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Alternative engines for homemade sawmill designs

Started by woodbowl, October 26, 2005, 12:47:58 AM

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woodbowl

After getting back from the Moultrie expo and seeing all the latest sawmills, and sawing systems, reality is slipping back to tell me that I am fresh out of $60,000 thousands. A new 65 HP Perkins diesel is the power pack of choice but I'm afraid it ain't gona' happen. With all the junk yards around and cheap power sources, what's wrong with being inovative enough to put a vehicle motor on a homemade bandmill or swingmill? It's been done many times, I've just haven't tracked any down yet. Please share what you know and think about, concerning retrofitting auto engines for sawmill design. Pics would be nice. ;D
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

Swede

I´ve seen some home made machines with engines from trucks and cars. There is a lot of fuel to save with a speed control and without it you need a much biger engine with more torqe.
Thats why I think a car engine isn´t what you need for an aircompressor, generator or sawmill.

Swede.
Had a mobile band sawmill, All hydraulics  for logs 30\"x19´, remote control. (sold it 2009-04-13)
Monkey Blades.Sold them too)
Jonsered 535/15\". Just cut firewood now.

freddycougar

hi folks.. new here, lurking for a while... just read this post... i am curently building a bandmill and i beleive i have found the perfect engine for it .. an early vw diesel.. they produce about 60 hp,at 3500 rpm..  cheap on fuel. and u can buy a complete car for 500$ .... they are light, under 300 lbs, and are quite small in size . this is what i will use to power my mill.
thanks freddy

rbarshaw

Well you know I think a motorcycle engine is just about perfectly suited for a sawmill, especially if it has a automatic transmission. They are very light weight.
Been doing so much with so little for so long I can now do anything with nothing, except help from y'all!
By the way rbarshaw is short for Robert Barshaw.
My Second Mill Is Shopbuilt 64HP,37" wheels, still a work in progress.

DonE911

If I was starting from scratch ( which I'm not ) I would consider multiple uses for the power plant.    I'd be tempted to go with an electric mill and have a generator mounted in the truck to power it.    The generator could also be used to power the house in power outages and maybe even some other stuff like general shop tools....  moulders,saws ect.

I'll be looking thru ebay for all the hardly used generators that should be hitting the market this winter. I'm not looking to power a mill, but I might like to power some of that other equipment with it.

sawguy21

I don't know how long an automotive engine would take the high rpm and heavy load  in a mill application. They usually see short bursts of acceleration and a lot of loafing. Well at least for most of us  I have been known to abuse one or two ;D What about using the engine out of a combine?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Dan_Shade

you fix the band speed by pulleys to get the rpms matched up.  I'd think the weight would be a bigger concern.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Rockn H

I know of a few generators here that are using an early '80s volkswagon diesel turn power them.  They seem to hold up well.  They used pulleys and belts to change the ratio so they run at 1200 rpm instead of 3600.  What I would be worried about is the weight also.

D._Frederick

I sure would go along with the VW diesel for use with a narrow band sawmill, the main problem would be to find one that is not burned up. The cost to over-haul a diesel takes a big bunch of change. The VW engine has an aluminum head, that can be damaged if the engine has been run hot.

To use it for a power plant, requires a governor and a outboard bearing mounted by the flywheel to take the stress from belts. It would need a larger radiator than used in a VW car and would need a belt driven fan.

Murf

Actually Don, if'n yer talking about powering a mill all electric it would be a whole bunch cheaper and easier ta run a big'n.

You can git a military or industrial surplus genset for surprisingly little coin if it's setup ta give ya 600 volts on 3 phase.

Likewise, big electric motors are a lot easier ta come by in that voltage than 220 volt.

For everything else just run it to a step-down transformer ta give ya the 200 volt or 120 volt ya need.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

tnlogger

Dang got me thing on this when he posted about an engine for his md
you could takke the whole sub frame out of a 4cly or v6 car and lock one side of the transaxle
with the brake on the other side you can put a pulley in the place of the wheel to run the mill
you could makeaframe to reduce the size and weight.  ???
gene

IL Bull

You would need a fully governed engine or when you took the load off of the engine it would over rev.  I can't see how you could get a gas auto engine to work without a governor.
A diesel should work because they are governed.
I can't imagine how high a motorcycle engine would rev without a load. smiley_huh2
Case Skid Steer,  Ford Backhoe,  Allis WD45 and Burg Manual Sawmill

Murf

I suspect a car engine could be rpm governered electrically using the fuel infection computer, same as the electric governor on my power stroke diesel does it.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

rbarshaw

Ya'll are over thinking this governor thing, all ya need is an aftermarket cruise control for a car. there are many types, they work off the distributor, the computer, or a magnet attached to a rotating shaft.
Been doing so much with so little for so long I can now do anything with nothing, except help from y'all!
By the way rbarshaw is short for Robert Barshaw.
My Second Mill Is Shopbuilt 64HP,37" wheels, still a work in progress.

SAW MILLER

  When I was runnig a home built mill I was tempted to power it with a GEO metro 3 cyl. It would be real light and easy on gas.I owned two of them and drove both way over 100,000 mi. with no repairs.I just was't sure about all the computer  junk you would have to keep intact for the fuel injection.
LT 40 woodmizer..Massey ferg.240 walker gyp and a canthook

Radar67

Woodbowl,
     Considering the weight of the engines, have you considered either A) Keep the sawhead stationary as far as up and down is concerned. It would still slide back and forth. Make the bed raise and lower via hydraulics, or B) Turn the sawhead 90 degrees from normal (similar to a shop bandsaw), make the head slide back and forth or make the log bed slide like a circular sawmill.

Just a couple of ideas to get those cogs turning.

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

woodbowl

Been thinking mainly about the Brand X swinger configuration. You could put what ever motor you wanted to on that baby.  ;)
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

Murf

Here's a nudder whacky idea ....  ::)

Why couldn'cha take a regular small car engine, couple a big honkin' (surplus) hydraulic pump, or a coupla' smaller ones, to the back of it and power the mill with a hydraulic motor.

It would leave ya' enough spare hydraulic power an flow to make just about everything down to the operator's chair hydraulically powered or adjustable......... ::)

Udder dan da obvious losses of a hydrostatic system, seems ya could do it without too much sacrifice.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

DanG

I like D&L's approach with the Doublecut mills.  They use a small(6hp I think) engine to run the hydraulics.  This way, they don't have hoses laying around everywhere, and have plenty of hydraulic power for whatever is needed.  These little engines only cost a couple hundred bucks, so you could keep a spare, and you don't have to disassemble the whole mill to replace it.

Also, with their four-poster design, weight of the main engine isn't such a big issue.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

woodbowl

Quote from: Murf on October 27, 2005, 09:49:06 AM


Why couldn'cha take a regular small car engine, couple a big honkin' (surplus) hydraulic pump, or a coupla' smaller ones, to the back of it and power the mill with a hydraulic motor.


That will work Murf!  .............Seems I've heard somewhere that you take a big cut in effeciency in the power transfer, like 65%! That only leaves one third of the power you started off with.  ...........Anybody know anything about this?
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

DanG

I don't know about the 65% bizness, but I know that anytime you change modes of power, you always have a transfer loss.  The idea is intriguing, but not enough to make it worthwhile, given today's energy prices.  That, of course, is just my humble opinion, and you all know that all of my opinions are humble.  I think Logmaster powers some of their mills with hydraulic motors, but I don't see them putting Woodmizer or Baker out of business. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Ianab

Some of the early Peterson mills went with hydralic drive, so it definately works.

One option was to drive it from a tractors hydralic system, but if I remember right it had to be a big (80hp) tractor to have a hydralic system with enough flow to run the mill properly. It wouldn't have taken the whole 80hp, but a smaller tractor just wont pump enough oil to do the job.

The other setup I've seen was a diesel engine / pump mounted on a trailer. The mill rails / frame could then be loaded on top for transport so the whole mill was still pretty portable.

As Woodbowl pointed out it may be that the losses in the hydralic system / cost of the bigger motor outweigh any other advantages with the system, but if you already had a big diesel and some cheap hydralic components it can definately be made to work.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

freddycougar

re hydralauic loss-most hydrostatic drives are 95 98 efficent.. the rest5-2 percent are converted to heat. costly compared to belt/chain/gear drives but more vavable or when it is unecenomical  (sp)to use due to distance/angles
freddy

iain

This saw works good, cuts like a beast


http://www.scrubtec.co.uk/

cancel the pop up disply thiny and click on the trekka saw pic

or phone them they will talk to you for a goodly amount of time if your not a tyre kicker


iain

woodbowl

Quote from: freddycougar on October 28, 2005, 12:31:16 AM
re hydralauic loss-most hydrostatic drives are 95 98 efficent.. the rest5-2 percent are converted to heat. costly compared to belt/chain/gear drives but more vavable or when it is unecenomical  (sp)to use due to distance/angles
freddy
Not understanding any of this. Can someone translate?
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

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