Rail road tie sawing seminar in south east Michigan

[oakiemac]

I recieved a pamphlet from the DNR about a seminar that they are putting on in Whitemore lake, Michigan which is near Ann Arbor. The seminar looks pretty interesting and covers everything from log grading to the economics of rr tie sawing. There will be a sawmill demo and some actual hands on. Apparently the DNR is trying to find uses for the Ash that is being taken out due to the EAB.
I am planning on attending if anyone needs more info let me know. The date is August 23.

[Teddles]

Hey Oakiemac

Sounds interesting. Can you give us some more details? Or is there a website?

[jpad_mi]

Oakiemac,  I'd be interested in checking it out. Is it during the day, or in the evening. I'll PM you my email address; please send me some more info. Thanks in advance!

[oakiemac]

The seminar is during the day from 8am to 4pm. I left the info some where else so I'll have to post more info this evening.
I don't believe there is a website.

[oakiemac]

There is a website-www.semircd.org/ash

seminar outline:

Marketing opps and resource supply
log spec
overview of tie treating buisness
sawmill layout and ops
sawing ties
tie and lumber specs and grading
feasibility of sawing ties
log scaling and grading
sawmill demo
tie inspection
\
For more info you can call Jessica Simons 734-761-6722 ext105

[farmerdoug]

I signed up for the seminar.  Who else is going besides Oakiemac?

Farmerdoug

[jpad_mi]

I registered myself and my brother Brad. See you there!

Jeff

[TN_man]

Let us know what you guys learn. It sounds interesting.

[oakiemac]

Just got back from the seminar. Had a great time. Met FarmerDoug and jpad and his brother. The FF was well represented and I talked with a few other sawyers about the FF.

Things I learned in no particular order:
-The WM LT 70 with Cat diesel is a cool mill.
-Cutting RR ties can possibly be a profitable enterprise. I still need to crunch the numbers and figure a few things out. But a tie buyer was there and he showed us the ins and outs of tie making. They pay $18.75 for a 8'8" 7X9 tie and they will send out a truck to pick them up when you have about 200 ready. sounds like it could be a good deal for low grade logs.
-The EAB is nasty bug. I saw a lot of logs that were from dead Ash. This could be a huge problem in the US and Canada.\
-I need to spend more time figuring out cost, sawing times. material cost, labor and things like this to get a better grip on profitability or the lack thereof.
-There are a lot of small part time mill operators out there. Many more than on the forum. Most of them are pretty good guys.
-Those band millls spit out a very fine saw dust that likes to get into your coffee.

All in all, a good class and a good time.

[Bro. Noble]

We like sawing ties.  Even with good clear butt logs,  by the time you get down to 7X9 we are usually starting to run into defects.  Even the 6X8 ties at a little over $10 beats sawing them into pallet boards if you don't have a better market  You can also sell a lot of species for which there may not be a grade lumber market

[jpad_mi]

I really enjoyed the seminar. It was a great learning experience for a newbie like me. We looked at sawn ties and reviewed the Railroad Tie Association grading rules for each of the types of defects. They also touched on lumber grading, sawed a couple of logs, and reviewed the flitches for grade and to demonstrate how the defects move through the log.

It was nice to meet Oakiemac and FarmerDoug. They were great guys.

Oh, an interesting note : the number of RR ties needed by the RR Industry is expected to grow by 6% annually for the next 5yrs.

[oakiemac]

Bro Noble, what species does your tie buyer take?
The guy we talked to wants oak, hickory, ash, hard maple, hackberry, gum, cherry, walnut. Oak is by far the biggest tie material he said.
I was hoping to be able to use elm because we have a lot of dead elm in my area but they wont take the stuff.

As a side note any ash tie has to be 100% wane free if it comes from michigan and if it comes from a quarantine county then it has to have certification paper work with it.

[farmerdoug]

I enjoyd the Seminar too.  J_Pad and Oakiemac are great guys too.

I invited the tie buyer to log onto the forum and give everyone here a heads up on his tie buying and answer questions about ties too.  He gave us all booklets on the RTA tie specs that are pretty self explianiory.  He then showed us pics on the crap that mills send him and try to call then ties.  He pics up the shipping so they waste both his time and money.

Oakiemac, the RTA does allow elm but Webster does not buy it so I think that there maybe some that will.  The RTA allowable species are listed on the back of the second sheet of the folder that Jeremy gave us.

I also invited Rusty from the US Forest Service to log on with us too.  They can offer assistance with just about any questions from growing trees to sawing lumber.  They have offered lumber and log grading classes where we were and The Game of Logging also.  If they have enough interest they will do it again too.

Jeff B,
Rusty told me that they believe that the EAB could have been here since 1990 and that many of the hotspots popping up were already infected before the quarantine was implemented like you suggested.

Farmerdoug

[Bro. Noble]

Oakiemac,

When we first started selling ties,  the buyer told us they would take any hardwood except hackberry.  At the time we were cleaning off some pasture land and cut quite a few persimmon and sassafrass ties along with the oak,  hickory,  and sycamore that we usually cut.  They never complained about any species we cut until one winter we cut a bunch of trash trees from the river bottom.  After several loads,  they asked that we not bring anymore red maple,  box elder,  or elm.   

Sometimes they buy SYP ties,  but they are a little differenyt in their length and a little lower in price.

[oakiemac]

I think they will buy sycamore ties but he said the sycamore has a lot of ring shake generally and that causes problems. I don't know about sassafras, course I don't see too much of that stuff around here.

[Bro. Noble]

Shake is a problem with sycamores here also-----especially the older ones.  Shake ,  rot,  and big knots aren't allowed no matter the species.

[Kirk_Allen]

Any one have the contact information for getting one of those tie grading or spec books they handed out?

[oakiemac]

Kirk,
send me your address and I'll send you copies of the info. It includes the tie buyer and his phone number. He is very interested in buying as many ties as he can get his hands on.

[Buzz-sawyer]

The Union Pacific specs are good but the national gold standard is .......
Railway Tie Association and
the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance of Way Association,
I sent ya a copy.
Every singe buyer out there will have different specs and species , which can change due to demand and thier buyers current specs.I.E 75% oak and hickory 25% mixed hardwoods.

[Ron Wenrich]

We have been sawing ties for nearly 25 years.  They pay us $1 extra for oak vs the mixed hardwoods.  We can also send a 7x8 tie.  Our buyer will also buy 8' ties. 

They will take anything except tulip poplar, aspen and anything that is deemed too soft.  I've snuck in a few ailanthus.  Sycamore, elm , beech, maple, ash, sassafras, oak and about anything else we can throw in.

Also, look into switch ties.  10' stock doesn't pay much, but we saw up to 22'.  The long ones were fetching $750/Mbf.

Things to remember about doing costs.  A 7x9 tie will saw down to a 4x6 cant and 16 +/- bf of lumber.  If you are getting $380/Mbf for blocking, your blocking is worth about $6.  You have to make $12.50 in 16 bf just to break even.  1 Com red oak is down to $625/Mbf and 2 Com is $500.  Pull one board that is below grade, and you lost money.  Better to keep it in a tie.

[TN_man]

Ron,
Will most tie buyers buy those switch ties? and are those 7x9 as well? ???

[tnlogger]

TN_man there is a place in Morrison that buys ties and they take swith ties also 7x9,7x8 and 6x8's
they used to be a place in Crab Orchard that bought but i dont know if it's still open
I'll do some checking and get you some phone numbers and price sheets.

[ckburnett]

   I heard about this forum at the tie seminar.   Has anybody considered getting together and and combining to get the 200 hundred ties for a truck load?    CKB

[tnlogger]

ckburnett first welcome to the best forum there is and remember we likes lots of pics  :D
on the tie question some one should be along in a bit.
oh yeah one more thing do ya like GRITS  :D

[DonE911]

Welcome to the forum....  I don't know a thing about tie's or if there is a buyer for them in my area, so wait for someone else..... 

Even if'n ya don't like grits... just say how much you DO ;D ;D

[Furby]

Welcome CKB!
I almost went to the seminar, but didn't.
I guess if several people were to combine forces for the 200 ties, you wouldn't want to be too far away from each other with the way gas prices are. Roughly where are you located?

[TN_man]

Gene,
I would appreciate any information you could get me. Crab Orchard is not a far piece from me. Currently I take mine to Oak Ridge area.
Thanks,
Jeff

[ckburnett]

Tnlogger,   My mother was from Lawrenceburg, Tenn; father from northern Alabama.   Strong family roots in Georgia.  Dozens of confederate soldiers in the families.   Is that enough grits for ya?  My yard is in Union City, MI.  I live just west of Ann Arbor.  CKB

[tnlogger]

cbk anyone with ties to the place where they make the best sipping drink is plenty good enough for me  :D

jeff i'll see if I can get a number for you. If you get down that way when you come in from crossville on the old rd. the rail side was on your left as you get into town.  Like i said not sure if he's still there but i'll check

[Ron Wenrich]

You should be able to get a list of tie buyers from your state forestry department.  Most of them have a sawmills or forest products division.

I don't see why you couldn't start a co-op for ties.  You might want to do it with other products, such as lumber or pallet wood.  But, trucking will cut into your profit margin.

[oakiemac]

Ckburnett,
Nice talking with you at the seminar. I think I was a the same lunch table as you.

I am interested in co-oping for the ties if you are. The only problem would be getting them together in one place for the truck to come pick up. I can't remember, do you have a mill right now or were you looking into getting one?

[Rod]

I can buy logs at $250m,can you cut ties at that price and make any money?Oh,and the ties here for mix goes for $18 the last time I asked the tie buyer.$20 for oak,and the don't pay for shipping.

[Ron Wenrich]

No shipping??     I don't know of any company that doesn't pay shipping, unless they don't need ties. 

$250/Mbf on what scale?  If its on Doyle, you'll do OK.  If you're on Scribner or International, not as well.  With your manual mill, your production costs are higher than a circle mill. 

You also have to watch what kind of logs they dump on you, unless you do the scaling.  Not every log will make a tie.  Those that won't are worth even less. 

[Rod]

Ron,its on the Doyle and can you run some numbers by me so I can see the profit?

And most around here haul there ties up to the tie buyer at Gassaway WV.

[Rod]

OK,the way I've got it fiurd I get 42 cents a foot for ties and 25 cents a foot fr the boards coming off the sides.A 12'' log has 32 feet,and the log cost is 25 cents a foot x 32 =$8 and I can sell the tie for $18,sounds good to me.

[HORSELOGGER]

Why dont you just go ahead and just do it and see how it works for your self? Nobody can gurantee that an enterprise will work for you , if the numbers look good to you than at some point the rubber has to meet the road.  :

[Rod]

HORSELOGGER ,i thought i'd check the numbers first because i have to buy 10,000 feet at a time and he said he'd give me 10 days to pay him back.And $2500 is alot of money to me,I didnt want t do alot of work just to go in the hole.I was just wordering why know one else around here was doing it.

[Jeff]

Welcome to the forum ckburnett. Dont pay ANY attention to the g rits talk. The control center is up here in Harrison Michigan where we feed puppies to something worth eating. Every once in a while I change every instance of the mention of g rits on the forum to something else. In fact, I think I'll do that for a while today. ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

Rod

You're thinkg about it in the right way.  But, the logger isn't going to be bringing you only 12" logs.  As the log gets bigger, your log price vs tie price gets to have different ratios.

What I have done in the past is to draw a diagram of a log at different sizes.  Then see what I can get from the sides cuts.  That gives me an idea what I can get from a log.  Use yous 7x9 as a basis, then add the boards to the outside.

A few other things also are helpful.  One is a time study.  How long does it take you to make a cut?  I know that I can cut about 5-6 lines/minute with my headrig.  Yours is much slower. 

You can also figure out how long it takes you to saw a 12" log, 13" log, etc.  That should include your loading time and edging time.  Then you can get a realistic sawing expense.

For me, I can run through a 12" log in 1 1/2 minutes, cutting down to a 7x9.   I will also a board that might have an average price of $2.  Total lumber value would be $22.  Log costs were $8.  If my sawing costs are $2.50/minute, then my roduction costs would be $3.75...round up to $4. 

Bottom line is lumber value - log costs - production cost =  profit.  $22-$8-$4=$10/log.  Not every log will yield that, and some will be produced at a loss.  Residue value should also be figure up.

What every mill has to do is figure out which logs they can produce a profit and which ones they can't.  If you do too many loss logs, you'll be out of business.

The only thing that most mills have any control over is production costs.  Lumber value and log costs are usually a function of markets.  As long as your production costs lie within the difference between lumber value and log costs, you'll make money.

[FiremanEd]

Also talk to your tie buyers about 'bridge timbers". These are larger diminsion ties. Usually 8" or 10" on the narrow side by 9" to 14" on the wide sides and usually 10' long. We find that leaving the cants as large as possible is the best way to go w/ todays lumber prices. (we cut a lot of red oak....  >:( ) Also the longer 7x9's that Ron refered too pay very good. $750/m for 7x9's pays the sawyer pretty well.

Most of these timbers and longer switch ties must have less wain and be more solid than standard cross ties. One buyer recently told a friend of mine that he needed cross ties so bad that if it didn't roll when it landed on the green chain he'd buy it. Of course he was joking,,, to a point. They will buy some pretty rough cross ties though, from what I see when we make deliveries to the buyer.

[Rod]

Thanks Ron,I was trying t figure out what to cut differnest size logs into.I figured I'd cut 12-15'' into 1 tie per log.Now the 16''-19'' i think i can get 2 ties per log,and 20-23'' 3 ties per log,and I think I'll ask him not to bring nothing bigger then 23''.I was wondering if I might be better to cut the 20-23'' log into maybe 6x8 or 7x8.

I know once I get this stuff figured out it will be easy is pie..If I can get a few 4x6 cants they go for $320 a 1000 feet,which is alot less then the ties at $420 a 1000 feet.

I say I could load and cut a 12'' log into a tie 10 minutes or less i think.I'd say about 4 minutes or less cutting 4 cuts.

I can cut 400 feet an hour of 1'' boards if the logs are 20'' or bigger.


Thanks FiremanEd ,i'll check in to the longer ties also.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Its true buyers WILL buy some ugly stuff when they are hungry.............BUT remember when the market dies down , they WILL remember you if unloaded trash in your tie bundles........and they will reject ya a bunch or not buy from ya .

[Rod]

And I was trying to figure up my sawing expense.The little bit of eletric and I think the blade cost is about 1 cent per foot is what I what heard from others who have run the numbers.So I think about $1 per hour sounds about right.That is if I did my figuring right.

[oakiemac]

Rod, unless I'm mistaken you can only get one tie per log. I asked the buyer about that and he said they must be heart centered or as much as possible.

[Rod]

oakiemac ,the tie buyers around here are different I guess they your tie buyers.

Buzz,the tie buyers here will send someone to teach how they want there ties cut

[oakiemac]

Anyone else able to get more then one tie per log? Maybe I misunderstood him. ???

[Buzz-sawyer]

t"he tie buyers around here are different I guess they your tie buyers"

I got NEWZ for ya .....They ALL sell to the same people....Oakie IS right, You ought to listen.


Oakie, you can cut more ties around the heart tie if it has no heart in it.....either all heart or no heart.......so we are talking bigger logs to get more than one tie out ;)

[Rod]

oakiemac ,I think the reason most mills cut 1 tie per log is there isn't any easy way to get more the 1 out of a log.

Buzz,that might be true,but the buyer told me differnt,and if he wants them that way,who am I to agure with the buyer?

[Rod]

Here is a list of the local treatmunet plants I called.

http://www.wvforestry.com/Treating%20Plants.DIR.pdf

[FiremanEd]

Rod,


Like Buzz said either a boxed heart or no heart. Woody regularly gets 2 or more out of low grade logs. He'll take a 18" log, slab it to 9" w/ the heart centered. Then clean up the 3rd side, take a tie, roll to side 4 clean it up and take a tie. This leaves a few inches of heart wood on the deck that he makes pallet boards or cants out of. If the log will clean up a clean 9x21.4" cant you can then take 3 easy ties off of that. On a log that large you may be able to take 2 more off, 1 off each side of the 9x21. This takes work but can be done.

If you're in Oak you're much better putting this sized log into 'bridge timbers' of larger dimensions if you can get that market lined up. Most buyers only like bridge timbers out of oak though. (Koppers will sometimes take them out of anything but sycamore)

I have to brag for Woody, he got 7 - 7x9 switch ties out of a huge sycamore log a couple weeks ago and had the heart centered in the center tie. I wasn't in the mill house when he did it to see how he did it but I saw the ties from the 2 sycamore logs I'd loaded on the deck. I don't remember the measurement on that log but it was huge, he got 5 ties out of the 2nd log up the tree.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Rod


Ties with 1/2 heart???????

splitting the heart to get 2 out of a small log?????????

Your TIE buyer AINT selling to the railroads.

[FiremanEd]

Rod,

I'm not sure where you're at but Burke-Parsons-Bowlby has a plant just off of I-64 just inside of Va from the WV line.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Eddie
Man that Woody is a sawing dickens :D :D :D :D
It comes from sawing on his custom verticle cut woody-mizer I recon ;) :D
Like I was saying to deadhead yesterday...maximizing a big log takes strategery.............

[Rod]

FiremanEd ,thanks,I'm in Clay West Virginia,its right in the middle of West Virginia,about 100 miles anyway I go  i'll end up in another state  :D

Buzz,I don't know who they sell the ties too,but there are big plies of ties at the treatmet plant loaded on trailers moving out going some were aftr there treated.

[Rod]

buzz,they did tel me not to split the heart dead in the middle tho ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't make a habit of splitting ties.  One thing that they did specify was no quartered sycamore.  Getting 7 from a big sycamore may be OK, but they know where they came from when they unload the bundles at the treeatment plant. 

As Buzz said, when they need lots of ties, they'll take anything.  When they don't, you'll be dumped.  I always go for quality.  I always sell ties.

Cutting bridge is OK, as long as the price is right.  Just because its a big piece does not warrant leaving FAS on a bridge timber.  A lot depends on log quality.  Bridge orders aren't all that steady.  I haven't seen one in quite some time, and I cut most of the bridges.

I recently had an order for 4x10 or 12, 5x10 or 12, & 6x10 or 12.  All of it was 8'.  Price was $900/Mbf.  I could cut just about anything into it.  Order was for 30 Mbf.  It paid better than ties.

Rod:  your mill costs have to be more than $1/hr.  No one works for free.  All costs must go into your calculations, including depreciation.  Figuring labor as a no cost item won't work. 

You will have fixed costs like depreciation, rent (even if its to yourself), taxes, etc.  You will also have variable costs like blades, fuel, etc.  You eventually have to get new blades.  Most bandmill figures I hear are more in the line of $250/Mnf.  I don't run a band, so I'm not sure.

[WH_Conley]

Grade log market around here is getting tight, so I am plenty of good tie logs. Tried buying by bf and got large logs with junk lumber that I couldn't give away. Had more in some logs than the tie brought. Started buying at $10.00 per log, regardless of size, as long as it makes a tie, otherwise $150.00 per thousand or put it back on the truck, loggers option. Pallet mills are giving 120-180. If they are small they go on the lower end. This figures on a good tie log 12 inches and straight at 250, 13 inches 200, 14 inches 160. Doyle rule. If the logger will take the time to watch and seperate the logs he will make more money. Big low grade to pallet mill, small to me. Must be working, I just started doing this in the last month and picked up several new suppliers.

Used to be able to sell at BPB concentration yard without a heart, only place to sell around here now is Koppers and they want a heart in all ties

[Rod]

Ron,i didn't know you ment man and the mill.I was just figureing in what it cost to run the mill it self.And what does the ''n'' in Mnf stand for?And if I count depreciation on my sawmill shed then when or if I ever sale the place I'd have to figure that it in on the sell price.And the $4000 depreciation on the mill wouldn't count to much in the total cost of things I wouldnt think.Now for the labor on sawing,I'd figure maybe $25 and hour..But I think I've heard that a band blade last about 2000 feet before they break but I've never broke one yet so I dont know. .$20 for a band blade that last 2000 feet comes to 1 cent a foot,or there abouts.

What I don't understand is with those steel plates covering the ends of the ties how can anyone tell that part of the tree it came from?And with all that black tar all over it and thos guesset plates on the ends?

Conley,I my try buying logs your way and see what happens

[FiremanEd]

Ron,

I agree 100% that they know who the ties came from (they paint our name on the bundles going to BPB)and we to only send out solid clear ties. Both BPB and Koppers are buying from use weekly and I have an open order from both for bridge timbers. One want's the 8x's and the other want's 10x's. Both buyers are calling us so I guess they're more than happy w/ what we're sending them.

That was a smoking order you had for the smaller timbers!!

[Ron Wenrich]

Yep, those small orders are real nice when you can get them.  It was for a road building project down the road.  I gave them some 6x12x16 hickory, which they cut in half.  They said they had some "big boys" that could handle the big stuff.   ;D

Rod:   Mnf should have been Mbf.  Misprint.  You must figure all costs.  The mill up the road has to do that.  So do you to remain competitive.  I usually figure a base salary and multipy by 1.5  to cover the extras like social security, workman's comp, etc.  That might even be a little low.  Your $25/hr comes out to a little over $16/hr.  

[smwwoody]

Ron

I've benn sawing for and selling ties to BPB since 1986.  If you mention my name to any of the owners Or the plant manager or the grader in the DuBois plant they will tell you that as long as they are buying they will buy any tie or timber I saw sight unseen.  I have a very good rep for quality with them.  The dumping junk on them goes both ways..  when you saw good ties for them they will help you get rid of a little junk sometimes.  A good tie buyer will let you know how the market is and what they can take and when.  you have to work with them and they will treat you well for the long run.

Woody

[jpad_mi]

I'm about a day late on this, but... you're right Oakiemac, Jeremy said boxed heart only, one tie per log.

Another interesting tidbit from the seminar : they are paying the same amount for 7x9 grade ties (8' 6"), 7x9-10' switch ties, and 7x9-12' switch ties. If you're sending in 12foot switch ties, you're losing profit potential.  Instead of loading two 12 ft switch ties on the truck that bring $36.50, lop them off at 8'6" and throw another on the truck to get paid $54.75.  You're not getting paid for the extra 4 feet of tie, and it eats up some of the trailers weight capacity. 

[FiremanEd]

Jpad,

I'm don't understand why they're not paying you more for the longer ties,,, they're selling them for more....

Koppers and BPB both pay well for the extra lengths. We're getting $18.75, 21, 21.50, and 26.75 for 8'9", 9'6", 10'6" & 12'6" 7x9's.

I wouldn't thing regional differences would make that much difference on the tie market.

[jpad_mi]

It's the current supply and demand at his plant (Wisconsin). The tie buyer said he can't get enough of the 8'6" grade ties, and apparently has too many 10's and 12's. I think he said they end up cutting the 10's and 12' down to 8'6".

I guess the moral of the story is know what your getting paid for each length so you can make tradeoffs as necessary. The prices you quoted seem a lot more reasonable.

[Rod]

I think it takes 3000 ties to go a mile,so I think thats the reason they keep runing out of the 8 footers.Tie buyers around here will send a price list there giving for ties.

[Ron Wenrich]

woody

I've been sawing ties since '82.  They put everyone on quotas in '84, since the market was so bad.  My buyer doesn't give me any rejects and will buy mixed hdwds at the oak price on occassion.  You got your reputation by producing good ties.  Those that produce junk also get a reputation.

I think the markets are different in each locale.  The 10' & 12' switch sell for the same price.  So, I just cut them back, if the log warrants it.  Bridge orders have not been plentiful.  Switch ties from 13'-23' are usually pretty good.  The price on the longer ones is really good.  But, those markets can come and go.

With oak markets going south, oak production will fkiw over to the tie market.  That will keep prices steady.

[Rod]

Hi woody,I was wondering if you have tried the new woodmizer sliver tip blades yet?

[Sunfield Hardwood]

Hi everyone; I attended the rr tie seminar in Mi. last week and a fellow from this group called okiemac told me to check out this forum,man am I glad he did, Thanks. I've been trolling thru several years worth of posts and seems like people who get me, and look forward getting to know,I have a bandmill here in mid Michigan,I do some logging, custom sawing, and grade sawing of my own logs. okiemac, I have a freind nearby with a band saw who saws fulltime and we are going to combine our ties to make a load. we are going to great lakes logging expo, I've been to several and thought I was the only one who gets excited looking at logging and sawing equip.Thanks again for the invite to read and participate

[gary]

hello Sunfield     8)

[chet]

Sunfield,
There should be a few of us folks there at da congress. You'll have ta look out for da Forestry Forum hats and introduce yurself.

[dewwood]

Welcome to the Forum!  Is that the same Sunfield where Quality has their mill?  

I am planning on attending the Logging Congress maybe we will run into each other, I will probably be wearing my FF hat along with a bunch of other people.  See you there.

[tnlogger]

welcome aboard sunfield  coun't find a better place to call home 

[smwwoody]

rod

I have a sample box of the 4degree silver tips sitting at the mill now but I have been sawing hickory and maple the last few days so I haven't tried them yet.  I will try them when I get back to some white oak.  I use white oak as my standard.  It is had enough that it gives stuff a good work out and it saws real consistant.   this makes it easyer to judge changes when you have a standard to go buy.

Woody

PS

Ron

  sory If I sounded a little snippy.  I get that way sometimes from Hickory  ;)

[farmerdoug]

Welcome Sunfield,  I think you will like it here.

I believe tie buyers are like any other company you sell too.  Their needs change with their orders.  I contacted Jeremy from Websters so I hope he will stop in to answer some questions.

Farmerdoug

[Jeff]

I will probably be wearing my FF hat along with a bunch of other people.  See you there.

Jeez Dewey, yer a heck of a generous guy, but I think I'd be telling that bunch of other people to get their own hats. 

[Furby]

 :D :D :D
I was gonna ask how big that hat was.

[Rod]

OK woody.I didn't have any white oak to test the new blade on but I cut up some hard maple and it cut that up real fast.But,thats the first 1 1/2 blade i have ever ran on my mill.So now I don't know if it was the blade or it being 1 1/2 that made it cut so much faster.

I'll wait and see what you say.