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Cut and skid rates in NE

Started by twistedtree, September 21, 2005, 03:31:45 PM

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twistedtree

I've got a woodlot with a stand or two that are scheduled for an improvement cut in the next year or so.  In the past I've hired a consulting forester to mark the trees, supervise the cut, and market/sell the logs.  I paid the forester a percentage of the log sales, plus a cut and skid charge per MBF (or cord for fire and pulp wood) for the logger, plus trucking per MBF (or cord).  This is all in central Vermont.

First question is whether this is a reasonable arrangement?  Are there other arrangements that some of you prefer?

Second question is what are reasonable rates for the various jobs described?

My objectives with any harvest are, in order

1) A healthy (to the forest), selective cut per the management plan

2) Minimal collateral damage to trees, forest floor, stone walls, etc. and minimal remaining mess

3) A fare price for the timber removed

I'm also sensitive to getting ripped off.  Many years ago we did a cut and the logger pulled a lot of trees on the side as a "bonus".  It left a bad taste in my mouth for the whole process, since it's very susceptable to that behavior.

Thanks

Jeff

It sounds to me like the first past choice mentioned was a pretty good choice.  Get a good one and he will pay for himself, partly, by looking out for all those things you mention.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

Yes, use a professional certified consulting forester for your timber management needs. Check their credentials and get references.

Normally the consultants commission should cover all costs to meet all your objectives with the timber harvest unless the project activites are planned during different time periods and not a part of the planned timber harvest as such.
~Ron

twistedtree

What are ranges for the commission rate?

Also, what are rates for cutting and skidding these days?  It's been 4 or 5 years since my last harvest.

Ron Wenrich

Another method is to sell just the stumpage.  That way you will have no risk, as to how the timber grade turns out.  Most timber sales in my area are for stumpage.  The forester has nothing to do with the sale of logs.  Foresters are charging anywhere from 10-15%.

For loggers, a lot would depend on your particular logging job.  How big the trees, how steep the terrain, how long the skid, etc.  In my area, $50-70/Mbf seems to be the going rate to cut and skid.  Trucking would be more.  Very little pulp done in this area.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

nyforester

Just to add to the comment on cutting rates.
I pay my help $25/cord for all pulpwood and anywhere from $40/MBF for pallets up to $175 for veneer.
I will concur on the Forest consulting fees - 10-15%.

twistedtree

Last time I did a harvest I paid with $125 or $150 per MBF, and something less that I don't recall for cordwood.  That covered cutting, limbing, and skidding to the landing ready for truck loading.  Seems on the high side from what I'm hearing.  The price did include initial clearing of the landing, cutting the skid trails, and cleanup.  Access and skid runs are not abnormal.  Runs are 1/4 to 1/2 mile. 

My forester charged eiither 10% or 15% for marking, supervision, and marketing of the timber.

I always wonder if wood goes out and is never accounted for back to me, including payment.  I have no specific reason to suspect any did, but it would be so easy for them to do, and it's so hard for them to make money .... well, you can see how it might happen.

Ron Wenrich

But, the rates for cutting also includes clearing for landings and road retirement.  That's part of the job.

As for foresters, just because they are consultants doesn't mean they wear a white hat.  Check references and get more than one consultant involved.  Let them bid on the job the way the loggers have to. 

When you have someone you can trust, then you'll have a good business deal.  I know of some guys I would trust with my paycheck, and some guys I wouldn't trust with my pocket change.

I'm not too sure that you're doing any better by paying the logger and the forester to market your logs.  You might do just as well by marketing the standing timber. 

With your setup, you do quite well on the veneer quality, but take a bath on the low grade stuff.  A red oak tie log in our area is going for $200/Mbf.  Using the high end of your figures, you get $42.50/Mbf.  Who pays for trucking?

Veneer red oak is going for $1400/Mbf.  Using you figures, $1062/Mbf.  Interesting to note that the forester makes more than the logger for them veneer at 11-15%.

Red oak sawtimber goes for $400-500/Mbf.  The trick is to figure out which is the better method - sawtimber vs sawlog.  If you run 50/50 veneer to tie, your price would be $550/Mbf.  As the veneer starts to go down, so does your income, and quickly.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

nyforester

Hi Twisted tree
You have a great question about trust. Everyone in this industry knows it would be so easy to be un-ethical. A few veneer logs per week sent to my door yard would make many nice gifts under the Christmas tree. The solution is simple but might require some work on your part. First, interview the people you are considering. Get references and check them out. Visit a few old jobs and talk to the landowners. You can learn a lot by that alone. Once you find some people you can trust and the job starts, DO NOT BE A STRANGER !!!!!. Go to the job daily and never at the same time. Definetly go when they are loading logs and count every log being loaded on the truck. When you get a copy of the scale - (this should be mandatory on every load) you can count the logs. They better add up. Next look over the grade. You will have seen the logs and will have an idea if you are being paid correctly. Also, on occation, be the last to leave the job site, and the first one to the job site the next morning. Look at tire tracks. Nothing will happen if they know you are a watch dog.
Not every logger/forester is a cmininal, but we all know there are bad doctors and lawyers also. I am fortunate to be working with a group of trusting people but it took some time to find them.
Hope this helps,
Pete

Ron Scott

Also sell by "lump sum" sale whereby the timber stumpage is paid for before cutting and removal rather than by  scaled sale or paid after cut sale.
~Ron

twistedtree

Since I live about 2 hrs from the site, I can't drop in daily.  I've luck if I can drop by on the weekend.  This is where the foresters supervision services are of great value to me, provided there is integrity.

The system I've used in the past works fine as long as the forester isn't skimming.  To be honest, I'm not sure everything has added up right in the past, which is why I'm trying to find a way to close any loop holes.  I've gone from knowing absolutely nothing about this to being a reasonably educated land owner, but certainly not an experienced logger/forester/etc., so there are holes in what I know.

When I hired the guy I'm using, I did all the checking described including checking with some people I know in the industry who would give me the straight scoop, and I got back all good reviews.

Here's where I think my current system prevents funny business, and where it's susceptable:

- The logger I'm confident is getting paid for all he cuts.  He knows what he cuts and what goes out and I'm sure he'd raise hell if he felt he were not getting paid for what went out.

- The Mills I generally trust because the forsester is watching how they grade adn is getting paid a % so he's incented to maximize the Mill value (this is the idea behind having him market the timber).

- The trucker isn't going to stand for getting paid less that what he trucks, so I've sure the forester is paying him for all that's actually hauled.

- The loop hole, is in the forester's accounting back to me.  He could be paying the logger, paying the trucker, and collecting from the mill, but only reporting every other or every fourth load to me.  Basically, a load can get cut, hauled, scaled, and paid for, and the forester could pay the logger and the trucker, but forget to ever tell me about it.

If I could count truck runs, I'd have a way to cross check what gets reported back to me.  That would make a big difference.

If I were the clearing house for the mill checks and payments to the logger and trucker, then it would be harder too.

I've considered just taking bids on the stumpage this next time, but then I think I relinquish all control over the quality of the harvest and cleanup.  There are lots of incentives for the logger to cut every corner possible.  There's also nobody to be sure only marked trees are removed.

I feel really bad taking such a pessimistic view of this.  It's generally not the way I approach business, but I'm afraid this is an industry that has brought it on themselves.

Ron Scott

Have your forester handle the entire job including the timber sale preparation, sale of the timber on bids, and administration of the logging contract on through to completion with the timber stumpage being sold on a "lump sum" basis where you are paid for the timber value before it is cut.

You need to have trust in your forester and not worry about all the aspects of the logging job. You have your payment for the timber in advance and only your forester is accountable to you, thus the reason for hiring a "certified professional forester".  :P
~Ron

David_c

Seems to me you have some real trust issues with your forester. So maybe it is time to find a new one. As for the industry bringing it on itself i take offence of that. Are there bad apples sure, just as in anything else. But that sure don't meen that just becuase there is some dirtbags that the whole industry is full of them. Good luck. By the way i am curious at time of cuts where you happy? If not why stay with same forester? If so why the trust issues no? Sorry for the rant.

As for your cut and skid rates they are right in line with this area.

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