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Tree Felling

Started by Arthur, September 16, 2005, 01:08:54 AM

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Arthur

Ive been told by an old logger that if you fell trees either side of the full moon you get different results.

One side the stump will regrow and on the other side the stump will dye.  Something to do with rising sap.

or is this on old loggers tale :P

arthur

DanG

Can't say I ever thought about it.  I always sorta preferred to fell them by sunlight, anyway. ;) ;D :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

woodbowl

Down here in the SE, I here the old timers say to cut when the sap is down to minimize shrinking and drying time. That would be winter time before Febuary.
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

tiny3

hi guys
my timbco doesnt see to care what time it is :D :D
artest formely known as tiny

Frank_Pender

DanG, you haven't had the Winter high in the dark.   I have.  There is nothing like it at all, falling a 140 Douglas Fir in the dark with 2 feet of snow hanging off of the limbs and laying on the ground. 8) 8) 8) 8)
Frank Pender

Woodhog

I prefer to fall mine when the price is full!!!

leweee

Quote from: Arthur on September 16, 2005, 01:08:54 AMSomething to do with rising sap.


I,m with DanG on this one......rising sap = gullible  newbie ::)
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

jokers

Well there was the one time that Gypo and I had to cut a nice stand of Black Walnut adjacent to a bit of Crown land by moonlight, full moon was best, but other than that, it doesn`t matter where in the lunar cycle you are unless it somehow lifts your spirits. ;D

Russ

timberjack240

om more or a production man manself and sould care less which they they fall as long as its not on me  ;D and we try to cut em down durin the day so we can see what were doin

Tom

I 'spect a lot of timber has been cut down here by moonshine.  ;D

SkidrowJoe

Rising Sap, thats funny because the sap is always up.  It does not go away in the winter or in sun/moonlight.  Sap flows by osmatic pressure and other pressure exchanges through the lenticles, stomatas, etc.

The stumps of today are the ceilings of tomorrow.

Arthur

Nice to have the jokes but I would like some factual information.

thanks woodbowl, seems logical.  Be interesting to find a report about this as it would enable a lot more acurate predictions of timber supply and scheduling.

In the UK the old crofting method was to cut back your firewood trees when the new buds showed after winter so you needed to plan at least a year in advance.

However we dont realy have a winter down time here.  the trees grow slower but they still grow.  I have noticed with bluegum that when the tree is felled before the full moon it will regrow and due to the established root system will be ready for harvest again in about 15 years and if treated right at the staart of the regrowth can have two or three trunks the same size.  From seed the same size log takes at least 25 to 30 years and would normally only have one trunk.  

When felled after the full moon the stup just dies.

arthur

Arthur

SkidrowJoe

The term rising sap you will find applies to the increase in the sap flow.

In winter the sap flow is reduced.  It is also increased by gravitational pull the same as the sea tides.  The pressure of the gravity from the moon increases the amount of sap flow and the speed that it flows.  maybe it should not be termed rising sap but that is is term that is used.

Just ask one of the many hippies about the best time to harvest and you will find that they will most likely tell you FULL MOON when the sap flow is at its highest.

There are many books on planting and harvesting that work from the moon cycle and its all to do with the grvitational pull of the moon NOT how bright it is.

I have not found any documents or research on the same for timber so thought I might get information from the members of the FF to help all of us in the best forestry practises.

arthur

Tom

I am not a Loony  ;D and give little credence to the moon having anything to do with anything, other than it's gravitational pull and possibly the amount of light it reflects. 

I know that a scientific study, if it disproved lunar effects, would not be believed by the bulk of Farmers, Hunters and fishermen.  If there is something to lunar affect, I think it would be restricted to site manipulation, probably in the amount of water available.

This recently written article is supposed to discuss the subject but a fee of $10 is required to read it.
http://www.urbanforestrysouth.org/Resources/Library/Citation.2005-08-03.0332

My education has always been that respiration takes place at night in plants.  That is when the plant relies on the sugars it created during the day to get it through the night.  Perhaps a bright(er) moon may delay the onset of Respiration and increase the growing part of the day by increasing the period in which the sugars are created.

Pine is our fiber crop here and stump sprouting is practically nonexistent, occurring only in Pond Pine, which is an"inferior" tree for lumber and not favored for pulp.

Studies have been done about getting Cypress to stump sprout.  In successful instances, the height of the stump, the time of the year and the amount of available water had more to do with stump sprouts than any other criteria.  Lunar affect was never mentioned in any seminar I attended on the subject. :)

If you have substantive evidence that the moon's phases cause different responses in plants, I think a paper and official publishing are in order.  I'll bet you could even get the help of the Botany Department of your closest University.   Professors are, many times, looking for subjects to assign to Graduate Students for Essays.

Arthur

Tom

I have to agree with you but you dont need to be a looney to recongnize the information and studies which others have done.

I see nothing in astrology but some of these test are quite impressive and long term. 

I am asking our government research called CSIRO if a grant would be available to study this or if they could do it themselves.

Even if it only produces 5% extra in milled timber or a slim growth advantage with long term sustainable forestry this might end up being considerable in totals.

I have not checked all the following links so please take care.

http://www.gardeningbythemoon.com/lunarfacts.html

most interesting but I think a short summary you have already hit on the head as I conclude that its all to do with the water levels as you have already pointed out.  It appears that at full moon plants take on higher levels of water regardless of the water availability.

arthur

Tom

Getting a Grant is an art all in itself.  I'm interested in how you progress.

floyd

May be a little difficult to get fallers that will only work at certain stages of the moon.

spencerhenry

fell only at certain times of the moon? somebody has been smoking their lunch, or maybe ate some mushrooms they found out in the woods. hey wait thats what hippies do. coincidence????

Tom

If it can be scientifically substantiated that felling a tree on a certain phase of the moon will reduce cracking, warping, change in color, or other drying considerations, it will probably not be the feller's choice when an expensive wood is separated from its living stump.  I doubt that it will make much difference in urban tree companies or paper pulp harvesters, but, it sure might to those who are processing Cherry, Walnut, Teak and other woods that are used for cabinetry, furniture or where perfect beams are a requirment.  Who knows, it might even be that the weight of the bole is less at one time or another, leading to  decreased shipping charges.

Lots of room there for study.  :)

An advertisement in 2030 after Arthur finishes his study might read:

Loggers wanted
bids being taken on the felling
of 1500 acres of prime walnut.
Must be taken down between
October 10th and October 12th.

;D :)

Sawyerfortyish

I knew of of a guy that only fell trees by the dark of moon that was about ten years ago. I wonder if he got out yet  :-\. My dad plants his garden by the moon. But cutting trees by the moon :-\. If you cut the tree off it's gonna fall. Saw it up into lumber dry it sell it hope to make money thats a plus anything else doesn't matter

Arthur

Where we live is just a pinhole on the maps but has the oldest history in northeast NSW for the Cedar getters.

I have been talking with some of the old loggers that are still around and looking at old pic and history articls and it appears that the choice was to fell the trees close to the new moon.  It would then take them the next 2 to 3 weeks to pull the logs out with ox teams before they did the next felling. 

The old blokes say that the trees weight less, tend to not split or crack when hitting the ground, etc,etc.  Im still getting the information together.  As they didnt have harvesting machines 180 years ago and there was no road, etc,etc it makes sense to log the best you can.

A lot of old time knowledge has been lost in the last 50 year which might be usefull for those who do their own logging and milling.  You cant log and mill at the same time if your a one man operation!!!

aom

Arthur,
I realize that many will propose you need medical help if you mention felling with the moon. I even asked a college lecturer this, needless to say he just smiled. But here in the UK, the season for felling quality sycamore[similar to US maple] runs once the leavesturn brown and start to fall, until just before sap rising in spring, unfortunately with milder winters the sap can start to run a bit early, which is difficult especially if you have a very valuable large diameter veneer quality ripple sycamore which you need to fell but the sap is starting to rise, hence you fell when you know when the sap will be at its least even though the sap is rising. If you fell when in full sap, sycamore will not remain white after milling rather it will turn a light brown colour, hence the importance of felling when the sap is down. So comming back to the moon phases, if it is just another old tale, why is it that the few companies that specialise in very high value sycamore in the UK, follow the principle of moon phases especially at certain times of the year. So in reality why would I want to believe some college proffessor that has never cut very high value hardwoods when compared to companies which export considerable volums of quality logs. Old motto dont laugh at anything you dont understand   AOM

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