Question for welders and Builders

[Radar67]

Hello all,
     I'm about to order the material to build my saw trailer. My question is, what size channel should I use? I'm thinking about 4", would that be adequate? My Oscar 28 weighs about 600 pounds with rails, counter weights and all. My design is for a 16 foot frame cross braced every 3 feet. I will place leveling jacks every 4 feet. The width will be 31 inches. Any suggestions before I get started?

[Fla._Deadheader]

Box tubing. Channel has "Flex".

[Dan_Shade]

i used 2x6 11gauge tubing for mine, I probably should have used 1/4" tubing  my deck is about 18' long or so, and I have 20' angle iron overhanging the ends.  I also used 2x2 tubing for my "log deck", and have some 2" angle in there as well.

I have 6 jacks, which seems to be plenty, i'm not real sure how many you would really need.   I have a cross brace every 4 feet on mine. 

I'd strongly consider going to 6" tubing instead of the 4" stuff, it will be much stiffer, and the stiffer the better these saws work.

here are my photos:  https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=190

[D._Frederick]

Radar,

I used the lightest 6 inch channel I could get for my mill frame.

The problem I ran into with channel was that it is not straight, the two lengths of 20 footer of hot roll that I bought were crooks in lumber terms. Placing a wire from end to end, they had 3/8 inch deviation. I checked with the steel supplies and they said that was within spec. I used them, but had to work around this problem.

I don't know how tubing is, but I would sure look at it very close before I signed the receipt.

If you are going to use tubing to support logs, get something larger than 2 X 2 inch, the weight of the log can bend it.

[Sprucegum]

2x6x1/4 tubing would be very sturdy....and heavy. The price gets a lot heavier too ;D

But if I had the dollars I'd go heavy - when you put it in place it stays in place.

Disclaimer: I have never built a mill trailer but I have seen some heavy iron

[jpad_mi]

Good looking track/trailer Dan!

I used 3x6x3/16 tubing for the perimeter and 2x4x3/16 for the cross bunks (at roughly 32inch spacing if I remember).  I'm glad I bought the bulk of the steel back when it was only $0.38/lb for the brand-spanking new stuff. I have three jack stands per side like Dan.

[Sunfield Hardwood]

Radar, I'd vote for tube also. Lay it all out on a flat floor, use a level and shims to make sure it's flat. Tack all the parts together, remeasure to make sure it's right then go around the thing welding an inch here and then an inch on opposite side, even heavy tube will warp like crazy if welded solid in one spot all at one time, good luck, sounds like a good plan

[Radar67]

I want to thank everyone for replying.

Tubing sounds like the way to go. What does everyone think of 2x4 3/16 tubing? 6 inches sounds like overkill. Realistically the trailer would only have 4600 pounds on it max while sitting in place. I expect to be able to cut 26 inch logs, 14 feet long as the largest with the Oscar 28 (Checked weight with Live oak that size, a little over 3900 pounds). Still, being realistic, the average log I cut would probably be be more in the 18 inch range, 10 to 12 feet long. (the 1000 pound range)

I know bigger is better, but not always feasible. I welcome your comments.

[Dan_Shade]

do you have a bunch of 2x4 stuff laying around?  another thing is if you aren't careful, your jacks (I'm assuming that you are going to use trailer jacks) won't clear the saw. I have two jacks on the outside of the frame, my saw will not pass them with the handles in place.

My sawframe needs outriggers, truth be told, it's pretty wobbly when it's up high.  Mine is definately heavy, the cost is why I didn't use 1/4" tubing, i have about $800 or so in materials in my frame, my dad is an extremely good fabricator, and did a lot of the critical stuff, like welding a bit at a time to keep the steel from pulling and warping too bad.  I used a 4' level and my eyeball to get everything straight.

Another thing to consider is adding bunks or something close enough together to allow you to saw short stuff, there's a niche market for this stuff, I can saw down to like a foot on mine

[Fla._Deadheader]

Think bouncing down them nice smooth flat roads. 6" X 3/16ths would be as light as I would dare to go.

[dail_h]

   26" x 14 ft lands pretty hard when you make the first few turns

[Dan_Shade]

yeah, my 2x2 11 gauge parts of my saw are starting to belly, i see them getting plated down the road.

[Brian_Rhoad]

If you are welding a track onto the frame you have to bow the steel frame so when the welds cool it will be flat. I built a 24' track for my Breezewood mill out of 3 1/2" square tubing that is 3/16" thick. I had a 4" crown in the middle of the rail when i welded it. When it was done and unclamped it was perfectly straight. If I wouldn't of bowed the rail it would have looked like a banana!

[Radar67]

Okay, everyone has sold me on the idea of using 6 inch tube. Now I have to rework my drawings.  :(

Brian, how did you get the 4 inch crown in the rail?

My plan is to build the frame from (now 2x6 3/16) tubing, then add my factory rails on either end and adding angle to fill in the gap.

Dan, I like the idea about outriggers. I'm thinking place riggers on the side opposite where I'll be walking and mounting the jacks directly to the frame on the walking side. I noticed the cable winch on your rig, how did you mount it to keep it out of the way of the saw? Or is it removable? Are you still using the factory dogs? What is the extension span on your jacks? (I looked at the 11 to 21 inch range) And, tell me more about the market for short stuff.

[Brian_Rhoad]

I used a 4" pipe under the rail in the middle and 2" pipe 1/2 way between the middle and each end. I laid the rail on top of the pipes and used a 4x4 post and bottle jack on each end going up to my shop ceiling under a rafter. I jacked the post up until it pushed the rail down onto the floor at each end. You must use the three peices of pipe. If you only use one in the middle it will just put a "kink" in the middle, not an even crown or arch. When you weld only weld 1" long beads and alternate sides and ends. Don't start at one end and go straight down the rail. Jump back and forth from side to side so you don't over heat the rail.

[EZ]

The second time around I used 4x8 tubing 1/4 thick. If I would build another frame it would be built just like the one I have now. Cost was big but well worth it to me.
EZ

[Dan_Shade]

i believe if you are really watchful, and attentive, and only weld a little bit at a time, you can avoid having to crown the tubing prior to welding.  I didn't do any of that with mine, and it's flat.

i welded a 2" reciever tube to the bottom of my track, and used 2" tubing to make a boom, it comes out.

I got "short" jacks from tractor supply, once again, more would be better, but that adds up too.  I really do wish I had spent the extra money for heavier tubing, I don't move my saw around, but this could eventually cause me some problems.

the hudson angle iron is metric, you may have problems getting it to match up, I got a few pieces of 1/4x2 angle and started completely over for my track, if you make me an offer, i'll hook you up with a hudson section ;)

my dog's and backstops are different, i have a few problems with mine, and am planning on swapping out to a different design, i also want to add a threaded setup to the clamp, I have a cam system now which tends to lift the cant from the bed, but that's partly a problem with my backstop too.

wood turners are where short stuff markets are.  the way I look at things, I don't want to have to say "I can't do that" if somebody wants something, so I'll do what I can to figure out how to make it happen   a trick I figured out last week was I can use an edging for a "disposable" backstop, i needed a backstop in a different place, so I C-Clamped a 2x2 scrap to the frame, and just sawed it down as I went.

[rebocardo]

6 x 3 x 1/4 rect. tubing is a common size and should be good for a trailer as long as you do not carry a lot of weight on it over the road. if you are using a 120v welder then you should go with 3/16 wall.

[Radar67]

I picked up the material for my trailer today. I went with 2x6x1/4 for the perimeter, 2x4x3/16 for the bunks (except for one, it's 2x6x1/4, the tounge mounts to it) I'll send pictures once I get started building. Thanks for all the information and help. Now that I have the 2x6 tube on hand, it is very straight, stout and strong! 8)

[sawguy21]

I suggest drilling drain holes in the tubing as I saw problems with rust building on the inside to the point the trailer was no longer safe to tow, especially with a 2 million dollar helicopter perched on it ;D I have never built a large trailer but like channel better for this reason.

[mometal77]

I thought i would get back on this site and see what everyone is up too.
I am going to trade two cord of cut firewood for a sixty foot mobile home trailer.  The guy built a new house and tore it down over property taxes too high.  Not a bad deal considering steel prices.  It doesnt come with an axle but will be easy to cut the thing in half and have a 30 movable trailer for the mobile dimension.
bobby

[Furby]

Bobby,
Check out this thread:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=14452.0

[Radar67]

Attached are a couple of pictures of progress so far.





Next step is springs, axles, and coupler. Then the jacks and winch.

[Dan_Shade]

nice

[DanG]

Lookin' good, Radar! 8) 8) That's comin' right along.

How come all your pics are at night....oh yeah.  You're still working for a living. :-\ ;D :D :D :D

[Radar67]

DanG, Some of us have to do that. :D This was actually a dusk, the flash made it look darker. I did find that welding at night was a lot easier (I could see the material better). Checked it with a string today and had no bow or sag, the 2x6 is straight as an arrow. (As you can see, it is only supported on the ends, should hold up well with axles under it.)

[Sprucegum]

Nice pics.
It looks like you know what you are doing in the welding department

Have you determined how far back to place your axles?
I have found that, if the load is fairly balanced, 6" back of center gives you a nice tongue weight no matter what size trailer you are building.

Do as ya mighta ;D

[Radar67]

Sprucegum,
     I honestly have to say that this is the first time I have welded. I took my time and paid attention to what I was doing. As for the design and layout, I have many years of experience in the construction field. I have been studying on axle placement, based on the extra material up front for the tongue, I plan to measure 12 inches back from the center of the frame and start playing with the balance and tongue weight from there. Probably use a 4 inch pipe for my balance point and a simple bathroom scale to judge tongue weight. I'm shooting for about 100 - 150 pounds on the tongue. Thanks for the advice.

Stew

[Dan_Shade]

tongue weight should be 10% of the trailer weight

make sure to account for the sawhead on there too.

[Radar67]

Thanks Dan,
     The material weight is 656 pounds, the saw and rails 550, I figured 1300 pounds for complete set up. My target should meet the 10%.

Stew

[Dan_Shade]

did you find angle to match up to your track?  i dont think 1/4x2 will match up to it quite right, but it's easy enough to completely redo it with 1/4x2

[Radar67]

I double checked all the measurements on my factory rails and standard 2x2x1/4 angle matched it perfectly. I remembered you said it was metric, so I checked everything out before I got my material. My rails are a year old, I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Maybe they (Hudson) changed their suppliers at some point.

[Dan_Shade]

that's quite possible.  mine was off just a bit so I redid the whole top.

that's a quite nice looking track you are making there.  I really wish I had used heavier tubing for mine, oh well, if it gets trashed, i can make another one, I suppose.

[Radar67]

I have a question about axles. The axle stubs I plan to use measure 1 3/4 inch square where they fit into the axle tube, my problem is I can't find any square tube to fit unless I go with 2x2x1/8. I don't trust that size for a 3500 pound axle. I'm thinking use the thin tube and insert it into a piece of 2 1/2x2 1/2x1/4 tube. Does this sound like it would work? Does anyone have any alternative suggestions?

The axle will be about 36 inches to the start of the spindle shafts. No one around here will make a custom axle. Thanks.

Stew

[woodbowl]

I have a question about axles. The axle stubs I plan to use measure 1 3/4 inch square where they fit into the axle tube, my problem is I can't find any square tube to fit unless I go with 2x2x1/8. I don't trust that size for a 3500 pound axle. I'm thinking use the thin tube and insert it into a piece of 2 1/2x2 1/2x1/4 tube. Does this sound like it would work? Does anyone have any alternative suggestions?

Stew, the term used is "mechanical tubing"  I have a set of cad digger plans and they use the round stock. I understand that it is also availible in the square as well. The same type situation is when we slide a 2x2 in a trailer hitch. That is an off standard wall thickness.

[Radar67]

Stew, the term used is "mechanical tubing" I have a set of cad digger plans and they use the round stock. I understand that it is also availible in the square as well. The same type situation is when we slide a 2x2 in a trailer hitch. That is an off standard wall thickness.

WoodBowl,
     Any recommendations on where one would find "mechanical Tubing"? I can get square or round axle stubs, but both measure 1 3/4.

Stew

[woodbowl]

I was told that it is availible from a good steel supplier. It may have to be special ordered, not sure. Have you searched the net?

[Radar67]

I was told that it is availible from a good steel supplier. It may have to be special ordered, not sure. Have you searched the net?

I have searched the net. I'm dealing with a metal foundry and machine shop. Spoke with them today, they don't carry anything that works. The net was not helpful either.

I'm still thinking cut a sleeve out of the smaller tubing, weld it to the stub axle, then use the larger tubing for the overall length.

Stew

[floyd]

trlr will not only flex going down the road but frame is going to have lots of stress from  sawing as well.

[woodbowl]

If the new metal is bowed, it should sag when on it's own wheels. Jacking up both ends when leveling, insures a level bed, according to Cooks saw.

[Sprucegum]

Your axle stubs do not really need to fit inside your axle.
Youcan weld a butt plate to your stub and weld the butt plate to your axle, that's how they make drop axles.

You can also drill a hole in your butt plate to snug fit your axle stub to help keep it straight.
3/4 inch plate should do the trick for 3500 pounds.

[Radar67]

Sprucegum,
     You are basically saying that I could mount the stub axle to the outside of my square tube?
__________
|                 |
|_________|_
          |_____|xxxx

Something like this?

Thanks,

Stew

[leweee]

Remember to have a few degrees of" toe in" on those stub axles when you weld them on....makes the trailer tow straight....too much will cause excessive tire wear...no "toe in"or negative " toe in"and the trailer will wag like a dogs tail.  Don't ask me how I found this out.  ;D

[Radar67]

Leweee, thanks for that information, I had not considered the toe in before now.

Stew

[Sprucegum]

I have seen it done that way, and it works but it looks kind of "unprofessional". What I had in mind is:
             p
     axle[L ] stub
             a
             t
             e
with lots of weld around the "L" the plate can be larger than the axle by enough diameter to allow room for a fillet weld.

OR
you can insert the stub through a hole in the plate and trim the plate to fit inside your large-diameter axle, leaving enough plate sticking out to make a fillet weld onto the end of the axletube

Have I confused the issue enough yet? :P
       

[Radar67]

I think I got it now, lay the plate flat on the bench, stand the stub axle up on the plate and weld the fire out of her, the weld the plate to the axle tube. Or, punch a hole in the plate, slide stub through, and weld plate on axle tube end.  ;D

[Sprucegum]

 8) 8)Yep 8) 8)

[woodbowl]

...no "toe in"or negative " toe in"and the trailer will wag like a dogs tail.  Don't ask me how I found this out. 

leweee,  how did you find that out?  ;D ;D   Radar, where did you get your stub axels? Are they new or from something else?

[Radar67]

Woodbowl,
     I'm ordering the stub axles from northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company. They have two ratings, 2000 or 3500 pounds. Either square or round.

[woodbowl]

I guess it is a lot cheaper to weld your own rather than buy already assembled axels. I should drag out my catalog but I'll ask anyway. Are they 5 lug or like a moble home hub? How much are they?

[Radar67]

Woodbowl,
     The stub axles are 27.99 for the pair (3500 lbs), the hub set is 52.99 for the pair, 5 bolt 4 1/2 pattern. I would much rather buy the axle already assembled, but no one sells an axle the length I need (38 inches), the shortest one I could find was 48 inches, just a little too wide for my 31 inch trailer.

[woodbowl]

but no one sells an axle the length I need (38 inches), the shortest one I could find was 48 inches, just a little too wide for my 31 inch trailer.

You can cut out a section, clean it up and clamp it in a piece of angle to weld back up. It sounds like you need both the stub axels and the hub set to make a pair. Is this right? That would be around $81 for one axel. 

[Radar67]

You can cut out a section, clean it up and clamp it in a piece of angle to weld back up. It sounds like you need both the stub axels and the hub set to make a pair. Is this right? That would be around $81 for one axel.

That is correct. A 3500 pound axle (71 1/4 inches Long) is 64.99, plus the price of the hub set. (105.99) and it still has to be cut. I can save the difference in shipping costs (30.00), add the metal myself (gonna have to weld either way) and still save money.

[woodbowl]

Ouch !!!  I guess I'm just a cheeeep skate. It just seems like with all the old cars and junkyards around, there aught to be a better way to build a homemade trailer. I don't like moble home axels, actually it's the tires I don't like. They don't last very long and are an odd ball size when you need a fix. I'm looking for that vehicle model that lends itself to easy trailer making.

[Radar67]

I hear ya, unfortunately, all the junkyards around here don't have anything over 10 years old. They sell all the old stuff for scrap. Back when I was in my motor head stage, a friend built a rail dragster (drill stem) with the front end of an old VW Beetle. Parts were easy to find then. I thought about the straight axle (well, it has a little bit of an offset drop) from the rear of an old Ford Escort, but a) can't find one and b) looks like it would be extremly hard to chop off to the right length. I used to enjoy going to the salvage yards to look for parts, now you have to know what you are looking for and they won't let you pull it, they have to.  :( Also, most salvage yards here have formed a sort of network for prices. It is almost as cheap to go to the parts store and buy remanufactured parts for what they want for used. I'll use a recent endeavor as an example. I wanted to purchase a GMC 671 Blower for my V8 S10 pickup. At the salvage yard, the core was anywhere from $200 to $400. By the time I had it worked and overhauled, it would have been close to $1000 invested. For $300 more I could have bought a kit with everything I needed (this kit included a new blower and intake manifold). Needless to say, the old S10 is still sitting there with just a V8 in it.  ;) I'll quit rambling now.  ;D

[Rockn H]

Radar, I just made an axle the way Sprucegum described using the spindles off of a chevy truck.  It's for my Father in law.  He had the cutoff spindles and hubs ,but no axle tube.  After a trip to the fab shop I found out that there is no standard pipe or square tubing with an inside ID that will fit the chevy spindles.  So I plated it.  Most trailer spindles are sized to fit standard pipe, but sometimes you have to use what you have.  I miss the old Honda CRX.  They had a straight square tube rear axle that was hung with a leaf spring suspension.  It just screamed utility axle. ;D

[woodbowl]

Radar, I just made an axle the way Sprucegum described using the spindles off of a chevy truck.  It's for my Father in law.  He had the cutoff spindles and hubs ,but no axle tube. 

Pics, pics ................we need some pictures of that! If you can't, please go into a little detail of how you went about it, especially the alignment techniques. Thanks

[Murf]

Find a Chrysler minivan (tragic wagon) that was in a head on wreck, the back axles in them are real easy to make a trailer with.

Hydraulic brakes even, for those so inclined.  ;)

[jrokusek]

Find a Chrysler minivan (tragic wagon) that was in a head on wreck, the back axles in them are real easy to make a trailer with.

Hydraulic brakes even, for those so inclined.  ;)

Allright......I've been following this thread with lots of curiosity since I'm in need of an inexpensive trailer too.  I want to build a 10' to 12' long utility trailer since my homemade mill should be able to cut 12' logs.  I want to be able to haul at least 3500 lbs and would really like those hydraulic brakes! 

I think it's beyond the scope of this thread to try to educate me about about surge brakes and trailer building....so......can someone recommend a good trailer building book to me?  Heck I'm willing to buy a good book or a WELL DESIGNED set of plans if someone has them!  The sawmill building book I bought off Ebay was a bit lacking....some of the things this guy did were more redneck than what I designed.  Anyway....I'm looking for a decent book or a set of GOOD plans and I'm willing to PAY for them.  I'm guessing that there are others like me who are quietly lurking.  Anyone have any suggestions??

Jim

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Do you HONESTLY think a book has more info than this FORUM ???

  IF ya cain't larn it hyarr Ya Cain't larn it nowherr.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

  Around hyarr, if ya axe fer a measuremint, ya git inches, feet, meters, pulgadas and all sorts of kinds.  : : : ;)

[Rockn H]

Luckily, as usuall, I haven't finished the axle yet. :D  Here's some pics.  I alligned the spindle with the axle by using a degree finder and alot of turning. ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Didja leave room for da inner bearing race ??

[Rockn H]

The pics aren't that good are they? :D  There's even about a 1/2" for the wheel seal left sticking out. ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

  OOOH TAY, Buckwheat  ;D :D :D :D :D

[jpad_mi]

Great start on the trailer. Looks like quality work. You may want to check out the following website for a complete axle assy. He'll make up custom size axles for no additional cost and the price is better than buying the components:

http://abctrailerparts.com/axles.html

[Radar67]

Thanks for the info jpad, I'll check him out when I build my logging trailer. I have already got my parts together for the current trailer. More pictures to come soon.

[Radar67]

The trailer part of my saw trailer is finished. Now I have to get my outriggers attached, my loading winch (need to attach), log ramp (already built, just need to attach), safety chains, lights, and attach my saw rails. And, a good coat of enamel paint, thinking about yellow.







I toed the axle stubs in 1 degree on each side as suggested and the trail pulls just fine. Only thing is, it's hard to see the tail end. I need to come up with a way to install spotter poles when I'm pulling it (with lights on top for night driving).

Stew

[Fla._Deadheader]

As long as ya can't see it, it's right where it's supposed to be  : : ;D ;D

[Radar67]

Pictures of the most recent additions.







Stew

[sprucebunny]

Do your jacks slide in and out or pivot ??? I'm thinking of adding jacks or feet of some sort to my mill.

[Radar67]

Do your jacks slide in and out or pivot ??? I'm tinkin of adding jacks or feet of some sort ta dis yooper mill.

They do both. Dan_Shade suggested using 2 inch receiver tubes to mount them with and they work great.

Stew

[Radar67]

Got my saw on the trailer today. I was starting to have withdrawals, so I cut some wood.  ;D



Stew

[rbarshaw]

Those outriggers look painful to me :P , how do you push your mill thru the log and not bust your shins ?

[Radar67]

The outriggers could be shin busters, but they only stick out about 15 inches. The stability is the key thing I wanted with the outriggers. They will take a little getting used to, it should only take once or twice to "learn".  :D :D :D

[Dan_Shade]

realistically, i'll bet you only need the outrigger on the backside of the saw, where you really won't walk anyway.  having the track flip over and toss the saw would be the beginning of bad things!

[Radar67]

Dan, I thought about just putting the outriggers on the back side, but after reading about your trouble with the jacks being in the way of the saw, I decided to out rig both sides. I have found they make it much easier to level the track. Also, wanted to say thanks for the idea of the receiver tubes, they work real well.

Stew

[Dan_Shade]

did you put levelers/rollers on your frame?

I really need to do that to mine, it's a major pain to move a big log 8" down the track, or to lift and block a big log up.

Did you put outriggers like that at the front and the back?  I couldn't tell from the picture.

[Radar67]

I have not put levelers and rollers on the log deck.....YET! ;D It is in the works though. I was ready to get the saw back into operation.

Yes, I put outriggers on the front and back and in the center. One of my earlier pictures should show them.