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Rail road tie sawing seminar in south east Michigan

Started by oakiemac, August 09, 2005, 12:27:55 PM

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Buzz-sawyer

Rod


Ties with 1/2 heart???????

splitting the heart to get 2 out of a small log?????????

Your TIE buyer AINT selling to the railroads.
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

FiremanEd

Rod,

I'm not sure where you're at but Burke-Parsons-Bowlby has a plant just off of I-64 just inside of Va from the WV line.

Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

Buzz-sawyer

Eddie
Man that Woody is a sawing dickens :D :D :D :D
It comes from sawing on his custom verticle cut woody-mizer I recon ;) :D
Like I was saying to deadhead yesterday...maximizing a big log takes strategery.............
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Rod

FiremanEd ,thanks,I'm in Clay West Virginia,its right in the middle of West Virginia,about 100 miles anyway I go  i'll end up in another state  :D

Buzz,I don't know who they sell the ties too,but there are big plies of ties at the treatmet plant loaded on trailers moving out going some were aftr there treated.

Rod

buzz,they did tel me not to split the heart dead in the middle tho ;D

Ron Wenrich

I don't make a habit of splitting ties.  One thing that they did specify was no quartered sycamore.  Getting 7 from a big sycamore may be OK, but they know where they came from when they unload the bundles at the treeatment plant. 

As Buzz said, when they need lots of ties, they'll take anything.  When they don't, you'll be dumped.  I always go for quality.  I always sell ties.

Cutting bridge is OK, as long as the price is right.  Just because its a big piece does not warrant leaving FAS on a bridge timber.  A lot depends on log quality.  Bridge orders aren't all that steady.  I haven't seen one in quite some time, and I cut most of the bridges.

I recently had an order for 4x10 or 12, 5x10 or 12, & 6x10 or 12.  All of it was 8'.  Price was $900/Mbf.  I could cut just about anything into it.  Order was for 30 Mbf.  It paid better than ties.

Rod:  your mill costs have to be more than $1/hr.  No one works for free.  All costs must go into your calculations, including depreciation.  Figuring labor as a no cost item won't work. 

You will have fixed costs like depreciation, rent (even if its to yourself), taxes, etc.  You will also have variable costs like blades, fuel, etc.  You eventually have to get new blades.  Most bandmill figures I hear are more in the line of $250/Mnf.  I don't run a band, so I'm not sure.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

WH_Conley

Grade log market around here is getting tight, so I am plenty of good tie logs. Tried buying by bf and got large logs with junk lumber that I couldn't give away. Had more in some logs than the tie brought. Started buying at $10.00 per log, regardless of size, as long as it makes a tie, otherwise $150.00 per thousand or put it back on the truck, loggers option. Pallet mills are giving 120-180. If they are small they go on the lower end. This figures on a good tie log 12 inches and straight at 250, 13 inches 200, 14 inches 160. Doyle rule. If the logger will take the time to watch and seperate the logs he will make more money. Big low grade to pallet mill, small to me. Must be working, I just started doing this in the last month and picked up several new suppliers.

Used to be able to sell at BPB concentration yard without a heart, only place to sell around here now is Koppers and they want a heart in all ties
Bill

Rod

Ron,i didn't know you ment man and the mill.I was just figureing in what it cost to run the mill it self.And what does the ''n'' in Mnf stand for?And if I count depreciation on my sawmill shed then when or if I ever sale the place I'd have to figure that it in on the sell price.And the $4000 depreciation on the mill wouldn't count to much in the total cost of things I wouldnt think.Now for the labor on sawing,I'd figure maybe $25 and hour..But I think I've heard that a band blade last about 2000 feet before they break but I've never broke one yet so I dont know. .$20 for a band blade that last 2000 feet comes to 1 cent a foot,or there abouts.

What I don't understand is with those steel plates covering the ends of the ties how can anyone tell that part of the tree it came from?And with all that black tar all over it and thos guesset plates on the ends?

Conley,I my try buying logs your way and see what happens




FiremanEd

Ron,

I agree 100% that they know who the ties came from (they paint our name on the bundles going to BPB)and we to only send out solid clear ties. Both BPB and Koppers are buying from use weekly and I have an open order from both for bridge timbers. One want's the 8x's and the other want's 10x's. Both buyers are calling us so I guess they're more than happy w/ what we're sending them.

That was a smoking order you had for the smaller timbers!!

Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

Ron Wenrich

Yep, those small orders are real nice when you can get them.  It was for a road building project down the road.  I gave them some 6x12x16 hickory, which they cut in half.  They said they had some "big boys" that could handle the big stuff.   ;D

Rod:   Mnf should have been Mbf.  Misprint.  You must figure all costs.  The mill up the road has to do that.  So do you to remain competitive.  I usually figure a base salary and multipy by 1.5  to cover the extras like social security, workman's comp, etc.  That might even be a little low.  Your $25/hr comes out to a little over $16/hr.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

smwwoody

Ron

I've benn sawing for and selling ties to BPB since 1986.  If you mention my name to any of the owners Or the plant manager or the grader in the DuBois plant they will tell you that as long as they are buying they will buy any tie or timber I saw sight unseen.  I have a very good rep for quality with them.  The dumping junk on them goes both ways..  when you saw good ties for them they will help you get rid of a little junk sometimes.  A good tie buyer will let you know how the market is and what they can take and when.  you have to work with them and they will treat you well for the long run.

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
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jpad_mi

I'm about a day late on this, but... you're right Oakiemac, Jeremy said boxed heart only, one tie per log.

Another interesting tidbit from the seminar : they are paying the same amount for 7x9 grade ties (8' 6"), 7x9-10' switch ties, and 7x9-12' switch ties. If you're sending in 12foot switch ties, you're losing profit potential.  Instead of loading two 12 ft switch ties on the truck that bring $36.50, lop them off at 8'6" and throw another on the truck to get paid $54.75.  You're not getting paid for the extra 4 feet of tie, and it eats up some of the trailers weight capacity. 
Jeff P. in Michigan

FiremanEd

Jpad,

I'm don't understand why they're not paying you more for the longer ties,,, they're selling them for more....

Koppers and BPB both pay well for the extra lengths. We're getting $18.75, 21, 21.50, and 26.75 for 8'9", 9'6", 10'6" & 12'6" 7x9's.

I wouldn't thing regional differences would make that much difference on the tie market.
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

jpad_mi

It's the current supply and demand at his plant (Wisconsin). The tie buyer said he can't get enough of the 8'6" grade ties, and apparently has too many 10's and 12's. I think he said they end up cutting the 10's and 12' down to 8'6".

I guess the moral of the story is know what your getting paid for each length so you can make tradeoffs as necessary. The prices you quoted seem a lot more reasonable.
Jeff P. in Michigan

Rod

I think it takes 3000 ties to go a mile,so I think thats the reason they keep runing out of the 8 footers.Tie buyers around here will send a price list there giving for ties.

Ron Wenrich

woody

I've been sawing ties since '82.  They put everyone on quotas in '84, since the market was so bad.  My buyer doesn't give me any rejects and will buy mixed hdwds at the oak price on occassion.  You got your reputation by producing good ties.  Those that produce junk also get a reputation.

I think the markets are different in each locale.  The 10' & 12' switch sell for the same price.  So, I just cut them back, if the log warrants it.  Bridge orders have not been plentiful.  Switch ties from 13'-23' are usually pretty good.  The price on the longer ones is really good.  But, those markets can come and go.

With oak markets going south, oak production will fkiw over to the tie market.  That will keep prices steady.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Rod

Hi woody,I was wondering if you have tried the new woodmizer sliver tip blades yet?

Sunfield Hardwood

Hi everyone; I attended the rr tie seminar in Mi. last week and a fellow from this group called okiemac told me to check out this forum,man am I glad he did, Thanks. I've been trolling thru several years worth of posts and seems like people who get me, and look forward getting to know,I have a bandmill here in mid Michigan,I do some logging, custom sawing, and grade sawing of my own logs. okiemac, I have a freind nearby with a band saw who saws fulltime and we are going to combine our ties to make a load. we are going to great lakes logging expo, I've been to several and thought I was the only one who gets excited looking at logging and sawing equip.Thanks again for the invite to read and participate :)
2 international log trucks,woodmizer LT40 Super hyd, cat 910 frontloader, case 1845 skidloader,new holland 4x4 tracter with farmi whinch, lots of stihl saws, waiting to retire so I can spend even more time logging and sawing, yip-yip-yahoo

gary


chet

Sunfield,
There should be a few of us folks there at da congress. You'll have ta look out for da Forestry Forum hats and introduce yurself.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

dewwood

Welcome to the Forum!  Is that the same Sunfield where Quality has their mill?  

I am planning on attending the Logging Congress maybe we will run into each other, I will probably be wearing my FF hat along with a bunch of other people.  See you there.
Selling hardwood lumber, doing some sawing and drying, growing the next generation of trees and enjoying the kids and grandkids.

tnlogger

welcome aboard sunfield  coun't find a better place to call home  :)
gene

smwwoody

rod

I have a sample box of the 4degree silver tips sitting at the mill now but I have been sawing hickory and maple the last few days so I haven't tried them yet.  I will try them when I get back to some white oak.  I use white oak as my standard.  It is had enough that it gives stuff a good work out and it saws real consistant.   this makes it easyer to judge changes when you have a standard to go buy.

Woody

PS

Ron

  sory If I sounded a little snippy.  I get that way sometimes from Hickory  ;)
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

farmerdoug

Welcome Sunfield,  I think you will like it here.

I believe tie buyers are like any other company you sell too.  Their needs change with their orders.  I contacted Jeremy from Websters so I hope he will stop in to answer some questions.

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Jeff

Quote from: dewwood on August 30, 2005, 09:33:05 PMI will probably be wearing my FF hat along with a bunch of other people.  See you there.

Jeez Dewey, yer a heck of a generous guy, but I think I'd be telling that bunch of other people to get their own hats.  :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

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