iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

EPA wood stoves, prices

Started by Greg, September 23, 2005, 11:32:07 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Greg

Howdy,

This year, we have decided to replace an ancient broken down cast iron stove, and invest in a newer, efficient EPA certified wood stove. The free standing stove is/will be situated in the basement of our home (2000 sq. ft) and we have burnt wood for a heat supplement in the past to reduce the amount of heat the central oil furnace has to provide. I don't expect it to be the only/primary heat source, but would like to reduce our oil use significantly.

I am one that believes if you have to pay a little more for quality, its worth it in the long run - but within reason! I am looking for wood stove opinions from those who either own one or have shopped around for one recently.

What blows my mind is the price differences out there from so many different manufacturers. For very similar looking medium sized EPA certified stove, the models range anywhere from $900 up to $2500.

On the high end there are Jotul and Lopi, among others. In the middle are Pacific Energy and Buck Stove. Closer to the "low end" are stoves from Drolet, Napolean, and Oburn. For our purposes, a blower is a must, and for other reasons I have eliminated the nice soapstone stoves.

I guess I don't understand why one model can cost 2x as much as another for what seems to be very close to the same product. The higher end stoves ARE slightly more efficient (70% vs. 63%) and do produce slightly lower emissions than the cheaper models.  But to me, thats not enough to justify a $1000 price difference.

Any advice from wood heaters here would be appreciated. Thanks,

Greg




Onthesauk

I currently have a Hearthstone which I think is a little too slow to heat up and doesn't put out quite enough heat for the size.  I've had a Vermont Casting in the last house which I think is one of my favorite stoves, (in hindsite, should have put one in this house.)  Not sure about your area, but out here we end up with a lot of good used wood stoves on Craigslist, EPA certified, folks just moving up to a new or different one.  Have seen some beautiful stoves for less then 1/3 the price of new.
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

sawdust



We get to pick up our new stove on Tuesday. We bought a Blaze King model 1107, has that there catastroughic converter and a automatic dampner. Supposed to be very effecient. We bought it at the recommendation of a few others who have them. 2200 cdn for the furnace and another 2000 for the chimney. Our house is 1300 square, we are putting the thing in the basement. www.blazeking.com

Will post progress notes including the adventure of getting it down the stairs and round the corner.

sawdust
comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable.

WH_Conley

I use an Ashley coal stove, burn wood in it, in the basement, about $600.00, as primary heat. 1300 sq ft plus basement, no problem, too hot sometimes. Being certified as a coal stove it does not have to have a catalyst, or didn't when I bought it. Stove has spring type thermostat and shaker grates. Not the prettiest stove going but I was more interested in heat than pretty, very dependable for the money.
Bill

Brucer

When I was building my house in '79, I bought a Fisher stove -- state of the art airtight in those days. I also had a forced-air electric furnace for my primary heat, so I installed the main return-air vent in the top of the wall directly beside the wood stove. The theory was that the vent would collect the hot air rising off the stove and distribute it to the rest of the house. All I had to do was leave the furnace fan running all the time.

Just one problem; those old air-tights were radiant stoves, so most of the heat radiated out into the room. All the objects in the room with a line of sight to the stove would heat up, and would in turn heat the air. Only a small portion of heated air was collected by the forced-air system. The only time we could run the stove full-time was the week or so each year when the outdoor air got down to -20. Any other time the room would quickly become a sauna.

In 1998 I got laid off and decided to "retire". First priority was to cut costs. A friend had installed one of those soapstone stoves and thought it was great, so we went to the dealers to check them out. It was the huge foundation needed for the stove that eventually killed that idea. But while at the dealers we saw the newest generation of low-emission convection stoves and it seemed to me that they might do a better job of heating the air in our house.

After much calculating and reflection, I bought a Pacific Energy Spectrum wood burner, and that turns out to be one of the best decisions I've made. I burn about three cords of wood a year and save $1500 Cdn each year on heating costs. I also signed up for a time-of-use electrical rate, so I can heat the house with really cheap power at night, and burn wood during the day when the power is most expensive.

Three things I especially like about the Spectrum: the air control has a numbered scale, so I can adjust the burning rate consistently; there's an "efficiency" scale on the front (basically a glorified thermometer) so I know when to adjust the burning rate; and it's got a bottom-dumping ash door that opens into a removabe tray. Apparently the newer Pacific Energy stoves don't have the efficiency scale, but a stovepipe thermometer will do just as well.

When my neighbour asked me how often I had to clean the chimney, I said "I don't know yet, we've only had it three years." She was cleaning her chimney every ten weeks. (It turns out that I need to clean the chimney once every 5 years. Mind you, I burn only well-seasoned wood, and I don't choke the stove right down for an overnight burn the way some people do.)

I also find I don't need any tinder or kindling. Just 3 or more pieces of regular well-seasoned wood, stacked just so, and a 1" x 4" strip of birchbark to light it. First thing in the morning I stack the wood in the stove, set the air control to "start", light the birchbark, and go put on the coffee. By the time I've fed the dog and got the coffee brewing I can turn the air down to it's most efficient setting and I've got a nice comfy fire to sip my coffee in front of ;D.

One thing about these newer stoves -- the stove-pipe can cost as much as the stove. I had to replace my old 8" chimney with a 6" chimney and stove-pipe in order to get the efficiency and low emissions. On the plus side, the half-double-wall stove pipe only needs 4" clearance to a combustible surface, and supplies considerable additional heat to the room.

Our neighbours eventually replaced their stove with a Jotul, and while it's a nice-looking and well-made stove, I don't think they get that much better efficiency than we do.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Frank_Pender

I heat my 3,000 sq. ft. house with sa Taylor.  No mess in the house or smoke.  Keeps the wife more happy. ;D  I do miss the fact of being able to back up to a wood stove.  We use to have a Blazeking before the Taylor.  When the addition was put on of 1,200 sq. ft. 9 years ago we went to the Taylor.   8) 8) 8)

If the power  goes out  :'(I simply unplug the Taylor and hook up to one of the generators.   Everything is outside and less mess and such.

 
Frank Pender

EdK

Quote from: Greg on September 23, 2005, 11:32:07 AM
What blows my mind is the price differences out there from so many different manufacturers. For very similar looking medium sized EPA certified stove, the models range anywhere from $900 up to $2500.

On the high end there are Jotul and Lopi, among others.

I purchased a Jotul "Oslo" which is second from the top in terms of size and only spent around $1500. Considering just about any entry-level wood stove is running around $1000 I didn't think the price too bad. I've heated an entire 2700 sq ft house with it for two years now and I'm very happy with it.

Also looked at the Vermont Castings which have a good reputation. I liked that the Jotul used no catalytic element which would need replacing down the road. I believe Lopi are welded steel and the better half liked the cast iron look so I did not investigate them.
Burned no dino for two years  8)

rebocardo

> invest in a newer, efficient EPA certified wood stove

Are they more efficient or do they just produce less emissions? That is the question I need answered.
It seems the EPA stoves produce less BTUs per hour for the same sized firebox.

I plan to buy my woodstove with a glass door from northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company. Might pick it up locally.


submarinesailor

Many years ago, stationed in Charleston, SC, I installed a small Vermont Casting in the house.  Boy was it great!!!  Also, I really believe the outstanding quality of the stove and the 22 gauge chimney pipe saved her and the babies. 

One time while I was out submerged, she loaded and started the stove, went in to change the babies and put them too bed.  But, she forgot and left the stove in the start/updraft position with the thermostat wide open.  By the time she got done with the babies, she said that she heard a freight train roaring in the living room.  When she entered the room the pipe was red hot where it went through the ceiling.  The rest of it was orange or lighter.  Anyway, she put it into the secondary burn and closed down on the stat.  Needless to say, I didn't need to clean the chimney that year.  But I did need to repaint the exhaust pipe.  Burnt every bit of the high temperature paint off of it.  Sure was happy I put the stove and chimney in right.  The heavier gauge chimney pipe was worth every penny.

So, what ever you do, make sure you follow the directions and put it in RIGHT. 

BTW, LOTS AND LOTS OF SMOKE AND CO DETECTORS.

Bruce/subsailor

rebocardo

Yea, I have a smoke detector  in the hallwalls  along with one in each room, except the kitchen,  along with one CO2 in the living room area where the stove is. I might install a CO2 on the lower level too. I am going to follow the directions for safe distance and then add six inches along with using that double wall and insulated Duraxxxxx pipe because I am going through a sidewall.

I think I might tile the floor and walls around the stove because firebrick is pretty heavy and expensive and probably not needed except for the exit point in the brick wall around the studs.

I decided not to go EPA stove and instead went with a Compak stove by Drolet with the glass door. Basically the cheapest and smallest glass door stove for $300.00. At my smaller house the gas heat was $200.00 a month, I figure if I keep the small stove fired up hot it should prevent much cresote and hopefully allow me to hardly ever use the gas heat and save $150+ a month.
.


Roxie

I keep reading that you can install within 12" with a "close clearance kit"...but I haven't found a "close clearance kit" anywhere.  Does anyone know what the stove manufacturers mean when they say that?  The BlazeKing website that Sawdust posted has that kit referenced, but they don't sell it.   ::)
Putting down tile sounds like a good idea, I hadn't thought of that. 
Say when

Onthesauk

My Vermont Casting stove in the last house had a heat shield attached to the back, reduced the amount of clearance required.  Just light sheet metal.  I believe you can also achieve the same results by providing space for air circulation behind your heat shield on the wall.  The directions I've seen provide like a half inch of space between two sheets of wonder board with space at the bottom for the air to get in.  I'm sure code must vary.
John Deere 3038E
Sukuki LT-F500

Don't attribute irritating behavior to malevolence when mere stupidity will suffice as an explanation.

Larry

Had Buck, Earthstove, Fisher and Vermont Castings.  Our 18 year old Vermont Castings Defiant Encore IMHO is probably close to the best stove ever made.  It's only short coming is it was made to operate with a catalytic converter.  The catalyst failed twice in 6 years and I have been running it without one for 12 years...yeap they are expensive.  Can't tell any difference in efficiency but I'm sure the EPA could tell a difference in emissions.  The stove has long burn times, is easy to clean out without making a mess, and really easy to load from the top (can also be loaded from the front).  Don't like the stoves with built in fans...noisy and another maintenance item.  Good ceiling fans are lot better solution.

We pulled it out of our house that is going on the market in the spring and bought a new Buck Stove to replace it.  The Vermont Castings went to the shop but will eventually end up in our new home.



Roxie when I put the Vermont Castings in the shop I talked to the stove place about a "close clearance kit".  Not much to it...just a metal panel with about 2" of airspace behind it.  The guy told me they would have to order it but said there were other options such as double drywall, brick, and etc.  Think he said I would also have to use double wall pipe all the way from the stove to the ceiling.  They are more interested in selling new stoves than in service.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

bitternut

Roxie I think they are referring to a metal shield that is attached to the side of the stove on standoffs that give about 1" air space between the surface of the stove and the heat shield. They are usually open at the edges so air can flow freely through the air space. I have one on the back of my woodstove at camp and it allowed me to place the stove closer to the wall. They usually make them for the bottom of a stove also.

Another option is placing a sheet metal shield on a wall that is close to your stove. The shield should be mounted on 1"standoffs and be open on all edges to allow air flow.

beenthere

I agree with Larry, about the Vermont Castings Defiant. I have one as well in a great room (24 x 30) that we added on, and it heats it along with much of the rest of the house.


Online manual with installation and standoff from wall requirements, that fits most code, as I understand.
http://www.vermontcastings.org/catalog/elements/files/30001693_Defiant.pdf

I like how close to the wall Larry placed his woodstove.  I suppose as to not violate any clearance regs the local inspector might come up with.  ::) ;D ;D :D :D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Roxie

Thanks Bitternut and Onthesuak!  I've seen the black metal shields that you put on the wall and floor.  They have 1" spacers for the wall boards and they clip together somehow.  I thought maybe I was missing some optional installation parts or something.   :) 
My house is only 1200 square feet, so Larry's installation is not an option, but I'll bet that sure works to keep the air moving around the stove!  Cowboy Bob said that a lot of folks he knows put the stove in the middle of the room.  We are gonna have to do a corner installation though, so the heat shields will be an absolute necessity.  I also appreciate the tip about the built in fans, Larry.  I have three ceiling fans, so I won't waste money on a built in. 
Beenthere, you could fit 3/4 of my house inside your great room!   :D  That Defiant is made for 2400 square feet!  So many of these stoves are meant for more square footage than I have, so I'm really checking around.  Tractor Supply has a small stove called the O'Acorn made by King Stoves, and I'm leaning that way. 
I'll post pics when we git r done!   :)
Say when

Greg

Speaking of Vermont Castings,

Does anyone have experience with their Dutchwest model line?

They have some attractive looking, non catalytic, EPA certified medium and large free standing stoves (either cast iron or steel plate) for around $1100.

Seems like a great price, so I have to ponder, why so cheap compared to the $2k and above deals?

Thanks for all the input so far,
Greg

rebocardo

If you already have central air I think you can just put the house on fan setting for a few minutes and it will recirculate the hot air around the stove to every room in the house. I agree the blower fans are not worth the money, very expensive ($100+), suck down juice, and usually last only two seasons.

>The catalyst failed twice in 6 years

One of the main reasons I went non-EPA, I have had my cars die and have to be towed because of a blocked one, I did not want the same for the stove in the middle of a blackout.


beenthere

rebo
You can by-pass the converter in the wood stoves. The stove has to heat up to a certain point to be able to use them, and then they 'cook' a lot of energy from the gases that normally pass up the chimney.
So for very little wood, you get a lot of heat.

Years ago had cat converter problems as well, but seems of the last 10 years, they have not been a problem on cars. Or maybe I just have missed it.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

bitternut

I have two Vermont Castings woodstoves with catalytic converters. You have to clean the converter periodically as they get plugged up with a fly ash type material which cuts down on the draw. I can usually tell when it is time for a cleaning by the way the draft acts. My stoves will show signs of a poor draft when the damper is closed.

My Intrepid II model heats my house about 95% of the time and usually requires two cleanings a season. It is not a hard job but you have to shut down the stove and let it cool. The catalyst is very fragile and must be handled with care. I use a gentle blast of air to clean mine.

The stove I have at my woods only requires cleaning once a season. I have never tried running either stove without the catalyst. I really don't believe they should be operated without it. Maybe I will try it sometime just to see how well it operates.

Thank You Sponsors!