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carbon credits ??????

Started by whitepine, August 17, 2005, 10:32:29 PM

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whitepine

Has anyone any information on how carbon sequstioning will work. What values will be put on  different species per acre? I realize it is not accepted yet in the USA but how are they handleing it in countries that are using carbon credits. Thanks Tom

beenthere

Could (would) you spell out a little bit more in the way of explaining what you are talking about here?  Over the last 30+ years I've heard a lot about the topic of 'carbon sequestering' and my take is if the wood stays in the form of wood (like solid in a tree or in a piece of furniture) it is 'sequestered', but if burned or left to rot, it is not. 
You indicate there are now 'carbon credits' for sequestering?  I have heard about 'carbon credits' for growing trees and also talk about 'selling' credits to corporations who cause carbon to be un-sequestered, so to speak.  Seems species wouldn't really enter into the calculation of a 'credit', but I'd admit to not knowing a lot about it.  :)
You are talking like you do, and I'd be interested in what your viewpoint is.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

crtreedude

It is a pretty big thing down here - the Netherlands gave Costa Rica a sizable chunk of change to do this. Let's see if I can remember it all.  The program here is called FONAFIFO.

You have to continue to use the land for forestry for 20 or more years, and the payment goes something like this per Hectare (2.47 acres)
Forestry plantations = $ 580   
Forest protection = US $ 227
Forest administration =    US $ 354

The payment is broken into 5 years:  1st = 50 % 2nd = 20 % 3rd = 15 % 4th = 10 % 5th = 5 %

Harvesting trees is considered to have more value than forest protection you can see as long as more trees are grown. The reason is that the carbon is tied up in the wood for much longer.

I am actually in contact with a company right now who is looking at marketing the credits, like trading commodities. The reason is that there is more demand than there is places that have the trees. Expect to see more of this in the future. I have a meeting with them in the first week in September - if it is applicable to the North, I'll let you all know.

Not sure how much that means to you all - but down here, it is a big thing. You are not allowed to cut certain areas: and in those areas, this is a way to compensate the landowners for these areas that the rest of the world doesn't want touched.

To my knowledge, there is nothing about the different species - however, if you want government's help in planting, you have to plant what they agree will grow well.


So, how did I end up here anyway?

Texas Ranger

Carbon credits are a method developed by the UN to move money from the 1st world nations to the third world nations without putting any environmental restrictions on the third world nation similar to those placed on the 1st world nations. 

In short, it is part of the new world order to redistribute wealth to the have/will not nations.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

crtreedude

Texas Ranger,

Nope, not at all - our environmental laws down here are MUCH worse than yours - want to compare sometime? And they were imposed by the World Bank.

1. No cutting within 15 meters of streams and rivers. PERIOD.
2. No cutting within  50 meters of the same if it is hilly.
3. No cutting within 100 meter radius of a spring.
4. No cutting of secondary forest - PERIOD. Secondary forest is defined as having undergrowth. Therefore, just let a field go fallow and turn into a forest, and it is lost to you forever!
5. No cutting of more than 30% of the canopy of a mature forest - ever. You must preserve the 70% of the canopy at all times
6. No cutting of many, many species of trees, unless you planted them yourself.
7. No cutting of the majority of species of trees without a permit from MINAE - and paying a fee. The permit MUST be submitted by a licensed forestry engineer - which you have to pay.
8. No moving of lumber without a "Origen" document. It doesn't matter if the tree is dead, on my property, etc.

Violate many of these rules and you can find yourself in jail for 3 years and all your equipment confiscated. They have been closing big sawmills - permanently - for accepting logs without paperwork. Imagine the DEC walking into your local sawmill and closing it down because not all the logs had permits...

So, do you really think your rules are worse than ours?  :o If you want to check this - look up the Ley 7575 in Costa Rica - hope you can read Spanish....  ;)

Growing a tree in the north is slow business - even in Texas. Grow one here, it ties up carbon much, much quicker. For example, I have read that hardwood growth in the USA of 2 cubic meters per hectare per year is good (hectare = 2.47 acres), down here that would be pavement.

Our growth rate on our finca is more than 10 times that - for teak and other hardwoods.

So, since the name of the game is tying up carbon, it is done much quicker here than there. For once, the Latin American countries have something they do better than they do in the 1st World nations.

The money is going into the hands of the landowners who tend to be small farmers to compensate them for lost productivity of the land based on the above rules - surely that is fair - since the rest of the world seems to value the carbon sink that is the rainforest.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

Texas Ranger

CR may be the exception to the rule, I was thinking of Kyoto agreement and the nations that have been given a pass on co2 release.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

crtreedude

Costa Rica is much, much better - but the others are slowly losing their choices because the world bank imposes rules - or they get no loans.

When the USA was younger - the environmental laws were nearly non-existant, which aided the USA in building their industries. Now, the countries like Costa Rica have to try to catch up AND follow stricter environmental laws.  It makes it pretty difficult for the people who are in these nations.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

whitepine

Thanks for the reply. I know that in Chicago they are trading carbon credits they just opened a new excahnge just for that and Iowa and to a lesser extent Nebraska are  dealing in them. I am curious as I will be planting  alot of trees in the next few years and from what I can find out northern hardwoods are sequstering almost twice the carbon than pines.  The excange has a website but they do not explain how they are figuring things out. A contract is for 10,000 tons. Current price is $2.00 per ton but cant figure out for how long or much of anything thats why I ask. I doubt if anything will happen until the oilman is out of office here but  it looks  like the future. In the last 10  years all the  big timber companies have sold their  timberlands to holding companies up here and as they are llc one cannot find out the principles rumour is China, Another rumour is Harvard put a huge amount into forest  lands also. I enjoy following the money on these deals but  this is buried awful deep. There are numoerous studies on the internet showing carbon sequeting rates for northern forests. My gut feeling is this will be alot bigger than the timber value of land in the future. Thanks and would appreciate any more information anyone has about how other countries are figuring this.

crtreedude

Hi whitepine,

I got into tree speculation about 4 years ago - and it is why I am in Costa Rica.  I guess I wanted to invest in a resource that was dwindling in supply but increasing in demand. Tropical hardwoods seem to meet that bill for me. Since my background is high tech, I often can't invest in it (and I really think the fast growth of the software development companies is over) because I could be guilty of insider trading. Better to stay away.

Also, I don't like investing in software since I still make money in it - lose your job and your retirement at the same time.

Wood is just ratching up through the roof now here. Wooden houses are now the rage, before they were the home of the poor. Costa Rica is in a building boom - due to people like Harold (FloridaDeadHeader) who are moving here. It is projected that in 5 years, Costa Rica will have to start importing wood.  :o The question is, "From Where?"

Carbon rights are going to have to go up a lot more before it is worth more than the wood here.

Fred


So, how did I end up here anyway?

Texas Ranger

White pine, I'll add to the question.

The exchange has a website but they do not explain how they are figuring things out. A contract is for 10,000 tons. Current price is $2.00 per ton but cant figure out for how long or much of anything thats why I ask....

In yellow pine, that would amount to $20,000.00 for 1,250,000 board feet of timber.  Here in Texas on the average private holdings that would equal about 1,000 acres.  Taxes on that would be about $3,000 per year.  So you get about 6 or 7 years of taxes paid.  If you are in the timber business, that would help, but, it would also be considered common income and taxed as such.  So the return is much lower, probably by a third.

In well managed stands that could be kicked up a notch where it would pay taxes for some 12 - 15 years.  Or to about the time of the first thinning.  Again as common income that would be lowered by a third.

My opinion is carbon credits are the same as "certified" wood.  A game played by folks who have little concern for the actual process of growing trees, and more concern for the political aspects of the "green revolution", which to me is an insidious extension of the one world government.

The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

beenthere

Tex
That was very well said, IMO.  :)

Planting some trees to just play this game is the 'drop in the ocean' analogy, I think.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

crtreedude

Hi Texas Ranger,

Here in Costa Rica when you file under reforestation - you don't pay property taxes.  :) Life is good.

I think there is a recognition out there that what you do effects people in other parts of the world. For example, the North East is have a problem with acid rain - and it is coming from people from the West. States rights are good - but what do we do about the fact that the industries and power plants are killing the trees that SpruceBunny is taking care of? (I don't know if they are, I am just using her as an example because of her location)

I do know some lakes I used to fish in up in the Adirondacks are pretty much barren because of acid rain. It sure wasn't the Adirondacks that caused the problem.

So, in the old adage - "My rights ends at your nose" we are starting to be able to prove that what you are doing effects people in other countries. Carbon credits is a way to compensate these other countries for the damage, or have you pay for someone to mitigate the damage.

I guess the other alternative is that you could be sued by the World Court and damages collected - and if you don't pay, the other nations of the world could force you and then collect damages. I personally prefer to settle things peacefully.

The truth is: It IS one world and some things do effect all of us. When even the oil companies are starting to agree we have a problem - you know things are getting bad.  :-\

By the way, the person who is talking with me about Carbon Rights made his money in Texas oil and he has a lot of inside information and is more than a little worried. When insiders are concerned, we should be very concerned.

By the way, I agree with you on the Certified wood thing - much of it is merely PR and there have been some MAJOR frauds in this area. My wood isn't certified - it really is redundant when you are in Costa Rica. Under certification, if I break the rules, I might lose my certification - here in Costa Rica, I could lose all the wood AND spend some time is a not very pleasant jail.

As far as the one world issue - as the World becomes smaller because of technology and transportation, the trend to "one world" becomes more and more. For example, it used to actually make sense that each state of the USA runs themselves independently, but you will notice that much of these "states rights" are dwindling year by year. How much sense does it really make for RI to have different rules than CT or MA? If smaller is better, why not break it down even more? The federal government exists because somethings have to be dealt with on a federal level, like protecting the USA from other countries - and you will also notice that the EPA is federal, not local. That is because your smog crosses states boarders,  it can also cross country borders as well.

Now, if you come up with a way to keep the polution of TX within TX - well, then I don't think anyone will mind what you do - except of course the people who live there. Much of the polution drifts with the wind. When the winds stop and the air doesn't move in LA - start smoking, it is better for you.

just my dos colones

So, how did I end up here anyway?

whitepine

At the risk of turning this into political if China was located 20 miles off the California coast there would not even be a discussion/debate about international polution, If you dont think polution is a problem fine we shall agree to disagree. I noticed the europeons have opened a carbon exchange also patterned after the ccx in Chicago. The 2.00 figure is the current Chicago rate it is 10 times that in some other places ( the problem is each exchange is trading in different units) and as it is not law in USA this is voluntary trading. I have read that although your wood grows alot faster in the tropics it also decomposes faster releasing carbon back and  some northern hardwoods forests compare favorably in storing carbon. Very interesting times we live in.  Didn't Canada sign Koyoto ? I know the russians just did and I would imagine the scandinavian countries did so there must be some information on how they are setting up carbon trading for northern forests. Checked out that Harvard thing they have bought and sold alot of timberland to the tune of 20 billion worth and lumber futures are really doing fine.
In the past I read about tree farms in CR thought it was interesting but the hair  stood  on the back of my neck like when you think something is really wrong and I never pursued it that was about 15 years ago at the time I was buying and selling timberland here in MN and did very well untill the land prices shot up although now stumpage prices here have really been on a rise. Is there a forum or group on timberland trading?

beenthere

Whitepine
Have you read anything or heard anything about this group?

http://www.dovetailinc.org/index.html
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

crtreedude

You were wise not to invest in plantations in Costa Rica 15 years ago. There were scam after scam down here. You wouldn't believe what they planted on - teak requires rich soil and the right conditions to grow correctly - most of it is planted on red clay - absolutely worthless soil.

Also, people were using the free services of the government for planting - not exactly a good idea. A lot of teak when in incorrectly and was never maintained.

just my dos colones
So, how did I end up here anyway?

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

My perspective on this 'carbon credit' issue is that I feel it's an awefully lot like the New Millenium disaster or the dot.com bubble. Sooner or later the thing will show it's face value and fall flat. ;) I think the whole thing is a diversion from the real issue of climate change and another way for some 'pencil pushers' to profit from the gullable investor types. ;D Knowing that research behind new discoveries and technology are not static, I see us continuing to develop new technologies that use renewable resources and phase out the old that rely on non-renewable resources. Some new technologies may not even have to do with resources, but instead may be new processes that give greater returns from efforts excerted.  I don't think anyone believes we are going to wait until the week before to do something? I am pretty sure there is stuff behind the scenes that we don't even know about yet. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

whitepine

I would like to thank you all for your input and Swampdonkey your point is well taken. I too also expect people in three piece suits will make a fortune out of this but hope some will trickle down and maybe even help our environment. Beenthere as you can see I have alot of questions myself but if there is anything I or the group could explain let me know I warn you I expect alot of what I know is wrong or will change thats why I posted the question here. Thanks all for the links and if you find anything in the future please contact me. To my friend in CR , I was ready to go down there ( I prospect as a hobby and there was a very nice guy called Ken in CR a chemist I conversed with) but things changed and made that difficult, as I get old and look back I seem to have the best success with things I can put my hands on physically and I really love the woods, it has treated me well in the past and I hope it will again in the future.

beenthere

whitepine

Your quote ""Beenthere as you can see I have alot of questions myself but if there is anything I or the group could explain.......

When you say "I or the group..", who are you referring to?  Are you with a group?  such as the dovetailinc? 

Mostly you just raised my curiousity a bit more..  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

whitepine

By group I mean this group I am not a member of any group relating to carbon credits.

crtreedude

whitepine,

Would that be Ken, the friend of FDH? If it isn't, the coincidence is amazing since both of them were into prospecting here.

I tend not to be a classic environmentalist - I don't even think of myself as one. I think the only way to save the environment (not the world, it will be hard to destroy it I think without nuclear weapons) is to make it pay for itself. Perhaps carbon credits is a baby step toward it.

If people can make money off improving things for a change and producing wood in a more sustainable fashion - I don't see any problem with this. I particularly like the idea that carbon credits are not anti-lumber.



So, how did I end up here anyway?

whitepine

The Ken I am refering to was known as Ken in Costa Rica in the prospecting  groups he had a website called basement chemistry for the prospector and very active on mining forums. I also never think of myself as an environmentalist but spent a life in the woods trapping cattle and logging, always figured that if you put your money where your mouth is most landowners really take care of their property and nothing wrong with making some money off of it and if one can help the environment so much the better. I too think this carbon credit thing has real promise and unfortunatly alot of legislation and laws will go along with it. I live in a timber area for pulp and OSB board and I doubt if  one person in a thousand has any idea what carbon credits are about. Looking at logging articles the scandinavian countries are way ahead of us in  using wood and recovery they use everything and the most advanced whole tree cut to length and processing  units are designed and some made there.

Sprucegum

I have no corroberation but the story I have heard in this neck of the woods (Alberta,Canada) is that the Govenment pays $50 per acre to the Timber Companies to not cut the trees.
The Timber Co. in turn is leasing wooded land from private landowners/farmers for $25 per acre which they can claim as uncut timberland.

So the farmer makes $25 for doing nothing and the Timber Co. makes $25 for doing a little paperwork. The Gov. gets to say we are saving the world and the taxpayer gets - - well, we all know what the taxpayer gets.



I live in a free country, I can be cynical if I want to.

Fla._Deadheader


  WhitePine, were you ever in Costa Rica ???  Ken was a very good friend to me. We traveled around CR, but, I was always there at the worst time for prospecting.

  I have access to his dredge and a couple of places to use it. IM me if you would like to talk.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

whitepine

Hi I never met Ken we  emiled back and forth a bit as I was  interested in going there for prospecting and I am the owner of the yahoo group Micron Gold. He sure was a helpful person to us prospectors and will really be missed. You must have learned a bunch being with him he sure had a easy way to explain things. I would love to get down there spent alot of time yesterday on  I think crtreedude site and the links: northern Minnesota has about 4 months that if you are not logging it would be fine to get away from I  would love to get down there. Very interesting the buying trees down there and they seem to be way ahead of us in the forestry dept. Do you keep his dredge down there?

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