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LT 300 Upgrade (or was it a down grade?)

Started by smwwoody, July 29, 2005, 07:35:59 PM

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smwwoody

Well it was time to have the steel band wheels recrowned agian on the 300.  They need to be done every 300 hrs of sawing.  When Eddie called to get a new set sent out ( wood mizer does and exchange on them ) they talked him into going with thier new up grade..   The new upgrade is suposed to save money by not recrowning every 3 to 4 months.  The up grade is the same wheels with a grove cut in them for a V belt.  so in the last 2 weeks the new wheels have cut my production in about half, almost shook the mill apart, upped my band breakage by 10 times, and I cant cut a good board.  Wood mizers support is the greatest support out there and they are being very helpful with all the problems.  They have totally stopped even the smallest amount of vibration with a simple little vibration damper.  and have sent a few differnt sets of belts to try.  Next week they are sending a shim for the air bag.  I will get into more detail tonight.

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
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Bibbyman

Were the new wheels sent out for field test?  Or did WM think they had a working, tested product?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

smwwoody

They are a working tested product .  they are what they use on the new 300's

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
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Tom

I would be interested in the history of Wood Mizer's change from crowned steel to V belts.

Please let us know how the upgrade ends up.   It's not much of a step forward if you lose production, is it?  :)

Bibbyman

I've never sawn on anything but the Wood-Mizer LT40 with V-belts and not really had much of a problem.  Then one time last summer I noticed some vibration and additional noise – kind of like a freight train chugging along. 

I didn't know what was going on until I noted when the blade was about to stop the nettle on the blade tension gauge would wiggle just a little.  I got to looking and found a gob of gunk (sawdust/bark?) had built up under the v-belt on the drive side.  I cleaned that out and everything smoothed out.  I had to do it a couple of times shortly after that and then the problem just went away. 

I don't know why after 11 years of sawing on three mills and many thousands of hours it just decided to gunk up but it did.  Now I notice some vibration every once in a while and then it'll smooth back out. 

I've also found gunk wedged in the drive pulley.  I've also found my main drive belt with a 5" chunk ripped off all three "Vs" of the belt at the same place.  Changed the belt and that made things run much better.

Are the belts tight on the pulley or are the loose like using the B57 belts on an LT40?


Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

lamar

I noticed a little spot where my tire(v belts tight on 19" wheels) on idler side humped up.This was when I first got it. I took tire off and checked it with a dial ind. it was close +- .005 .What I noticed was (marked bad spot) where my marks were is where they drilled balance holes in the bottom of the v groove.I then dialed the v groove sides and also miked across and apparently what happened was they took finished cuts then drilled holes (a bunch of them about 2+" worth) It seems that the sides closed in(stress relief) which would be ok for what that belt pulley was meant for.I put old (new) belt back on and wrapped a heavy ratchet strap around it with max pressure on hump.Ive been running is about 4yrs. and its ok but its not right :-\

gmmills

Woody,

    I have 25" belted wheels on my LT 70.  I have no problems with vibration. There is a vibration damping disk mounted between the drive pulley and the driven band wheel.  I think if your replacement wheels are patterned after the LT 70's you shouldn't be having these kinds of issues.

    My blade flex life is great with these wheels. I have been running 75 - 80 lbs of pressure in the air bag when tensioned.   Had only one blade fail prematurely. Broke at the weld. Most of my blades have been sharpened as many as 15 times and getting too narrow.

    I think you have been sent a pair of wheels that have not been balanced properly or are out of round. If they are out of round the vibration will be transferred directly to the blade. this can cause major blade breakage problems.  Take a magnet mounted dial indicator and check the wheels for out of round.

    You should not be having these issues with a work tested upgrade. Maybe they have upgraded a few more parts as a revision on a later model 300 and have neglected to get Ed all the parts needed. Just a thought.
Good luck to you and Ed. This type of frustration none of us need.

   
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

Swede

My saw mill has 20" V-belt wheels. After sawing for a while and some broken blades I took them tight fiting B-ropes off and put SPB 1600 ropes on. They have a higher profile, they also are longer so they can leave the wheels.
When changing the blade I also take a look at the V-belt and the wheels. If there is any saw dust or other build up on the wheels I take it away.

Bad bearings also makes vibrations and make blades breaking. Have changed from bearings with 2 screws for fastening on the shaft to bearings with conic sleeves. I think that´s the only way to get the shaft good centered.
Can´t remember I´ve  had any vibrations after doing my "updates"

And no (Monkey-) blades has broken yet after I made my own guides! Think it has to happen real soon. :D

Swede.



Had a mobile band sawmill, All hydraulics  for logs 30\"x19´, remote control. (sold it 2009-04-13)
Monkey Blades.Sold them too)
Jonsered 535/15\". Just cut firewood now.

smwwoody

Bibby the belts are loose and I have changed them 4 times trying new ones WM has sent us.  no build up under the belts

Tom

They said that this was a more cost effective  way to go...



Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

D._Frederick

Its been a couple years ago at a show that I noticed that WM on the LT 300 had changed from a solid band wheel to a Vee belt pulley. When I ask why was told that the "crowns" were wearing off and was causing to much down time. Said the Vee belts were a better field fix than sending the solid wheel to be re-crowned.

smwwoody

D

That is the same reason they gave us.  They are not useing a v belt pulley.  It is the same steel band wheel that had the crown but they have had a v groove cut into it .

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

VA-Sawyer

Have they replaced the wheels yet ? If all the problems started with the 'new' wheels and you haven't been able to correct it with new belts, then I would insist on a different set of wheels. Have them send you a 'known good' set for testing purposes.

Buzz-sawyer

Hi Woody
Seems simple to me the old way was LOTS better...get your wheel
s back............. :)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

gmmills

   What style of blade guides does your 300 have? The earlier mills a guide system that consisted of sandwich style guide blocks and roller bearing mounted horizontally that acted as a roller guide for the back edge of the blade. The mill I looked at had steel crowned wheels. This system used no downward deflection of the blade through the guide system. The blade depended on the crown of the wheels to run stable in the cut with the sandwich guide blocks helping control blade deviation.

     My LT 70's wheels run a inserted belt. The blade guides on the 70 are similar to the earlier 300's guides,but not the same. The Lt 70 guides use a WM blade guide roller to deflect the blade downward 1/4" prior to the blade going through the sandwich style guide blocks on the blade guide arm side. On the drive wheel side the blade passes through the guide blocks and then another roller guide.  With this system the blade is stabilized buy the guide roller and not the belted wheel. If you are using a belted  blade wheel with out any downward deflection at the guides,in my opinion, your cut quality will suffer.
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

smwwoody

GM

We upgraded to the new guides when we put the belted wheels on.  I really think it is time to go back to the steel wheels and old style guides.  In the 15 or so years that I have been messing with small band, band mills I have never seen a belted wheel that can compair to the quality Of a true crowned steel band wheel.  Cut for cut I would put that LT 300 (with steel wheels on it) Up agianst any small band, band mill on the market.  With the belted wheels on it it is just another band mill.  on average I saw 32000bf of mixed hard wood per week on it.  the 32000 feet is not a freek thing it would do it week in and week out.  We are giving wood mizer a few more days to to correct the problem then it is back to the real thing.  This problem is not only dipping into eddies pocket real hard (which I dont like because if eddie isnt makeing money I don't have a job), but it is dipping into my  pocket too.  Usually every week I have an extra tractor trailer load of red oak cut that I deliver to West Virginia over the wekend. this makes for a nice little extra in the check.  this week the load wasnt there...


Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
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smwwoody

I have to say this agian Wood Mizer has the greatest support I have ever worked with bar non.  they are next day airing us parts to try to solve our problem.  today we got shims to put under the band tension air bag.  It was a good try.  I realy thought it might help.  but they made no differance...  our problem really seems like a band tension problem but nothing we do is helping. 

do any of you that are running v belt wheels have problems with sawdust build up- under the belts? If so how do you deal with it?

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Tom

Yep, I occasionly had problems with certain species.  Cypress was bad about getting sawdust under the belt on the power wheel.   It was usually a softer wood that contained a lot of moisture that caused th problem.  It would pack under there like "beaver board".

I couldn't stop it because it was so intermittant.   I had to take my knife out and clean the wheel when I "heard the roar".   (look on the knowledge base 'hear that bandmill roar')
:)

Percy

Heya SMwoody.
If the problem is sawdust/crap getting under your V belts, try a tight one. I had to do that with my 70 as it seemed to have the same problem as you when I first got it. If your wheels are the same size as mine, a B72 fits snugly enuff to keep the crap from building up under it yet loose enuff that you dont learn a bunch of new words, putting them on :D :D :D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Jason_WI

If these wheels were machined to have the Vee groove in them maybe they are not machined to the center of the hub and are out of round. A dial indicator with a magnetic mount would determine this. If the machinest used a 3 jaw chuck to turn these this could be your problem. 3 jaw chucks are not 100% center. Only way to get it 100% on center is using a 4 jaw chuck.

IF your sawing 32k feet a week you dont have time to fart around with this "upgrade". I would heve kept my old wheels and had them send out the new wheels as demo only. Hindsight is 20/20....... :-\

Jason
Norwood LM2000, 20HP Honda, 3 bed extentions. Norwood Edgemate edger. Gehl 4835SXT

GF

I would check with a dial indicator first for true roundness at several points. 

My next question would be what the hardness of the metal is they are using in the band wheels, recrowning them every 3-4 months seems a little extreme to me.  Also when the metal blade is running around the metal band wheel it would also be interesting to see if there is some heat buildup causing the wheel to get out of round.

Might try running the saw for awhile getting the band wheels heated up somewhat and then check them for roundness with a dial indicator.  I would also be curious to see what the hardness of the metal in the bandwheel is.  Just some ideas.

tnlogger

 I dont know 32000 a wk =384000 thousand in 3 mnths and 768000 in 6 mnths now then if you take an average of 900 bf to a blade that means you change blades a total of 853.33 time in 6 months.
that there is a whole lota sawing in any bodys book.  :D
gene

smwwoody

tnlogger

If you doubt my 32000 / week you are welcome to come and watch me saw any time you wish.  I saw monday through friday 7:00am to 6:00pm lunch is from 12 noon till 1:00pm.   I could also be there any other time that would fit your schedule.  You should redo your math with an average of 2000 to 3000 bf per band change.  that is closer to what I am running in oak it is not quite as good in hickory.  Your math fits closer to what we are getting with the belted wheels.  that is one of our problems with the belted wheels.  This is not a hobby mill.  it is a industrial quality production small band band mill. Wood Mizer clames it is capable of producing 10000bf pef 10 hour day that is with a back up sawyer to step in when the head sawyer needs a break.  I don't doubt it one little bit.  I have had 10 hour days well over 8000 feet with out a back up sawyer.   

The out of round Idea sounds like the best one to me.  but as jason said we dont have time to fart around with it.  we did keep the old wheels but the crown is gone so they are no good to put back on.  the new ones were a tested working product from a great copany like wood mizer so we had no reason to doubt that they would work for us.

Have I said lately What a  8) GREAT! 8) copany Wood mizer is?  They told us today they are sending us a new set of crowned wheels to run while they try to figure out what our problem is.

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
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tnlogger

 :D woody i wasn't doughting ya i was complementing ya i know what a lt300 can do  8)
as far as the band changes go thats fantastic.
gf said
My next question would be what the hardness of the metal is they are using in the band wheels, recrowning them every 3-4 months seems a little extreme to me.
3 or 4 months for you is like a year or more for most of us  ;D
gene

Tom

I'll bet a local machine shop could recrown your wheels too.

smwwoody

Tom

I had the same thought too. but wood mizer had them set up on an exchange program where you call them and tell them you need a new set of wheels.  they ship the new ones out you swap them for the old ones and send them back this made for very short down time.  We just ended up getting somethig that didn't work for us and it messed things up.

tn logger

sorry I took that the wrong way it has just been a little frustrating with all the fartting around.

We love them 4 degree WM blades

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
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McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
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FiremanEd

Hey guys, haven't been on in a couple weeks.

Just a few thoughts on what we've been experiencing lately.

1st and formost, the Customer Service from WM is absolutely the best I have EVER experienced. Gary and J.B. at WM are falling over backwards to fix this issue. If this was a product of any other company that I've ever dealt with (sawmill or otherwise) they would have hung up on Woody and I by now. Instead they're calling us 2-4 times a day checking on our status. Sending us stuff to try to remediate the problem. They are truely concerned with fixing this problem, ASAP.

Yesterday J.B. suggested that since we'd tried a lot of things and none were working that he send me a set of newly crowned wheels to have on hand incase I decided to go back to them. He's overnighting a set of 100lb wheels to me at no charge. That's customer service!!

We made 2 changes when we did this upgrade. We went from the sandwich only blade guides w/ a backing roller to guides w/ hold down rollers and we went from crowned wheels to belted wheels. The next step is going to be to put newly crowned wheels on w/ the holddown rollers and diagnose which of these were/are causing the problem. Then maybe we can figure out where to go from there. J.B. is as concerned about our bottom line as much as he is about fixing the problem and is genuinely concerned w/ not being able to get this fixed. We're gonna probably try the crowned wheels tomorrow morning and see what happens.

Some questions above were to the longevity of the wheels needing to be recrowned every 3 months. At 1st I had the same reaction but, in that  3 months Woody put over 300 hours on the mill and produced on average 4 trailer loads of lumber a week, that's 52 - 8,000+bf trailer loads or 416,000 bf of lumber. A set of $600 wheels isn't unreasonable for what they produced, we average around $1,000 a month in blade costs so $200 in wheels isn't that bad.

As to belted vs. crowned, I don't really care. I can make a good argument for both from what I've seen. I do know that WM has put a LOT of R&D into this question and determined that the belts work good on their new LT300's. I don't question that decision at all and would not hesitate to order a WM w/ belted wheels. I also know from past experiences that when you try to change a good thing it doesn't always work out as planned. As the old cliche' says "if it aint broke, don't fix it".  As Buzz said "get your wheels back".

This has been a little frustrating for Woody and myself but that's life. We'll get it fixed this week (we know what freshly crowned wheels and the original sandwich blade guides will do!) and go on from there. We're still 2 of Wood Mizer's biggest supporters and I will say without hesitation that any future mills for me will be Wood-Mizer grey green!!

Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

gmmills

Ed,

  You and Woody keep us posted on the progress. My LT 70 has the roller style guides with sandwich pads . I think I would check the rollers to make sure they are are ground perfectly round. If they are out of round they will cause some cutting issues. The rollers that came on my mill were 1 1/4" rollers which I believe are WM's standard for this guide system using 1 1/2" blades. The first thing I did was to change the 1 1/4" rollers to a 1 1/2" rollers. I like the performance of the 1 1/2" rollers with 1 1/2" blades. An 1 1/2" roller contacts 1/4" more width of the band body. This distributes the down pressure more evenly across the width of the blade. In my opinion makes the blade more stable. The more stable the blade the better the cutting performance. You may want to try them.
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

smwwoody

Ed

If you park a new green one beside the gray one you can have the greenie.  I don't like change.

remember when you order that green one make it a left handed one so we can drag race all day long  ;D

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

customsawyer

I don't get on here as often as I would like to so I'm a little slow in my reply. I run the LT 40 and I have gone to the smaller belts on it also I use a B-56 belt on both wheels drive and idler. I cut alot of different types of wood and hard and soft but my biggest trouble comes when I'm sawing wood that has dried a bit, seems like that fine dry sawdust floats around behind the covers and then gets under the belts. SYP seems to give me most of the trouble when it is dry because there is enough pitch left in it that it really sticks to the wheel. This post might be a day late and a dollar short.
Best of luck.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

smwwoody

Well Saturday Eddie put the new steel wheels on that wood mizer sent.

I can't waite to get my fingers on it monday morning to see if it is back 8)

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

tnlogger

Woody glad to hear it. I know you and ED both have been beating you heads against the wall over this.
Woodmizer has one of the best support teams i know of so i know this has been bothering them to.
When the weather cools down i have ya on my list for a road trip. I want to see that bad boy in action  ;D
gene

FiremanEd

I made a couple quick cuts w/ it Sat and it appears to be back to what we're used to. The proof will be about 8 tomorrow morning after Woddy's got an hour on the blade to heat everything up and see what it's doing then.

Once again I want to say that Woodmizer has been GREAT through all of this. JB and Gary are still working on this and I'm sure will figure it out. In the mean time we're running the steel wheels and making some lumber.

Orange, grey or green. Woodmizer is the way to go!!!!!   

Ed
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

FiremanEd

Gene,

Come on over anytime. If you're waiting on a cool time it might be a while though....   

We're looking forward to your visit.


Ed
Full time Firefighter / Paramedic
WoodMizer LT300 as secondary, full time job.
AccuTrac Electric Edger

smwwoody

Well  The 300 is back to being a real cuting machine 8)
I ran it untill about 10:30 AM with the steel wheels and the roller guides it worked great.  then a bearing in the roller guides froze up.  We put the old sandwich guids back on and went right back to macking boards.  We have it fixed.  Now I hope we can help Wood Mizer figure out why the belted wheels would not work on this mill...  the are a great copany and I am sure they will do what ever it takes to find what the problem was.  They are going to put the belted wheels that we have on one of thier test mills to see what they can find.

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

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