Abandoned gas station

[Larry]

Thinking about buying an old grocery store that was selling gas until they went out of business about 2 years ago.  Want the store for storage and possible retail lumber sales.  Don't want any EPA problems with the old gas tanks...anybody have suggestions, or know how it works?

[mometal77]

The one that closed down out here had to have there tanks removed.  I think it is law.  Some takes are made of pe some i have seen are made of steel. I could ask for you.

[beenthere]

Only that it needs to have that problem taken care of before you get it. If the price is real good, then it probably is a problem.  At least in this State, it can (or it use to be it could) get real ugly and expensive, if any gas can be detected underground.

Some horror stories surround 'once-upon-a-time' gas stations.  Hope your plan works well.  

[Tom]

No, but, if the tanks are still in the ground and the ground hasn't been inspected and cleared, you will have a liability.  
A convenience store that we used to use in the '70's closed almost 20 years ago and the land put up for sale.  Inspections must have shown a spill.  Wells were dug and signs put up by the inspection agency to keep people off of the property.  I see an "official" car there twice or three times a year and a fellow testing the wells.

I wouldn't take the chance without someone in its past accepting all of the responsibility.

[mometal77]

I remember a friend that went to the community college for a business degree.  They did moch situations of what could happen, i remember one story he gave if you are a contractor going in to dig a ditch for a lets say drainge.  And you run into other things? What if  you pull something else up.  Just think old indian burial ground   :D Old gas station though with an automotive shop?
bob

[Don_Papenburg]

You have to have a certified enviromental audit done at the owners(sellers) expense.  Or some other leagal paperwork exemting you from any liabilaty. See your lawyer.

[Buzz-sawyer]

It will cost in the tens of thousands to get the remediation done.....tank and dirt removal and hauling and back fill....Its a BIG deal. ;)

[Don_Papenburg]

I thought that that was only if you had a leak and the EPA got involved . If you pulled good tanks that was just a normal fill and tamp  . But the big expense was disposal of the tanks.

[dutchman]

Here in PA on the state web sight there are listings of properties for sale.
I looked at one old gas station,the state would help with grant money,
but it wasn't nearly enough.

[Jeff]

Larry, I might know somebody that has a general answer. I'll shoot them an email. Stamp's Hubby used to work for MI DEQ  and now has a consulting company, that I think, deals in such issues.

[mike_van]

Here's a quick little horror story about an old station about 6 miles from me -

Long URL

[Stamp]

Hi guys:

THIS INFORMATION IS NOT INTENDED AS PROFESSIONAL OR PERSONAL ADVICE.  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.  NO TWO ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME AND THE EXTENT OF CONTAMINATION CANNOT BE DETERMINED OVER THE INTERNET.


Keep in mind I'm only talking Michigan here...

My hubby was a geologist for the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality for nearly 20 years regulating properties such as these.  He now owns an environmental consulting firm.  I also used to work for DEQ in the Division that regulated landfills and hazardous waste facilities.

In Michigan, a Phase I Environmental Assessment would need to be done to determine if there are RECs--recognized environmental conditions (stuff like underground storage tanks, 55-gallon drums laying around the property, floor drains, waste oil collection areas, etc.).  RECs are determined by what's called ASTM [national] Standards.  During this Phase, agency records are also searched to see if any known spills or other contamination has occurred on the property in question and/or surrounding properties.  Potential areas that could be adversely affected are also identified (surface water and groundwater flow, drinking wells,  nearby schools, etc.).  If there are RECs present, a Phase II Environmental Assessment needs to be done.

A Phase II will actually test any areas of concern (take soil samples, water samples, etc.) to determine if there actually is contamination present.  If the RECs are identified, tested, and fall under the State/federal protection standards, the new owner would more than likely be free from liability.

If contamination is determined to be present and exceeds state/federal protection standards, a Baseline Environmental Assessment (BEA) can be done.  The past owner(s) would be responsible for remediating the problem to meet state/federal standards.  The BEA would spell out all of the known problems and try to determine when they occurred (to establish responsibility).

In general, as long as these assessments are done and the info is submitted to the Department of Environmental Quality AND the new owner does not re-open the same type of property that could cause the same type of contamination (for example, put a gas station where there is known petroleum contamination), the new owner would be safe from past liabilities.  If the new owner puts a dry-cleaners at the site and the property later shows PCE contamination, the new owner is going to be liable.

Depending on whether or not the ethyl-methyl-badstuff is present and the extent of it, this process could cost you as little as $1,000 or as much as a KABILLION dollars in cleanups.  Often times the buyer/seller can reach agreements on property cost depending on what is found.

With all that said, in Michigan, the Freedom of Information Act allows you to file a request to the regulating agency (in this case the DEQ) and view files at the office for free.  If you want copies made there is a fee.   If you want to get a feel for how icky this property is/isn't, I'd suggest that would be a good place to start.

I was editing a report for my husband tonight and said out loud, "I never want to own a former gas station."   That was before Jeff sent me the note to ask for a response...

Whatever you decide, Good Luck.

[Part_Timer]

How many zeros in a KABILLION?  :

[Jeff]

How many zeros in KABILLION? Thats a conundrum.

Thanks Ada.

[Rockn H]

Larry this probably want help and it's been a few years so I can't remember exactly what it was called that he checked for. :  A freind of ours bought an old station to tear down and rebuild on the spot.  He went to the county clerks office and checked to make sure there were no filings on the property, no previous problems.  None existed so he just dug up the tanks, filled in the holes and sold the tanks for scrap.  A company in McGehee Ar at that time bought them.  If there's no old problems on file.  I would be tempted to teat it like a shoot, shovel, and be quiet, sitiuation. ;D : :

[J_T]

Last tanks I know of dissiapered at midnight it was a small town area  ???

[Stan]

TN gave owners a deadline to remove old tanks. My grandson was working at a shop that had tanks but didn't sell gas because that would obligate the lessee to pay for the removal. The station's still there and the tanks have never been removed, I don't understand how that works.  ???

[slowzuki]

A neighbour to my fiancees parents ran a station for years.  They had a leak and contaiminated the neighbours wells.  4 court cases later...

[Chris J]

Locate & consult with the proper authorities in your area,  & give the purchase some very serious forethought.  A tool rental company here (fellow I knew was co-owner in his families business) purchased a property to build a new rental store.  After the purchase they found out that there had been a gas station on the site some 40 years earlier.  They wound up being responsible for the remediation of the old tanks.  I wish that I had more details.

[iain]

Used to be ok to fill with concrete here,
but now they have to come out, you need to fill a change of use form with the local council,
theres an old sava station down the road, tanks are out, but now the issue is the soil and where that can go, been sitting nearly three years now at the new owners expence

iain