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Oldest Living Red Spruce, New Record

Started by SwampDonkey, October 19, 2005, 06:03:51 PM

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SwampDonkey

Recently discovered by Ben Phillips, a 3rd year student of Environmental Studies at Mount Allison University at Sackville New Brunswick, is a 445 year old red spruce in the Fundy Model Forest Region of the province. The tree was found in a stand of 300 + year old red spruce. The trees in the stand were reported to be covered in a blue-green algae and stood out with a whitish glow to the bark. Apparently the tree was only 18 inches in diameter. The tree's location is being kept secret to protect the welfare of the tree. Article posted at Mount Allison site below:

http://www.mta.ca/news/index.cgi

This beats an older record red spruce of 439 years old (2000 news article) in the White Mountains of NH (not Vermont) ;), near Nancy Brook in Crawford Notch.

Here's an article from the Wonalancet Out Door Club in NH

http://www.wodc.org/newsletter/2000-11.pdf

Use the search function to find 'red spruce' in the article. I think you'll end up on page 8.

I must say I've seen some pretty impressive red spruce in the Jefferson National Forest in Virginia and the Smokie Mountain Range. :)  I have also seen some nice specimens at the Village of Perth in NB, where I collected cones and supervised tree harvesting for the town. I think the trees have been mostly harvested by a greedy contractor since. I measured red spruce as big as 30 inches on that sight. Dale Simpson, from Forestry Canada, also collected seed from these trees in 1999.

cheers :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sprucebunny

That's very interesting  :)

I'd never considered how or when trees got here and would have thought spruces had been here longer than hardwoods. I also never thought of hemlock as slow growing. The ones next to my deck grow more than a foot a year.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

beenthere

Swampydonk
How do you suspect they aged this old spruce?  Increment borer?  A real long one?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Riles

The only way to date a living tree accurately would be with an increment borer, with the exception of white pine.

If you ever saw the special on the Methusela tree, you know how handy the increment borer is. The researcher cut the first tree down only to discover to his horror that he had just killed the oldest living thing on earth. He used an increment borer from then on and discovered the NEXT oldest tree, more than 5,000 years old.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

SwampDonkey

beenthere, the increment borer is the intial phase of aging the trees. With most of us measuring tree ages we count the rings of the core taken at breast height and add 5 years for softwoods to get total age. Sometimes we take a core at the stump to check for butt rot. From what I understand the core Mr Phillips took was then taken into a lab and clamped some way and then sanded with 600 grit. Then the rings were counted by computer and under magnification. I think some of the growth rings where only 3 cells wide. Tiny, mituculous work.

I sent Mr Phillips an email on his discovery and invited him to come to the forum and explain his research. Hopefully, he will join in and give us the spiel. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

I just received an email from Ben Phillips and I'm posting his email with permission.

QuoteHi there William,

Thanks for your interest.  Also, thanks for the heads up on the trees found in New Hampshire.  If you like you can post the following on the disscusion board you mentioned.  I work in the MAD Lab (Mount Allison Dendrochronology Lab).  My research is analyzing paleoclimates of the Fundy escarpment region in comparison to the Caledonia Highlands region.  The coastal area is affected by thick fog which develops off the Bay.  We conduct our research, which can be ecological, climatic, or archeaological amoung many others, by measuring tree cores to 1/1000 of a millimetre using computer software or a microscope system.  The oldest red spruce was measured with the microscope after sanding the tree core to 1000 grit.  After measuring we run the data through various statistical computer programs to pull the appropriate data from the trees.  Check our website in a few weeks after we update it to find out more,
http://www.mta.ca/madlab/
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
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Phorester


BEENTHERE:

"How do you suspect they aged this old spruce?  Increment borer?  A real long one?"

Maybe they cut it down and counted the rings on the stump.    ;D

redpowerd

Quote from: Riles on October 19, 2005, 08:33:20 PM
The only way to date a living tree accurately would be with an increment borer, with the exception of white pine.

If you ever saw the special on the Methusela tree, you know how handy the increment borer is. The researcher cut the first tree down only to discover to his horror that he had just killed the oldest living thing on earth. He used an increment borer from then on and discovered the NEXT oldest tree, more than 5,000 years old.

why is white pine the exception?
NO FARMERS -- NO FOOD
northern adirondak yankee farmer

Riles

It was my understanding that the end of a white pine's growing season is where the next set of branches form. So instead of boring and counting rings, you can count layers of branches. Granted, it's not as accurate as increment boring, you have to contend with pruning of the lower branches over time.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

beenthere

Is a layer of branches what we used to call a "whorl" ? 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Phorester


BEENTHERE, yep.  Stil call it that.

Riles

Y'all and yer teknickel terms. I wuz gonna call it "palmately branched."  :D
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

SwampDonkey

I was going to add that it's no more reliable than the borer, but quite useful when aging young trees. It's common to age a stand in 10 or 20 year age classes. As mentioned on another thread, and I have had white pine do this, they can have an additional late season flush. It's also very common in red oak. So you can get two whorls/bud scars in one year. ;D ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Minnesota_boy

White pine branches die as the tree grows and has competition, but they don't fall off like most other trees until the tree becomes quite old, so you can look close and see where the whorl of branches were for many years.  While young, red pine can be aged the same but they self prune much younger and you lose the record of the early growth as the tree grows over the short stobs.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Burlkraft

I thought a "whorl" wuz what I saw while I wuz in Amsterdam ??? ??? :D :D
Why not just 1 pain free day?

SwampDonkey

I find the dead limbs on white pine are less resiliant than on white spruce. I've seen red pine plantations with dead limbs after 40 years still attached. I find that most owners will butt prune them and dispose of the limbs after 10 years so the evidence (knot scars) is soon gone within the next 10. ;) Recently, did some spacing in some 14 year old red pine and the dead limbs are still there and a pain in the ashes. You end up pruning as well as cutting out competition from naturals or you just hit a wall of sticks.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Raphael

Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 19, 2005, 06:03:51 PM
Recently discovered by Ben Phillips, a 3rd year student of Environmental Studies at Mount Allison University at Sackville New Brunswick, is a 445 year old red spruce in the Fundy Model Forest Region of the province.

<snip>

This beats an older record red spruce of 439 years old (2000 news article) in the White Mountains of NH (not Vermont) ;), near Nancy Brook in Crawford Notch.

Hmm... Last I knew 439 + 6 = 445 ;)
Looks more like a tie for oldest red spruce or did the tree from 2000 get cut down?
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

SwampDonkey

Yup, that's why I notified him in private email and never received any followup.   ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mdvaden

Did everybody note that the quote in Reply #6 ends with a tiny hyperlink to the website?

Just thought I'd mention it. Hard to see with blue / on / blue.

Might make a good bookmark for future reference.

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