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Supreme Court Favors Private Development Over Property Rights

Started by jrdwyer, June 23, 2005, 12:51:58 PM

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jrdwyer

This was a topic of discussion a while back. Here is the latest news:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-23-scotus-property_x.htm

I totally disagree with the final decision by the court. The vote was close, so I guess the court also seems divided. I will have to contact my local and state politicians to see if we have laws to prevent such takings. If not, then I will try to promote the passing of new laws to prevent the taking of private property for private development.

I don't think this is the end of the story.

SwampDonkey

I wouldn't want to be the land owners that take this type of loss. Usually the property value is assessed lower until it's developed by a third party. We had alot of landowners loose valueable forest and agricultural land to a 4 lane highway project. Not only did they loose the width of the right-of-way, but if the road crossed the middle of the property, that back portion was also inaccessible because no access roads are allowed to be built off the four-lane. So people are loosing alot more land than the width of the road.  >:( And you all know how low the value per acre goes when the government expropriates land.  >:(  ::) It's a hard nosed take it or leave it attitude.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mometal77

Jr..
good luck on your quest.  A few yrs ago south of me they took land from people and gave them min per acreage.  They where going to put in a garbage dump i believe.  Now the property is worth over 350k an acre or better.  And they never did anything with the land.  Now the property owners where fighting to get it back to no prevail.  With most politicians i believe they have no power.  Even with most of the agencies.  After me and my dad tried to get a 2 megawatt power plant back on line we found out state agencies think they over rule the heads in washington dc and couldnt get anything done..
good luck..
bob
Too many Assholes... not enough bullets..."I might have become a millionaire, but I chose to become a tramp!

karl

"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

Tom

I totally disagree with the decision as well.

It's good to know that there are a few justices who interpret the law as meaning that individuals need have no fear of the government.  The decision of the others to favor the taking of private property for the benefit of another , in effect redistributing the wealth, would do well on the side of the Communist Party's promise to bury us.  

No matter how insignificant a freedom is, it is lost when someone else usurps the power of control.  We, as American Citizens, should not give up Freedom lightly.  While it may be argued that no right is constitutionally given to own property, rights are given to pursuit happiness and against search and seizure.

The owning of property is a "right" that goes back to the Magna Carta, a tool used to design the Constitution of the United States.

I am not trained in law and haven't made my life's ambition the interpretation of the Constitution, but, I can't believe that the founders of this fine country meant that a citizen could own property only if there was no one else more deserving.

Woodcarver

I couldn't agree with you more, Tom.  The court failed to protect the rights of the citizens it is supposed to protect, instead putting them at the mercy of errant local government.
Just an old dog learning new tricks.......Woodcarver

crtreedude

My feelings are pretty strong on this - I totally disagree with the right of the state to usurp someones land - in fact, I think if for reason of a road or something of need of the community that land has to be taken - then the price paid should be double the going rate, just to discourage the politicians.

Call it pain and suffering.

So, how did I end up here anyway?

GF

If govt is involved normally the people are going to come out on the bad end of the deal.

Here is a story from my area that was interesting.

A large well know store chain was negotiating a store in this one specific city limit area.  The city bought the property and house from the residents for pennies on the dollar and turned around and was asking premium price for the land.   >:(

Once the chain store found out how the people of this city was taken advantage of the store chain decided to rethink its thoughts about the location, they reloacted the store down the road a couple of blocks just on the other side of the street in a differnt city limit.   :)

The store then negotiated another store chain in another city limit that was at the other end of where the newly located store was.  Right across the street from this newly negotiated store location was the city limits of the city that basically stole the poperty from its residents.

Now that one city has store at both end of its city, in other city limits and not getting a pennies worth of tax revenue.  Now that made my day!

thedeeredude

Oooooh, my back and shoulders hurt, must be the government getting heavier.  This is socialism in action, and one of the best reasons for the republicans in congress to stop sitting on their thumbs and get OUR judges through.  I'm tired of my rights being chewed away at every day.  The constitution doesn't state our rights, it states what the government can't take away from us.  Too late.

old3dogg

I had to sign an easement for the borough to run a main sewer line through my back yard. I wasnt crazy on the idea so I went to a town meeting on the subject. They had a lawyer there to answer questions.
I wanted to know what would happen if I refused to sign. I was told that the borough would find a reason to condem my house and make me move!
I was forced into signing. Didnt have a choice in the matter.
I have been trying to sell this place for the last 2 years but no one wants it due to the "right of way" for the sewer line!
Gota love the pin heads that run local goverment.

flip

The courts really really screwed up.  As distasteful as emminent domain is the constitution does spell it out.  This was the number one, by far the worst decision I have seen the Sup. Ct. make in a long while.  Total misinterpretation of the constitutions purpose.  Some how I doubt that writers of the Constitution thought far enough ahead OR it was their intention to allow those with the most money to pull the rug out from others.  Major bad call.  I've got to ask, were those 5 judges on Donald Trumps payroll :D :o ??? ::) :-*
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Ron Wenrich

How the vote went down:

For

Paul Stevens - Ford nominee
Anthony Kennedy - Reagan nominee
David Souter - Bush nominee
Ruth Ginsberg - Clinton nominee
Stephen Breyer - Carter nominee

Against

William Rehnquist - Nixon nominee
Sandra O'Connor - Reagan nominee
Anthony Scalia - Reagan nominee
Clarence Thomas - Bush nominee

Seems to me that the Republican judges are already there. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tom

If that is the cause, then it's time for those on the top of your list to move on.  They obviously, in my opinion,  don't have the spirit of America in their hearts.

Perhaps the fault, if there really is one,  needs to be layed at the feet of the Local Goverenment for even bringing the hardship to bear.

Dan_Shade

my problem with this is it's for private enterprise to make money with shopping centers, newer homes to be built, etc...

land for a road is one thing, land to make a mall is completely different.

the judges that voted for it, said that local gov't knows what is best, which is true, but the problem is local gov't is the most corrupt.

it all makes me sad.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

crtreedude

Perhaps it is time for people to start deciding that enough is enough. I think people need to care more what happens to their neighbor when government gets a little too heavy handed.

Nothing scares politicians as much as an active citizenship. Too often the problem is that no one cares until it happens to them.  The politicos can separate you, and then you don't have any power.

I still love the USA - I just don't love what it is turning into. My Costa Rican partner once said to me, "Fred, don't take this wrong - but I really don't think of United States as free." Sure got me thinking. There are things pulled on you guys up there they would never even think of doing here and this is supposed to be a more socialistic society.

One thing they have here which is really good, there is an Omsbudman that will fight against the government (or large business) for you. They realize that the little guy doesn't have much of a chance against the government - so they have a part of the government who's job it is to give you a fair break - and they do.

There are things wrong down here too for sure, not trying to paint a picture that all is roses. Usually what drives me nuts down here is incompetence - not maliciousness.


So, how did I end up here anyway?

Dan_Shade

we aren't free.

we're misguided as to we're free. the only thing we have is freedom of speech, and that really doesn't mean anything, of course it is a good thing, but in so many other areas we've been over run, and told what to do, it's disheartening

like I said, it makes me sad
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Larry

Not to late...think the Supreme Court dumped a lot of the responsibility right back on local government.  Posted this while back in the eminent domain poll.

Quote from: Larry on February 28, 2005, 09:26:26 AM
Kansas and Missouri are among the worst land grabbers around.  Witness the use of eminent domain to seize land from over 150 property owners to build the Kansas Speedway for Nascar.   

This is a big money issue...local and state governments will not change until we vote the land grabbing politicians out of office.

Looks like the US Supreme Court has backed away from the issue to let local governments do what they want, so no help there.

The only way we can change government is to let them know that WE WILL NOT TOLERANT USE OF EMINENT DOMAIN FOR PRIVATE DEVELOPMENT. Today would be a good time to write a nice letter to your elected officials to let them know your views. 

How many of you have written that nice letter to your elected officials?  Don't have much sympathy for people that won't fight (or write) to protect there rights.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Tom

For what it's worth, I've made my feelings known to every pertinent elected office available to me.  Yep, the President heard from me too.  We've already fought some of these battles in my State.  I fear that the ugly heads who are pro condemnation will try to raise up again.  I'm made to feel like a spoiled 3 year old child by thinking "It's mine!".

Officials appointed for life who have no avenues of public response are immune to the feelings of the population.  Supreme Court Judges don't make decisions based on popular comment.  Their job is to interpret the constitution when a question arises.   In this case, I think the majority of the justices are wrong and copped out by sending the decisions making back to the State of Connecticut.  Though I tend to be a State's Rights supporter, there are some things that are just right on a National level.  The protection of a citizen of the United States from an Economic Bully is one of them.

It would be a better move if the local government could have gotten its citizens to buy into the plan and sell their land for the betterment of the township.  The local Government didn't make the choice attractive enough to get the owners to consider being a winner.  They saw themselves as losers from the git-go.  I would have fought it too.

Why doesn't the Local Government pay for the property with funds large enough that their would be winners?   Why doesn't the Government buy the properties and add an incentive to make the owners business partners in the venture.  Why can't the properties be Leased in an eminent Domain situation with a pile of money up front and monthly charges to future users that would provide healthy, long term, monthly incomes back to the original Land-owners for the term of the lease, at which time the property would revert back to the originals (their estate) or the Lease could be renewed.  Of course we might see just how crooked the Government Officials are if a plan like that were to be available.  There is nothing that leads an official to corruption like a little bit of temptation.

maple flats

You're all right. Local politicians are very often short sighted and think nothing of taking from a land owner at a very low rate/acre and doing some huge plan that may often go for a while and then flop. If they take land for private developement they are crooked. Just look around you, many areas have old commercial land setting idle, unless it is a boom area and remember, most likely this would not happen in a boom area because the private developer would just buy out the land owner at a price that would make them feel like they were totally cheated. They will have lost many of the memories that the land reminds them of. Looking at a store or parking lot just doesn't bring back the same memories that the old oak tree next to the path thru the woods where (someone close) did something special. I.E. first rabbit, proposal, or anything else, looking at the parking lot looses much of that.
If you haven't guesses yet, I disagree with the court. I just 1 yes had voted no we would not be having this discussion. Many 5-4 decisions have been reversed. Contact you congressman and senator, let them know and every time a local government starts this kind of talk let them know that you will do all in your power to get them voted out of office and then do it. If this happens a few times they will see the writing on the wall.   OK, OK, I'll get off my soap box now!
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Fraxinus

Your mileage may vary but.....here's my eminent domain story.
The town found a beautiful water supply on my family's land.  They offered a ridiculous price.  Dad refused it.  It went to eminent domain.  They came up with a much higher figure.  Still not enough for dad.  So it went to court.
(Here's where your mileage may vary.  That may not be an option in your state, but I bet it is.) 
To shorten the story, the court awarded us roughly 5X what the Eminent Domain Commission would have given us.  The lawyers got a big chunk of it but it was well worth it.  We never disputed giving up the property.  That's the way eminent domain works.  And, unlike this ridiculous case today, it was for the public good and not for some private developer.  But most people would not have been willing to fight as we were. 
One argument we used to help convince the jury was "If gold had been discovered rather than water, would that land still only be worth the going rate for agricultural land"?
I have a feeling that this fight is not over.  Maybe if certain obstruction minded politicians can be convinced to get out of the way, we can get some judges who can read and interpret the law rather than going by their personal feelings on any particular subject or what they do in Europe. >:(
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

thedeeredude

QuoteI still love the USA - I just don't love what it is turning into. My Costa Rican partner once said to me, "Fred, don't take this wrong - but I really don't think of United States as free." Sure got me thinking. There are things pulled on you guys up there they would never even think of doing here and this is supposed to be a more socialistic society.

And the sad part is the US still has the most freedom in the globe.  Meanwhile, they're trying to ban 50cal rifles in the name of "fighting terror".  Here's an idea for fighting terrorism, take it to them and give em a good whooping and not boohoo about everything.  We aren't allowed to own most automatic rifles, they're trying to ban hunting guns.  What give's the government the right to do 75% of what it does?  Nothing, and our elected "officials" are doing absolutely nothing.  Then they try and rewrite the constitution, especially the 2nd amendment, but also most other amendments.  I still don't think we're forced to quarter troops, but if they asked nice, I'd put em up for as long as they want and make em good meals, because they're fighting for freedom that our own DanG government is taking away. 


crtreedude

I am not sure the USA has the most freedom in the globe, especially since I have been here. You would think I would be more afraid living in a third world latin american country - but honestly, I had more fear while in the USA. Perhaps it is because my last stop was NJ and during the time of the 9-11.

It was quite a shock to go from rural Western NY to NJ and deal with the NJ police. Once I was traveling down the road and avoided killing a policeman (who was in the wrong), but in the process ran over an orange traffic cone. They pulled me over and gave me a ticket for destruction of property. I fought it and still ended up paying 100 dollars - even though they admitted I did the right thing.  >:( I never saw anything as arrogant as NJ police.

When I travel near the borders here, I am not nervous. When I meet a policeman here, I am not nervous. The same was not true in NJ or when I would go to Canada. Hector actually turned to me when I was on a trip here and saw I was tensing up when I saw police and said, "Don't worry, these guys are friends, they aren't like the police in the USA." Heck, I pick up police and give them rides here.  ;)

I am made to feel welcome here in Costa Rica. Hector, who's wife is from California and children are US citizens, was made to feel like a criminal - even though he was completely legal in the USA. It shames me to think my country would do that to a hard working person.

And Costa Rica wouldn't steal my land - even though I am a foreigner. They actually will not be charging me property taxes because I am growing trees.

Freedom for me is knowing that what I build will not be taken away from me. It is the freedom to build a better life for me, my family and my friends.

just my dos colones


So, how did I end up here anyway?

Tom


Buzz-sawyer

Well Fred I think you are an interesting person and likeable too........

.lets just hope you never have to test and see if third world ,"Due process " works better than the United States...........
"And Costa Rica wouldn't steal my land" You dont know that for a fact
Evil people live everywhere........not just in the U.S.
I like the United States. ;)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

crtreedude

Thanks for the compliment Buzz-sawyer.

Actually I am in the process of suing Immigration here for losing my papers (i.e. being their normal incompetent selfs) - and I am winning. Try that one in USA. Oh, and it is costing me a hundred dollars to sue them.  ;D That includes lawyer fees.

Costa Rica has a constitution and they really respect it. Yes, evil people live everywhere, but the Ticos have a solution to a government who gets too big for it's britches. They shut everything down! I am not kidding. The politicians know they are not in control. This causes it's own problems of course, but it is pretty interesting.

Oh, and two ex-presidents are sitting in jail for accepting bribes from Alcatel (telecom). Do you think the USA would jail an ex-president?

I love the USA too - it just saddens me to see what is happening to it.

Trust me, you can get scammed here, big time. You don't have a lawyer on every corner to protect you from yourself. Costa Rica is a lot rawer than the USA - if you don't know what you are doing, you can get eaten alive - perhaps by the boa that lives on my property. ;-) Definitely by the sharpies.

Costa Rica won't steal my land, but if I left it vacant for a long time, someone else probably would. They are called squatters - and after a while, they have rights too.

I do not want to imply that Costa Rica is perfect - it isn't. But it does remind me of the USA several decades ago before the lawyers got to it. There is no guarantee that I will spend the rest of my life here - but so far, we are enjoying it. It has it challenges, believe me so it isn't all peaches and cream. For example, the peaches are awful here - but they have a mango that taste very much like the best peach you have ever had. You learn to substitute.

If I needed to I would move back to the USA cheerfully - but probably not in NJ.

Of course, if I move back, there goes the neighborhood.  :D

So, how did I end up here anyway?

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