out to the public and had fee fishing.  He let school,  church,  and youth groups use his facilities free.

Well what I'm getting to is CC built the many acres of lakes himself with a 50's vintage dozer and scraper.  He had them rigged so that he operated them at the same time by himself.  He wore out the blade on the dozer and had to replace it.

He didn't need no stinkin CNC :D :D
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Norwiscutter

 I can think of no better way to dramatically increase output in a small scale sawing operation than CNC.  If the technology was available to allow the sawer to basically oversee the sawing process while tailing boards, I bet production of a single guy could go up at least 50% over the norm. Over head could be reduced because it could potentially make it unnecessary to hire a board puller. Just think, no workers comp, unemployment, etc. that has to be paid. If a computer could scan the log, present a saw patern on a screen to be  approved by the sawer, then exicute, I can see a definate benifit in the small sawmill industry.  I bet the avarage for a single sawyer could easily jump from 1000-1200 bf/ per day to 1400-1600 bf per day without over whelming the sawer.  That could potentially mean an additional  $60.00 per day profit if a guy were to average $0.15/bf profit after overhead. Four days/week cutting would mean an extra 240.00 a week or 12000.00 per year.( 50 weeks)  I can see an option like that paying off extremely fast and I can see paying a decent amount to get such an option. The question is, which manufacturer is going to invest the time and money to develop such a program for their mill line?
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

shopteacher

I've been teaching kids at school the use of CNC in production and industry settings now for the past 6 years.  We have a MultiCam CNC router and are currently cutting a dinosaur for Toy's for Tot's  Christmas program.  This would be hard to do in a high school woodshop without the CNC.  All parts are cut exactly alike and extremely accurate.  Hand sanding, finishing and assembly are left up to the individual.  The parts are divided and assigned to each student who must draw and program his part using AlphaCam software. A proto type is assembled and and needed changes made to get all parts working properly.  This year we are building 40 Stegosaurus for the program. Innovation and technology are great in their place.
   I prefer to operate the sawmill manually as far as cutting but would hate to do without the hydraulics. Which is just an earlier form of technology. Remember the dozer's with cable winches to raise the blade?
  At home I have a Rockwell mill and a Southbend lathe that I like to operate, but would hate to have to create a 1000 identical parts per day on them.
    I guess the gist of my rantings boils down to both are great means of doing things and many boring tasks have been eliminated by automation, but we're still  free to choose the means by which we go about doing things.
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

Norm

Hey Glenn I'd sure like to see a picture of that toy if you get a chance.

shopteacher

Be glad to when a few are done.  Here's a couple pics of the new guy at our place. Almost 12 weeks old.  You may remember I lost my other cocker last July and have finally got to the point of being able to get another.  He's no Bailey, but he a good pup just the same. Named him Max.





Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

ARKANSAWYER

   
  Was reading an artical in a trade rag about the new mills with optimizers and all the bells and whistles.  Curve sawing was done at 600 ft per min and the computer was going to up production by 30%.  Several million bucks spent and no more coin coming in?  ???  The amount the mill produced did jump but the value of the wood did not.   Seems when you saw a board from a curved log and steam it flat it will stay that way.  Just because you can saw more boards from a log does not mean they will sell better. 
  CNC is cool and we have had it in the timber framing industry for years.  The Humdinger (SP) can cut out timber frames at a very fast speed and all of them fit right the first time.  Put in a big stick and out pops a ready to go timber.   Craftsmanship is gone.  They all look alike.   Cheaper then hiring a man any day.
  Glad more things are going that way.  That way when it hits the fan (and it will) those who can not do for them selves or have a craft will starve to death.  We are in the information age but I am here to say that information does not fill the belly.   Application of knowledge fills the belly.
   I have tried to saw with the big WM's with computers but could not wait for it.   To many changes in the log and more money could be made by changing the cut.  Grade as well as what sells best are done more by feel than any thing.  If you was just canting logs and made money by bdftage then I guess that would be fine.  As for curve sawing I see no real use.   Just rember that this country was built by men with less then a 10th grade education with paper and pencils.
  Me, I am all for it.   The less sawyers the less competiton I have for good lumber.
ARKANSAWYER

woodhick

Arkansawyer I agree with you whole heartedly.  I recently started a sawing job for a local timber framer.  When he contacted me "by phone" to saw for him he told me I would be resawing kiln dried timbers before they go to planer.  Sounded good so I wnet to check it out.  first let me say I have always had a love for wood and working with wood, and love the whole timber framing concept.  I hope someday to build my own. ;)  Anyway when I went in this guys shop all I seen were two machines.  Both Hundeggers which are Geman built.  He has a four sided planer and a K2 which is a cnc controlled machine that does all of the mortise,tenons,angle cuts, drilling, everything.  I was really let down.  I know that in todays world it's all about production rates and profit.  I watch my kids and there friends, with all of the electronic gadgets that abound out there today and how fast todays younger generation masters all of there abilities, but ask them to do something without using some gadget and they panic.  I try to let my kids keep up with technology but I don't wnat them to forget the "old" ways.  I have told them many times,(and I'm sure they get itred of hearing it) that the worlds best classroom is at the feet of an old person, that if they will just listen to them thay can learn much.  I feel that somewhere down the road the need for SKILLED people will return.Sorry to go on so long but I see this country spiraling downhill on it's morals and values and I just hope we can recover before it's too late.  Take the time to teach your kids about there past. :P
Woodmizer LT40 Super 42hp Kubota, and more heavy iron woodworking equipment than I have room for.

lamar

woodhick, AH MEN TO  THAT. When I finished my machinist app. we got just a little nc training (tape control) We had one maching center(basicly a mill drill) so all we did is a little programing. That was in early 70's  I use my machine background in many things I do but cnc probably not fit in. I never liked production work anyway.That is probably why I can't make much production on my band mill. Spend to much time looking at each face and trying to figure things out ??? :P smiley_dark_bulb

solodan

CNC will always have its place in production, but custom + specialty work
never really benifits from it. I knew a guy who made snowboard bindings. He also had a custom machine shop. He would make all of his binding prototypes in his shop, because he had full control over every aspect of the design, and they could make a hundred pairs, and each pair could be a bit different. when they came up with a design they liked, they sent the blue prints to a production facility that ran the CNC's. then he would go back to his shop and make custom parts and pieces for people. he had a very sucessful shop, but CNC was not appropriate for his needs. Custom work is custom, and that's what the customers are paying for. It's the same with sawing, the big mills need the CNC, because they need to supply the big box stores, but you can't go there and buy the stuff some of the guys on this forum are producing.

james

there are exceptions to cnc not being good for custom just look at the picture that was cut out of the circle saw jeff has
james

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