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WARNING - ALL ILLINOIS WOODLOT OWNERS- URGENT

Started by Kirk_Allen, October 19, 2005, 09:44:04 AM

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Kirk_Allen

I attended a Forestry Workshop the other day and and found out some VERY DISTURBING news for Illinois Woodlot owners. 

Our lustorious GOV. has pushed legislation through that requires a tax change for ALL WOODLOTS. 

If you are a Woodlot owner you currently are paying agriculture rate on your taxes.  NO LONGER will that be permitted UNLESS you woodlot is registered in a State Forest Management program. 

I spoke to one farmer whos tax went from $18 on his woodlot to $900 :o  >:(   Woodlots are going to be taxed as Recreational Land if its not under a State Forest Management program.

The real kicker to this is the State is supposed to provide the forester to establish this plan for any woodlot owner that wants one.  THEY CANT DO IT NOW! 

Our Gov. and legislatures passed a LITTLE one line entry into another bill that permitts them to take funds from the DNR Forrestry division and place them in the General Fund "IF NEEDED".

Well of course they are needed in the eyes of the thiefs.  Now the State Foresters dont have the funding to even drive to the areas in there county.  Our District Forester who takes care of 8 counties only gets 3/4 of a tank of gas a week. 

Our 4% Timber Tax that is supposed to support this program has been RAPED by the legislatures. 

If you call to get your woodlot into the program, which you have to do by Dec. 31st to be effecitve for next years tax bill, they will tell you that you have to hire a private Forester to get it done on time because they dont have the funding to come out and do it. 

The Forester is just as MAD about this as the landowners and we are trying to put together a Illinois Forest Association to assist in fighting this fight. 

The local retired Forester is doing management plans for $10 an acre/ $300.00 minimum.  He is swamped right now. 

RIGHT YOUR LEGISLATURES AND DEMAND ANSWERS AS TO WHY OUR FORESTRY DIVISION HAS BEEN RAPED. 

The STATE Forester atttended this meeting as well and said that in some counties people will see as much as $50.00 an acre tax every year. 

crtreedude

This is insane!  >:( What I would urge is for you to get the environmental folks on your side on this one. If you are taxed this way, pretty soon cutting all the trees is the only thing that will make economic sense. Let your politicians fight the environmental folk AND the woodlot owners.

I think all you need to do to be a politician is to be an idiot. In NJ once a governor raised the tax on cars - which just about killed the car dealers in NJ - the ones in NY and PA did really well. The government actually LOST tax revenue. Why pay more for a car when you can take a short drive and pay a lot less.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

beenthere

Kirk
In Wisconsin, they increased the assessment for property tax calculations to $3000 an acre for forest land. If the forest is in the Managed Forest Law (MFL) program, then there is a fixed (low) tax per acre.  It's another way to get 'control' of what we privately own.
In Wisconsin, all the forest land that is in the MFL program, is certified under the American Tree Farm System (ATFS) now.

Your situation sounds like the next level above ours to 'confiscate' or control the private ownership of forests and their use.
Another form of taking, IMO.

CR
I agree its insane.
But I don't think the 'enviros' have any real interest in saving the forests from destruction (conversion to ag land), as that is but an excuse for them to see to it that private landowners should not control their own destiny.  My take on the 'enviro' movement, is they have a socialist mentality and objectives. Some are truly interested in the environment and doing the right thing, but not the majority, IMO.   Even NatureConservancy is in my opinion interested only in removing land from any form of forest management for wood production. And to me, that is a risk for plantations as well. When the powers to be want to control it, they will, as the majority of voters don't own land or forests. Supposedly we have a Constitution that protects from that taking. I'd like to see a swing back in that direction sometime soon.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

crtreedude

I don't mind the environmental types like Nature Conservancy who BUY the land and then let people hike on it. If it is your land, it is your choice. We however are trying to have our cake and eat it too - build a rainforest that is managed for wildlife, biodiversity and lastly, wood as a way to pay for the other.

There is nothing wrong with harvesting a tree when it is ready - just like there is nothing wrong with harvesting a head of lettuce.  To me, trees are just really big lettuce. :)

However, monocrops have some problems for the long haul. governments have even more problems. Perhaps the issue is that the people representing us are monocrop lawyers - I think some thinning is in order...  ;D
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Phorester

"Perhaps the issue is that the people representing us are monocrop lawyers - I think some thinning is in order... "

HAH!  Good one!   Maybe even a clearcut or two in selected places......then regenerate with Foresters......

crtreedude

Yeah, sort of weird to have a House of Representives made up of only lawyers and professional politicians - sure is a good representation of the rest of us...  >:(
So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

Quote from: crtreedude on October 19, 2005, 09:55:01 AM
In NJ once a governor raised the tax on cars - which just about killed the car dealers in NJ - the ones in NY and PA did really well. The government actually LOST tax revenue. Why pay more for a car when you can take a short drive and pay a lot less.

Hmmm in Canada, if you buy a new car outside your home province you are hit with the tax as soon has it is registered in your home province. You, as the purchaser, have to pay tax on any vehicle bought as soon as it's registered in your name. I know some are getting around this by not registering and not driving with insurance.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Kirk, if the government tried that here, there would be a march on the Legislature. People just don't have that kind of money and it would be seen as a method to confiscate land from the small woodlot owner to sell off to industrial forestry. It's just about to come to blows here over the right to 'primary source of supply' from private woodlots. The province is shipping out 300,000 m^3 and complaining about wood shortages, industry are refusing private wood and using crown wood with below market value, rural jobs are being lost.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Frank_Pender

Kirk, I see this as a taking as well and a possible epidemic among govenors and legislators.   Oregon, recently, passed a new set of guidelines that tell us that any timber land less than nine acres is not a respectable amount of land to manage timber.   So, they have been able to take the smaller parcels and tax them at the full advolum rate.  DanG bunch of Communists. >:( :'(

  Like was mentioned earlier about some thinning or clearcutting is a good idea in some of our local legislative bodies. 8) 8) 8)
Frank Pender

crtreedude

Perhaps just pruning would work - just remove the limb that writes and signs the new laws...
So, how did I end up here anyway?

IL Bull

Our governer Rod thinks Illinois is a suberb of Chicago.
He doesn't even stay in the mansion in Springfield but he keeps it fully staffed.
Case Skid Steer,  Ford Backhoe,  Allis WD45 and Burg Manual Sawmill

Kirk_Allen

Dont even get me started on the residence issue in the Mansion.   One of our neighbors growing up is the Mansion Manager and lets just say she is on the edge of quiting her job and going public over the waste this man is guilty of.

Empty Gov. Residence.
Full time Chef who HAS to be there EVERY DAY of the week.
Full time kitchen staff to support the Chef
Full time 24/7 State Police detail - for an empty Mansion
Full time made service
Full time Butlers (2)

This guy needs to be removed from office.  The things he does are bordering criminal IMHO >:(

Corley5

I fully understand waste in state govt as I've been a state employee for sometime but probably not for much longer.  My position is being cut for the next two years due to lack of funding but there is money for a multi million dollar pocket park in Detroit >:( >:( ::)  You can tell where the most votes come from :(  To get around the lack of state foresters look into the NRCS.  They have forest management programs too
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

crtreedude

Kirk,

Don't forget the power of the press. Reporters are always looking for a story. This sounds like a good one.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Kirk_Allen

Once I have all my ducks in a row I plan on speaking with a local reporter.  Sad part of that is I also have to research the stinking reporters to ensure the story is presented in a fasion that will help the land owners and not twisted to support the Gov.

crtreedude

Yes - that is true. So much for fair and balanced, eh?
So, how did I end up here anyway?

CHARLIE

Property tax is so bogus anyway. The politicians can claim they reduce your property tax and then let the tax assessor reevaluate your property so you pay more in property tax than before they reduced it.  Confusing.......
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Kirk_Allen

Well I have to say things in Illinois are worse than people realize.  A few years ago our OTHER cooked Gov. repealed the gas tax becuase they had a surplus from the high gas prices.

This Gov has done nothing, thus we have a HUGE surplus from gas tax.  The point?

I have been trying everyday to get a hold of our Forester and Friday was told he wont be back until Monday.  Now I was told to call around 8 in the morning each day this week and I should catch him. After expressing my concern for not being able to reach him the truth came out. 

He wont be in until Monday because that is when he gets his weekly fuel allocation.  He gets 3/4 of a tank a week.  The Gov has stipped there budget so bad that they are operating on shoe strings. 

Charlie I hear you on the tax issue.  When they promoted the state lottery they said a percentage was going to go directly to the eduction fund.  The lottery passed, a portion of the revenues goes directly to the educational fund and..................................they terminated the normal education funding because they now get that money from the lottery.  So much for the lottery HELPING in our state education.

Parents, ITS YOUR JOB TO EDUCATE YOUR CHILDREN. RAISE THEM UP IN THE LORD! 

OK, Im done ranting.


crtreedude

Kirk,

My family had a rule when we were in Missouri. Never do anything because the government would support you. For example, we didn't raise wheat, etc. because it was subsidized. We grew vegetables because the market was in control.

The problem with anything the government does is that you can be ruined because another group takes over and changes the rules.

As far as education, back East, they were paying about 8,000 USD per child per year for education - and not getting much for it. I figured at that level, you could have class rooms of the size of 20, and have two teachers paid at 60,000 each - and 40,000 USD left to pay for classroom materials (or perhaps the mortgage on a house so the kids could be educated in their neighborhood) 8,000 per child is a huge number. If anyone wants to explain this number to me, I will be all ears.

Our daughter was homeschooled most of the time - didn't seem to hurt her. She is finishing up a Phd in Bio-Physics. She did spend the last few years in High School just to make sure the colleges would want her.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Frank_Pender

Tye ten grand here in the Peoples Republic of Oregon and I was part of the system for 30 years with no help in the classroom and 35 kids. :)


Woops, getting really away from the main issue.  Sorry Kirk.  It just goes to show this kind of problem is widespread across all government involved areas.
Frank Pender

Kirk_Allen

No apology need Frank.  My Great Grandfather was the Dean of Westfield College just south of me, My grandfather on my moms side was a Dental Prof. at Northwestern and retired at 86 yrs old, my Grandmother on my Dads side was a school teacher in the two room school house for 40 years, My dad is a retired Teacher, My broher is a High School teacher, and .......................................I teach fire departments :D

I Know all to well what our teachers face today.  It sucks.

My Dad retired after 34 years because of one incident that broke the straw.  He had a student come to class with one of those long spike starched hair doos with all different colors of hair.  When he came into class acting all cocky my Dad told him that his Hair realy looks stupid. 

The kid went home and told his parents that my Dad said HE WAS STUPID.  Parents filed a complaint, the principal came down to his class and asked him WHY he said that.  He didnt even have the decensy to ask if it was true or not.  He just took the parents side.  Before my dad could even explain the situation he was told he is going to have to provide a formal apology to the kid and his parents .  My dad told him to take the job and shove it.  That was the last day in the classroom for one of the best teachers that school had ever seen.

To this day I meet folks who had my Dad as a teacher and eveyone talks about how great he was.  What is so unique with that is the other teachers in my family.  Just last week I met a 80 year old man at the hardware store and after a breif conversation the subject of people impacting there lives came up and this guy mentions the old dean from the westfiedl college.

He said: "This was before you time son and since the school burned to the ground many years ago you may not even know there was a college in that little town of westfield but the dean of that school, Silven was his first name, dont remember his last name, Im getting old, well any way he that man sat me down one day and set me straight on a few things and it was the best thing anyone has ever done for me."

Can we say goose bumps.  When I told him it that Silvin Dawson was my Great Grandfather he said, yeh, Dawson, that was his last name!  We ended up talking for over an hour standing in the middle of the hardware store. 

Teachers Good Teachers have a huge impact on our society and all too often they are taken advantage of by the system. 

Many more tails to tell about teachers but I think we can all agree, the system is broke, even though its the best system in the world. 

Frank_Pender

You got it, Kirk.  Juste yesterday I met with a couple that are "My Kids".   There is a very good possibility I will be leasing them a building so that he can have a home for his thriving electircal business.   He, his wife and three little critters troured the building later yesterday and they all enjoyed the site.   I told him I could likely give him the first months rent free for the minor maintainence work.   8) 8)

   "MY KIds" know there are some fringe benefits, even after the seventh grade. ;D
Frank Pender

crtreedude

Kirk,

I would agree with you with everything you said - except about it being the best. Perhaps we should stop thinking of ourselves in such glowing terms and we might actually do something to fix it. It is the teams that think they are the best who get whipped. I would tend to agree that the USA is one of the greatest countries in the world, if not the greatest, but the education system is not. Just look at the test scores. (I am not sure you meant to say it was, if so, pardon my lack of comprehension.)

I think the point to the thread could well be how those in power forget the important things. School educators forget the most important thing is educating the kids... not making them feel good about themselves.

I am not trying to be negative about the USA, but I just came from a trip of not seeing it for 15 months. My friends, what I saw through third world eyes isn't pretty. I saw people who had so much more than the people I am around everyday complaining because they didn't have the latest gadget.

One of the things I am seeing more and more is the apathy in politics. No one assumes there is anything that can be done. It isn't true. Just a couple of things come to mind.

1. The most powerful union there is is the teachers union. Imagine if they met with the idea of figuring out how to fix the public school system - instead of better wages, etc.

2. I think the small property owner would make a very good PAC - it would be huge. Imagine if the private property owners banding together like senior citizens do. I think you would have some pretty scared politicians.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Kirk_Allen

crtreedude,
The system I am referring to is our system of Government.  We have the power to make change, although that can sometimes seem impossible.

I don't think its the educators that forgot what is important.  Its the administrations of those educators.  Its those administrators that stopped all score keeping at ball games, as all the kids are winners and there should never be a loser.............WRONG! 

"I am not trying to be negative about the USA, but I just came from a trip of not seeing it for 15 months. My friends, what I saw through third world eyes isn't pretty. I saw people who had so much more than the people I am around everyday complaining because they didn't have the latest gadget."

Having been in MANY third world countries for months at a time I have to say, what I saw wasn't pretty.  I saw people who had so much potential who simply complained because no one was helping them or that others had more than they did. 

crtreedude, familiarity breeds contempt.  I don't know the system you have down there but if I understand most of what I read you are able to capitalize on quite a bit down there and that is probably because of what you have learned here in the US and its system. 

The very things or groups here in the US that could make change are no different than in other countries.  It takes a person with Vision and willingness to stick there neck out and take a chance.  The very system we have in the US teaches that like no other country.  Name one other country that more folks from all over the world are trying to get to than the US. 

Sure we have our downsides or pitfalls but to think for a minute we are not the best would bing on a mindset to settle for less, which seems to be what I saw in most third world countries.  I know that some times taking the position of "being the best" is done with arrogance and it is the arrogance that has to be changed or corrected, not the striving to be the best and stay the best.

Ron Wenrich

Governments have used taxation as a way of getting the masses to do what it wants for eons.  Having a reduced tax rate for managed lands isn't new in many states.  

In PA, we have the Clean and Green statutes.  That's where they give you a reduced rate if you promise not to develop your land.  No management needed.  But, those lands can be put into development if the back taxes are paid.  

Property tax has been proven to be the most reliable funding source.  The problem is that everyone figures the other guy should be paying it.  Some guys can weasel out of it, some can't.  The loopholes have been put there by those with money.  Money is what moves government, not logic.

PA is trying to get meaningful property tax reform.  One outfit wants to ban all property tax and put a 6% sales tax on everything except medical expenses.  This includes all services.  The only problem is that it will fall about $5 billion short.

You can rant and rave to your reps all you want, but if there ain't a check in your hand, they won't listen.  Look at the PACs in your state.  Our legislators have to disclose who gives them money.  The PACs have to disclose who they give to and who gives to them.  Some really disgusting numbers when you dig through it.  Utilities, insurance companies, and attorneys seem to be the biggest greasers.  

You think you can change the system?  The last time it was changed was in the '60s and that was by going to the streets and demonstrating.  Sometimes a lot worse.  It was the only time that the government has paid any attention to anyone.  99% of all incumbents get re-elected.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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