Larger equipmnet, smaller woodlots

whitepine · October 13, 2005, 02:12:42 PM

Hi I live in an area of about even land ownership of government and private ownership and have bought and sold timber for years. In big tracts of land the big iron is the only thing reasonable but on private sales one is starting to see a market for something that could go in cut 20 acres and get out the big guys cannot make that pay. I have noticed in my lifetime the scandinavian countries are way ahead of us in the big and small timber harvesting and from what I can see is we are about to get a huge change in timber proceesing. For big iron look at Ponsee but the exciting is the small processors. Expect that soon the value of any biomass will make recovery profitable. I am talking about using tops limbs etc for fuels. New in scandinavia is a plow that lifts the stump so that wood can also be recovered they have recovered the limbs tops for years. Expect in the future a logging site will be picked clean. John Deere has developed a bundler that makes budles of anything for heat power generators (talking big iron here big $) but the writing is on the wall. With the use of wood products for heat/power generation there will be money there for biomass and that will make smaller operations profitable again and machinery dealers will make products for the market. Something of interest a coal fired heat/power generator has to treat its ash as hazardous waste and pay big to have it shipped to hazardous waste site, if over 50 % wood is mixed it's waste ash is not considered hazardous and can actually be sold as fertilizer. One can see what that means.

Ron Wenrich · October 14, 2005, 10:43:14 AM

I will agree that the Scandanavian countries are ahead of us in the forest resource field. So are a lot of countries. But, I do have to disagree about the use of biomass.

From a management standpoint, there will be a loss of nutrients if you do wholesale harvesting of biomass. That will lead to lowering yields and quicker rotations. Most soil nutrient value is in the fines and small limbs. Harvesting biomass would consume a lot of that material.

I was in the biomass field back when it was a new thing in the late '70s. We could not compete with coal. Anytime we found a project, coal would undercut us. Then natural gas came along and undercut us. Hydrogen is on the horizon. I doubt if we beat that, either.

There was quite a bit of research done on biomass plantations. Primary species was the hybrid poplar (fast growing aspen). These plantations were going to be the salvation to our energy problems. You would simply go in and harvest biomass like you do corn. But, you had to fertilze in order to make the process work. For the reasons stated above, nothing every developed off of it.

If the timber has sufficient value, then small woodlots can be worked. The problem lies with cutting timber before it has that value. I've seen cutting sizes drop quite a bit in the past 20 years in hardwoods.

Ron Scott · October 14, 2005, 10:54:29 AM

Biomass Wood Fuel Bundle. Processed from topwood and woody debris that would normally be left on the timber harvest area. John Deere/Timberjack is producing specialized equipment for productive processing on the harvest area.

floyd · October 14, 2005, 11:50:54 AM

ron, does thr bundler look anything like a round baler?

floyd · October 14, 2005, 11:56:46 AM

whitepine, stumps have been pulled in the SE US for yrs.

One can utilize almost all slash with some marketing.

big limbs sold as cook stove wood, limbs with needles for wreaths(seasonal...duh), get a chipper and sell small limbs as mulch. etc

SwampDonkey · October 14, 2005, 03:04:55 PM

They have been talking about biomass energy in New Brunswick, but that's it. Just over in Maine at Fort Fairfield they've had a biomass plant for 15 years I think and alot of it's biomass is exported from New Brunswick in the form of chips with bark.

Up to this point in time, what Ron W writes has been pretty much the case here.

Frickman · October 14, 2005, 07:42:39 PM

What Ron W. said about the nutrient loss I've heard from a number of sources over the years, and I'll agree with him. A major forest management problem in my area is regenerating native hardwoods with the extreme deer pressure we have. As has been written on the forum before, sometimes the only way to regenerate hardwoods is to leave almost impenetrable slash on a timber harvest to discourage the deer from eating the new seedlings. Removing all the biomass and leaving the ground bare will probably just allow ferns and other undesriable species to grow.

whitepine · October 14, 2005, 08:46:50 PM

Hi I mentioned biomass as they are planning on opening two new plants in our area. A couple of questions. Deer what a pain, I wonder dont they have deer in scandinavia? what do they do? I agree it is very difficult to grow hardwoods here because of them, I planted alot and used plantskyd (scandinavian deer repelent) to poor success. Thru the years I have been approached repeatedly to grow hybrid aspen and here they are not profitable the plantations I have seen are terrible though I have heard they do well out west (Idaho). That picture of the bundle the ones I saw were 8 ft long the one in the picture looks shorter. ??? Rotation where I am is much longer than most we are only on the second cutting here however there are alot of other wood sources that have never been cut that may have potential for fuel (highland and swamp bushes). The vision I see is being able to sell anything that burns that could be bundled, an oportunity for smaller operations.

Ron Scott · October 14, 2005, 09:24:21 PM

Yes, it is best to leave a sufficient amount of the small woody debris (the fines from topwood, branches, twigs, etc.) on the harvest area to replenish soil nutrients. Don't remove it all.

"Heavy slash" is often an aesthetic issue with forest landowners and environmentalists, but the slash can and should be managed in an orderly manner for nutrient retention. Landowners sometimes need to be convinced that leaving woody debris on theit harvest area is good, especially if they have poor soils to begin with.

Frickman · October 14, 2005, 09:36:25 PM

Ron Scott,

In my area "heavy slash" is always an issue. If not with the landowners then the neighbors and general public. Many folks see either a "mess left by those dirty loggers" or "hey, lot's of easy pickin's firewood." It's very, very difficult sometimes to convince a landowner to leave the slash alone. I do my best to educate the landowners, and if they still "clean up my mess" and cause a setback to natural regeneration then that's their problem. It's a mostly free country after all.

I'm not advocating brushing up roads or leaving bent over and broken saplings. I do my best cleaning up these kinds of things. In the general harvest area though I frequentally lop tops to four to six feet above the ground, and no lower if possible.

SwampDonkey · October 15, 2005, 06:16:58 AM

After having looked after thinning on 1000's of acres, some hardwood sites, some mixed...I can say after 12 years there's hardly any slash left when it's left to rot where the tree fell. Hardwood and poplar thinnings are the creme de la creme of clean footing to thin under.

Ron Wenrich · October 15, 2005, 06:56:01 AM

Most guys are calling to cut slash down to 4'. That means to cut all those bigs tops down so that they aren't as unsightly. Most people won't object to that, since they really can't see it.

Its those monster white oak tops that are 20' high that usually bring out the howls.

timberjack240 · October 15, 2005, 07:04:20 PM

Most guys are calling to cut slash down to 4'... i call it tryin to get yurself killed with all the pressure that on the tops just so people think its looks good. actually around here its refered to as "lop the tops". thats what the forseters always say when they want em layed down to make it look better

Ron Wenrich · October 15, 2005, 07:59:37 PM

Its not only from a "look better" aspect. When you get those tops down on the floor, they decompose a lot quicker. We are looking at management in addition to aesthetics.