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reality check

Started by OneWithWood, August 15, 2002, 12:08:45 PM

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OneWithWood

Hello.  I have been lurking on this site for a while now.   :P Ever since I saw my first bandsaw mill a few years ago I have coveted one.  I own 83 acres of qulaity mixed hardwoods.  My consulting forester and I are currently in the process of marking timber for a sale.  I am hoping to clear enough on this sale to purchase a used WM LT40HD, a kiln (probabaly a Nyle DH) and erect a shelter over both.  After the sale there will still be a good supply of red oak. white oak, hard maple, hickory, ash and some cherry that I could harvest over the years.  I also have good stands of veneer quality trees that will remain untouched for ten to fifteen years.  I am 48 years young and I have a good full time job that I intend to keep for the next 19 years.  I love the woods and managing the woodlot is a great past time.  I own a JD 450C crawler with a bucket and timber winch on it and a set of logging forks that could replace the bucket.  I also cut and burn 40 rick of firewood a year to heat our house and my wife's production greenhouse.
My current thought is to begin the learning process of milling quality lumber.  I am willing to work at this two weekends per month at a minimum but I have other pursuits, obligations and fettishes (caring for, rebuilding and maintaing classic Jaguars  ::) ) that require time also.
Here is the question:  Is it reasonable to expect to develop a market for kiln dryed hardwood and actually produce some cash flow while working full time and setting aside some time for family and other pursuits?  :-/   I want to learn to become a quality sawyer and develop a market so that when I retire from my current occupation I can devote my time to milling and playing in the woods. 8) 8) 8)
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Bibbyman

I wouldn't wait.  I wouldn't have the farm logged to pay for a mill.  I'd buy the NEW mill right now even if I had to borrow every cent.  

Here's way:

Money is as cheep as it's ever been and likely to be.  If you got it in the bank, it's not earning anything.

The revenue from one full day of custom sawing or for sure grade hardwood lumber sales will make the payment on the mill.  The second day will pay the overhead - rest will be nearly all income.  (Small mill, low production, low payment - large mill, large production, large payment)

You'll realize far more income from your timber if you can saw and market it yourself and you'll be able to manage the whole process much better.

Low risk.  Wood-Mizer has a 30 day full refund guarantee.  If you see it's not working for you, return it.   If it takes you a year to decide sawmilling is not for you,  you can sale the mill with only a small loss (sometimes not that due to price increases) - provided you keep it in good condition.

You can do it.  Just takes work.

BTY welcome!  Glad you came out from lurking! ::)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Tom

Yes !

You don't even have to worry yourself about a working schedule.  All you have to do is find a sawyer, sit down and watch.  A helping hand once in a while won't be turned away especially at "break down" time at the end of a hard day.

You will be surprised what you will learn just watching. Much information will be offered in idle conversation.  Interupting a sawyers train of thought is annoying, so don't do that.

Frank_Pender

Robert, first of all, welcome to The Forestry Forum.   The first thing that struck me about you post was the title.   Well chosen.   You will succeed at what ever you chose, rebuilding Jags, your personal career choice for the next 19 years and SAWING LUMBER.   You are panning and seeking imput for future,  that most often sets the stage for progress and success.   I agree with everything the Bibbyman said.   Start now.   $ are at an all time low over the last 35 years.  I would suggest that you not purchase someone elses sorrow, via a used mill.   Buy new, take the depression rate suggested best by your accountant and begin making sawdust.  If you need to supplement your cash flow remove only a few selected trees at a time and spread the removal around your acerage.    8) 8) 8)
Frank Pender

Jeff

Welcome Robert.

Hey, you guys seem to be jumping to conclusions. You seem to advocate not cutting his trees. Robert did not say he was cutting his trees in order to buy a sawmill, he said that he was going to use some of the proceeds to buy one.

Sounds to me that he is on the right track. He is working with a forester, and that forester has probably determined that this forest is in need of a thinning, maybe its to dense and not growing at an optimum rate, maybe some of ithas reached maturity, what ever reason, it sounds like Robert may have a sound management plan in place.

Wish I was in your shoes Robert!

Every thing else I agree with!

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bro. Noble

Welcome Robert,

I would agree on logging and sawing your own timber.  You can do it like you want it done and keep more of the dollars.  I would consider selling any vaneer that is close to ready to buy the mill.

Noble
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Jeff

Robert says he has 19 more years to work, and it sounds like that's what he is going to do. Would you recommend cut his own even if it is a detriment to his woodlot? He may very well achieve a greater value and a better forest in the future by following his foresters recommendations.

He probably will have MORE quality wood to saw. I want to hear the foresters on this one. The Rons are both well versed in hardwood management. Northern forestry can differ a great deal from that to the south. Ron W is on vacation but I am sure we will hear from Ron Scott if he aint in Buckley at the old engine show. Swampwhiteoak should have a good insight too.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Frank_Pender

you are correct, Jeff.  I do not know the forests in your country.  It is a bit challenging to try and relate, when most of the timber I deal with is either Douglas Fir, Grand Fir, or some form of our limited varities of hardwoods, like Western Oregon White Oak, Western Leaf Maple, or Madrone.  :'( The management plan is a great idea, it allows for hands on planning,  site inhancement as well as future growth and development.  :P  Long range evaluation is not always a good idea. :-[
Frank Pender

Bro. Noble

Jeff,

I don't think any of us are recommending going against the reccomendations of the forester.  The issue is whether Robert might be better off doing the logging himself.  If he has the time to do it and the will,  I think he might be better off.  If the loggers are like most of the ones in our area, I'm sure that he would be.  Even if it took him a couple of years to remove the trees that needed it the worst, the timber probably wouldn't suffer too bad.

If it were logged off now, he would probably have to buy some logs during the next 19 years.  I don't think 80 acres that had been recently logged would a weekend operation.

If he is going to wait 19 years before he saws much then he should go ahead and sell the trees (that need to be removed ) now.  Even then since he has part of the logging equipment, I think he might want to consider doing his own logging.

Even though we aren't foresters we do have businesses similar to what Robert is considering and feel like we are giving him good advice.  

Noble

PS  we still like you Jeff even if you sent us to the corner!
milking and logging and sawing and milking

C_Miller

Hi Robert

   I am envious, I snuck(or sneeked?) a peek at your profile.
 I 've spent some time around Bloomington and Nashville. That IU campus is creepy at night with the school of music singers practicing and the wind blowing the tree limbs to and fro. but I digress.

I would do it the way you're gonna. Selling enough to cover the start up costs will still leave trees to get a business started. with a paid for mill you don't have to worry if things don't take off right away. or if one of the jags need an emergency waxing and buffing.

I imagine your acreage hasn't been tended to so getting a forester to set up a management plan is a most excellent start.
by the time you retire (if the if you have not succumbed to the sawdustitis) your wood lot should be in great shape.

by the way, did you know the guys that ran the door shop 'tween Bloomington and nashville?
CJM

Jeff

If you went to a corner Noble its cause yer hiding.  ;)

If Robert is budgeting his time for family and other endevors, I would not recommend trying to squeeze the learning curve of logging in there to. Leave it to the pros for a major timber harvest. Logging equipment dont make you a logger.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

dewwood

Robert,

Welcome to the forum!  There is a lot of good information available from the members.
  
Like yourself I worked full time away from home for several years and started a hardwood lumber business.  There is a lot of time and work involved in getting a business going.  I was working forty hours away and about forty hours at home wondering when retirement would finally get here so that I could relax.  I installed a kiln and do my own drying however I have been hiring all of my sawing done as this was in fact hiring the labor I needed for the sawing.  This also gave me an opportunity to watch and learn without the investment of a mill.  This worked fine untill the company I worked for decided to move out of this area so I am now full time lumber business and still wondering when the relaxing time will come.  I am currently in the process of buying a slightly used WM and plan to start doing my own sawing within the next month.  This is another way to look at where you are now and where you want to be in five, ten or twenty years.  I think your work with the forester is an excellent start and you will no doubt enjoy many years of "working in your woods".

Best of luck with whatever choices you make.

If you get up to the Angola, IN area look me up.

Dewey Powers
Selling hardwood lumber, doing some sawing and drying, growing the next generation of trees and enjoying the kids and grandkids.

Bro. Noble

Jeff,

Ain't hiding!!

I reread Roberts post.  He's not asking for opinions on the forestry end anyway.  He's asking about a part-time wood business.  Dewey (and some of the others ) answered his question by personal example.

I got hung up on what was right for me in a similar situation.

Still like you but think you must be a little out of sorts, probably from one of the following reasons:

A)  Too hard of a past weekend.

B)  Using too much Canadian Bar Oil

C)  Miffed from not knowing about Hogmollies

Noble
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Brian_Bailey

Hi Robert,  Welcome to the forum.  It's a great place to discuss your ideas and learn from the real pro's,  the ones that are doing it every day.  Your post brought back memories of when I first started, cept the Jags' and an enviable source of timber.  Sounds like you have a good handle on how and what you want to accomplish.  I see a definite conflict about to form,  once the sawdust gets into your veins,  priorities have a way of changing  :D.

On another note,  Jeff's advice about leaving the logging to the pro's is very sound advice.  On Wed., not to far from me,  a 45 yr. old man was killed when his tractor flipped over on top of him.  He was pulling an 88' hemlock log up an incline. :'(.
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

J Beyer

Here is an idea.  Sell the veneer logs.  Then pay someone the going rate in the area to mill the saw logs and find someone to buy the lumber.  Would this not be a better way to get more cash than just selling logs outright?

If it were my woodlot, I would selectively harvest according to the forester.  Mill the lumber myself, and use the branches for firewood, or allow people I knkow to come in and cut the limbs up for themselves.  After all, a healthy forest can have 0.5-1.5 cords fo wood product removed without harm to it.

JB
"From my cold, dead, hands you dirty Liberals"

OneWithWood

Thank-you all for your thoughtful and informative replies.  You guys are great! ;D
Let me expand a bit on my situation.  I purchased the first 20 acre parcel of my property in 1980.  I had a harvest in 1984 that I managed and bid myself - big mistake  >:(  I let myself get talked into a diameter cut.  Fortunately I entered Indiana's classified Wildlife habitat program and began to interact with state biologists and foresters.  In 1989 I purchased an adjoining 63 acres and promptly put the land into the Classified Forest program and had the district forester out to cruise the woods with me.  We put together a mangement plan then.  As part of the plan I contacted a consulting forester to help me mark over mature and less desireable trees.  We had a small (250 trees, 57M bdft) sale.  After the sale I bagan the never ending TSI work.  The results of that sale as far as the overall health and productivity of the woodlot is very evident today as I work again with a consulting forester ( who also happens to own a WM) to continue with the management plan.  This time we are going to open up a number of 1 acre sights away from the bulk of the veneer trees.  After the harvest the TSI work will include planting red oak in the openings.  I am very fortunate to have excellent soil and conditions for red oak.  Part of the proceeds of the sale will be going to the purchase of an adjoining 17 acre tract of woods that desperately needs help.
 :o
C. Miller:  Many woddshops 'tween B-town and Nashville have come and gone.  I did not know any of them personally.
Dewey: Angola, In is in wonderful country.  How far are you from Pokagon?  I spent my formative years in Warsaw.
Brian: The danger of logging by myself is always foremost in my mind.  As the local heavy equipment repairman told me - on tractors and in cars you can get hurt.  On an 18,000 lb. crawler winching timber you get dead! :o
I choose to leave the large weeding and improvement cuts to the pros.  I watch and learn.  After they are through I will have good logging roads to use and more room to fell and drag trees.
Well my consulting forester jsut arrived.  Time to go mark trees. :)
I am so glad to know I will have lots of company as I traverse this road to insanity  8) 8) 8) 8) or sawdustitis - take your pick!
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Bibbyman

Lots of ways to go.  Looks like if you've already established a relationship with you're forestry consultant that, by the way, has a Wood-Mizer,  (I like him already!). Then you could have some of your trees harvested and sold and have some of your trees harvested and you could have them milled into lumber (buy your forestry consultant?) to "seed" you're lumber business.  

I know of examples where the logger has agreed to take some to market and leave some for the landowner.  In one case,  all they were interested in was the veneer log and they skidded and landed the top logs for the land owner as a courtesy. He had someone come in with a bandmill and saw them up for him.

I had a land owner call me just the other evening and wanted to have some of his trees sawn into grade lumber for his own use.  But he was not capable or equipped to do the logging and I'm a sawyer, not a logger.  So I gave him the name of a logger in our area and advised him to approach him on a deal to market some of the logs for his service and deliver his share to our mill instead of payment.

Just always thinkin'.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Ron Scott

It sounds like you are on the right track, but be sure that you have a Landowner Stewardship Plan for sustainable forestry before starting any timber harvest. Especially if one of your objectives is to supply a small sawmill operation and provide some income from your woodland.

Be sure that you are working with a professional Consulting Forester with credentials and well versed in ecosystem management for sustainable forestry. Insure that they know what a selection harvest is. (It is not diameter cuts, mature tree cutting, high grading by cutting the best and the veneer first etc.). Work in all the diameter classes and remove the "worst first". Increasing the quality of your sawlogs and their mean annual incrument will greatly increase your timber values and pay for that mill you want.

Don't over cut just because you have the trees on the property. First work out your infrastructure for future logging, get the roads, landings, decking areas, processing areas etc laid out and established. Some timber will be available from these activities, but put them in the right places using best management practices. Always be thinking about your next harvest to improve the economics of it.

Use care in  logging your selective harvest. Use variable length logging methods and not tree length harvesting. Save that for the clear cuts only. Short wood log and prevent any tree damage for future log quality and increased $$$. Use loggers that are light on the land and don't "hammer" your woods. Check their work and get references.







~Ron

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