Doyle vs International

[jokers]

Hi Guys,

I need some expert opinions on the difference that Doyle rule vs International is going to make(money for me) when I bring a bunch of 20" or less(mostly 14"-16") hard maple logs to the mill. These are beautiful logs, clear and straight, but some of them need to be removed or I`d let them mature.

The buyer uses the Doyle rule but offered to use the International if I prefer, but offered that everything would come out about the same in the end. What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance for opinions offered.

Russ

[maple flats]

The break even point is 25", under 25" international will scale higher and over 25" doyle scales higher. At 25" they are equal.  You as seller  would do better on international if few or none are over 25" small end. Good luck!

[Ron Wenrich]

A log or tree just has so much value.  If you use a scale that doesn't have as many bd ft, then you pay more $/Mbf.  If it has more volume, then the price goes down.  In the end, it usually works out the same.

[Mike_Barcaskey]

jokers, what Ron said. I like to use International all the time, just cause the Timber Market Reports I get use International. If the buyer wants to use Doyle, the pbf goes up.
first you got to come up for a total price for your logs, thats what you want to sell for to make you happy.
then figure what the pbf would be under International or Doyle, so you go in with all the knowledge you need

BTW, just got done reading the MS361 muffler mod thread over at AS, nice to see you here too.

[jokers]

Mike,

Thanks for the welcome here!

Thanks to all for your opinions.

Russ

[Jeff]

Yea Russ, Welcome to the forum. How the heck did you get 500+ posts already?  ;)

[Mike_Barcaskey]

Russ, you been here longer than I. It's just nice to see a familiar face on a forum other than AS (as  smiley_argue01 smiley_argue01 as AS has been lately)

[jokers]

Yea Russ, Welcome to the forum. How the heck did you get 500+ posts already?  ;)

I`m a windbag,! :D

[jokers]

Russ, you been here longer than I. It's just nice to see a familiar face on a forum other than AS (as  smiley_argue01 smiley_argue01 as AS has been lately)

True Mike, there are certain areas of that forum where I choose not to hang out. It`s true that we all need to vent periodically But I can`t live on the negative energy.

I see that Marky and yourself are offering an interesting tutorial on trapping. Too bad it has to be relegated to the kitchen so that noone is inadvertantly offended. :

Jeff and his assistants run a clean ship here.

Russ

[Hoop]

You have some very expensive high grade logs and you can only sell them once.   I don't know how the buying procedures go in your area, but if they were my logs, they would NEVER go to a mill until I knew exactly how much money they would fetch.........before they left the landing.  The buyer would come to my property, scale the logs, and offer a TOTAL PRICE for the logs where they are.

IMHO, the scale stick used means very little.  The total price means everything.  Delivering your logs to a mill means you're basically saying "I'll take whatever you decide to pay".

A neighbor of mine logged off 40 acres of mature sugar maple.  He did it in winter so there would be no possibility of the logs staining.   He had 5 different buyers come to his property, scale the high grade logs and quote him a price.  The prices ranged from $86,000 to $118,000.


If there is only 1 log purchasing entity in your vicinity, obviously you'll have to take whatever they give you. 

I"m totally convinced the hard & fast rule for 1 time high grade log sales is to get as many quotes as possible........before your logs leave YOUR premises.

[jokers]

Hi Hoop,

I appreciate your input.

The log buyers will come to the site but since there are only a small number, I feel like a schmuck for having any of them come out. Good point on your part, none the less.

There are four log buyers that are within a relatively short distance. In the mean time I am just trying to utilize a couple of blowdowns(2-3 logs each) and a few more that should come out to let the better trees mature. Quite a few that I can get three 10'4" logs out of before the first branch.

Russ

[beenthere]

Russ
You can ask for the board foot volume of both scales. That way you will know if there is any difference.

Also, you can easily measure the small end diameter inside the bark, and determine the Int'l (or Doyle) scale yourself. The Int'l will be the closest to what the log will yield (it won't estimate how much trouble getting that volume will be for the small logs ). After that, calculating what each is paying per bd ft will be easy for you to do, regardless of the scale or method they use.  On some logs, there may be scale reductions due to sweep, or rot found or estimated to be in the log. Having this information available will help you make estimates and decisions preparing other logs for sale and what to expect for payment.

[Jeff]

If you dont have the scales Russ, use just a ruler and then use the forum calcs. The log volume calc as well as the tree volume and tree value, all compute in doyle international and scribner for comparison.

[jayfed]

Just wondering - Our logs over here require 6"of 'trim' on random (10' +) length logs and 8" trim on the 8' logs.

Is 4" the standard log trim in your area?

Also a veneer buyer might accept a 5-7' veneer log. Might one of your buyers be willing to do that?

The last year I worked at Mead's woodyard processor, we sold 40MBF (Scribner 'C') of shorts. And lots of large rejected pulpwood because of the 3" of birds-eye 'meat' under the bark.  Used for cue sticks.  A buyer came around once a month with his 2 axle trailer.

Yooper-at-large

[Ron Wenrich]

There used to be a market for stave logs.  These were 5' white oak.  There are specialty markets in some areas.

As for trim allowance, that all depends on the veneer buyer.  We keep the logs long enough so that they can trim logs back to what they need to clean them up.  We sell more veneer that way.

10' veneer seems to be a popular length, but there are other lengths that are acceptable.  Depends on markets.

[jokers]

Hi jayfed,

Yes, 4" is the minimum standard trim with the local buyers that I know of. 7' is the smallest length log they will take, but one buyer may take a diameter as low as 8" from what I understand. I can`t imagine bringing something like that to the mill except on a clear cut.

10' does seem to be the desired standard length with a premium paid for 14-16' logs. The obvious problem is that the long logs better be perfect.

Russ

[SwampDonkey]

4", 6" and 9" trim up here also on veneer and 4",5"and 6" on logs, 9" trim on cedar shingle wood. They buy 4 foot 4" (hard and soft maple) veneer up here at Calley and Currier in Patton, Maine.

[4str]

Jokers,

One tip, one trick...

Trick first - to convert price quoted in one scale to another:

Volume of log _{in scale you have}
_________________________     x Price _{in scale you have}  =  Price _{in scale you want}

Volume of log _{in scale you want}


One tip:

Keep one hand on your wallet at all times.

I know Oswego County well. There are a few buyers that will treat you fairly every time (and I emphasize a few), there are many that should be avoided at all costs. It's the wild west up there - seriously. Of all the counties in NY (or any other state) that I've done work in, I've yet to come across another with such a high concentration of, well, less than estimable timber buyers.

This is based on 20 years experience in your county.

Good luck!