iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

sawmill layout and floor plans

Started by Quebecnewf, May 18, 2005, 07:02:19 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Quebecnewf

anyone out there have layout diagrams or rough sketches of different types of sawmills

I am very interested in a small mill that would include a circle primary breakdown and then secondary systems to finish sawing the cants. Edgers and butters would be part of the wood flow. Planning would be done in another building.

Saw an old circle saw mill with 4 sided planner all in one shed this weekend . Very compact very clean and very well planned out. Mill is operated only part time but a very nice setup.

One motor runs both the planer and the saw. They saw for a certain length of time and then plane what they have sawed. The guy who ofbears from the saw has a hanging 12" circle saw that trims everything to the correct length as he offbears. Very neat setup.

sparks

Email me and I'll send you a few different layouts we use for Wood-Mizer mills.   Thanks
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

Jeff

Here is a drawing of the floor plan we use with a cmc circle mill

I forgot to lable the 5 strand green chain.


Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Sparks sent me a large PDF that includes floor plans developed for Wood-Mizer sawmills that I could post here. They should certainly be applicable for any small mill.  :) I'm in the process of stripping them out of the larger document so they can easily be seen here. As I get them, I'll add them to this post. Here is the first  :)

Thanks Sparks!













Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

I'd like to tell you there is a simple way to layout a mill, but I can't.  There are too many variables in order to put the pieces together.

If I recall, you figure that you'll have 10,000 logs/yr that range from 6-16", primarily in 8, 10 & 12'.  Capital is limited.

Your mill layout will depend on how many sorts you are doing, what size of lumber you are cutting, your power source, amount of labor input, etc.  You can start with a basic concept and move on from there.  You should have a stable source of logs and a fairly stable lumber market.  But, you can't start with a ton of equipment and expect to make ends meet.  The headrig is where the bottleneck should be in any mill.  The headrig should never have to wait for logs or wait for lumber to be removed to keep on cutting.  You need surge areas for logs and lumber.

Jeff's first mill layout is pretty much what I've seen in the typical hardwood mill.  Our mill is a little different, since we cut ties and some other heavy stuff we run off the end of the green chain.  Basically the same with some variations. 

First thing you want to figure out is what type of power source are you going to be using.  Your options are basically a power unit like a diesel, your own generated electricity or electricity from the local electric company.   If you are using a power unit, it may alter the way things are arranged.

The next concept you need is that every piece of equipment must have a maximum of a 2 year payback.  That's why I would question your need for a secondary cant breakdown.  A secondary breakdown acts like another headrig.  It can effectively double your production at a lower cost than adding a new mill with support equipment.  10,000 logs isn't a whole lot of production to begin with.  Where will the savings come from to get your payback? 

Another concept is that you don't want to handle your waste any more than necessary.  1/2 of your logs will be in waste, no matter what type of system you use.  What are you going to do with the sawdust?  How are you going to handle it - blow it, drag it, or shovel it?  Are you going to use a chipper?  Are you using a debarker?  Paybacks come from lower production costs through increased efficiency and by value added products to the waste.

Are you putting in kilns to accompany your planing mill?  What do you do with your shavings? 

When we put in our mill, we made one big mistake.  We listened to equipment salesmen to help out with the mill layout.  What do they know?  They sell equipment, they don't use it.  The mill works great, but the support equipment is questionable. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Quebecnewf

thanks for all the info Ron and Jeff. The more I think through this project the more I see how difficult it will be to pull off. Of course this makes me more determined than ever to try and do it.

The main problem we face is the high cost of equipment and the fact that we must buy a lot there are pretty well no pieces we can do without.

Sawmill (kara) maybe  $50 to 60 K

Generator $15K

Tracked fowarder (special type we will have no choice but to haul on snow roads ) $45K

Harvester (second hand ) $45 to $50K

Build shed $5k

I cannot see 2 year payback on this amount of money. Why is 2 year payback so important. I know that the quicker you can payback money the better you are.

Got to turn my attention to markats and make double sure we can sell all that we can saw. Once that is confirmed then we turn to banks and buying.

Great forum  and great info Thanks

Paul

Ron Wenrich

The payback is important from the standpoint that a piece of equipment must pay for itself.  If it doesn't, then it becomes an expense, not an asset.  A 2 year payback is pretty much an industry standard.  You need the payback to pay for the depreciation. 

Good, used equipment is the practical way to go.  Your upfront costs are a lot lower, and it is quicker to pay off.  But, you have to make sure that repair costs don't eat you up.  The major disadvantage to used equipment is that you are behind current technology. 

We just priced out a 400 Kw genset.  New one runs between $45-60,000.  Weekly fuel consumption is about 400 gals.  With diesel at $1.75, we are looking into the local utility for rates.  The estimate 7 years ago was around $5000/mo. 

Shed costs may be OK, as long as labor isn't counted in.  You will also have electric panels to figure in there.   That will make it higher.

You can justify those high prices, if you have the production to go with it.  I don't know if 10,000 logs is going to do it.   
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

slowzuki

I visited a fellows mill last night.  I'll try to attach the sketch...

Hmm, well I can't make it small enough to upload and still readable, if anyone wants it just email me.  It's only 30 k so it would send fast.

In words,

Log deck on north in logyard feeds headrig.  It is a 5" one side toothed electric band upsized to cut 20 ft.

Slabs and boards are directed via a 2 way conyevor to the board conveyor or slab chain.  The slab chain goes to a slab saw and the board conveyor goes to an auto stack think that basically piles 2 or 3000 bf.  The edger is right next to this for any boards needing it.  At the other end of the edger is a resaw.

The whole place has dust collection too.

The interesting thing is everything but the headrig was built by this fellow.

He saws exclusivly hemlock and cedar.  He logs all winter and saws all summer.  One man operation.  Doesn't advertise but is always busy.

Gary_C

I do not know exactly what you are planning, but I will offer some comments from my own experience. It sounds like you are going to create a business with five major operations. As I see it, you will need logging, transportation, milling, value added, and marketing.

On the logging, you will have a harvester and forwarder, just as I have. Not all of what you cut will be sawlogs, so you will need to deal with pulp wood. Most harvesters will cut at least 25 cords per day and with a good operator can cut up to 50 and even 75 cords per day in easy going. Here in Minnesota, all the harvester and forwarder operators will go to great lengths, including building roads, to avoid long hauls (over one mile) with their forwarders. The reason is the forwarders are just not built for speed so the long hauls will reduce the daily capacity to the point they just can't keep up with the harvester.

I put in transportation because you will discover that you must have a large truck and trailer to haul logs, finished products, and equipment. The good news is that hauling and selling pulp wood can provide much needed cash flow and allow your logging and trucking to be self sustaining.

On the sawmill, start smaller. You could easily start with one of the larger bandsaws like the Woodmizer LT70. Remember if you outgrow it, you can easily sell it and move up later. Most larger mills use a circle saw for primary breakdown because they already have a lot of money invested in an existing setup.

It sounds like you already see that value added operations are a must. The most important one to start with would be kiln drying followed by planing.

Do not overlook the investment in time that marketing will take. I am sure that many people on this forum, myself included, that have not invested enough resources in marketing.

Putting all this together all at once will be a HUGE task. Try hard to break it down into smaller pieces over a longer time. The two year payback rule that Ron wrote of, is generally used for adding new equipment to an existing operation. It is difficult to apply that rule to start up equipment costs. In order to get this past your banker, you will need to show their investment will be safe and they could sell you out anytime you fail and get their money back. The other thing you will need is a realistic cash flow projection that will allow you to payback their loans and grow your business.

I don't mean to discourage you, and I may not fully understand what you are planning. I just want to make sure you see some potential problems.

Your sucess may not depend so much on your equipment as it will on the help you hire and how well you adapt to changing markets and opportunities.

One other piece of advice that an oldtimer gave me was, don't try to make a living selling pallet boards. I saw recently where a sawmill was asked on a survey if they cut any pallet boards and they replied "Not on purpose."

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Frank_Pender

I do not see anything about sadust recovery, packaging and marketing. :'(
Frank Pender

Ron Wenrich

When looking at alternative situations, you have to run the different possiblities.  I always start with a simple formula.  Value = raw material costs + production costs + profits.  It works for any operation.

What you first look for is a breakeven cost.  That is where profit is equal to zero.  If you can't do it for that, it isn't worth doing. 

When comparing 2 different systems, you want to find the one that has the lowest operational costs.  In forest products, we usually take that back to a unit price.  When compairing a couple of different systems, production gets to be a major component.  When recovery rates are different (band vs circular), you have to adjust your raw material cost or your value to compensate for the increased yield.  If the yield is greater than the production, than you're OK.

You must also consider what your cost would be to have someone else do one of the components of your operation.  Can you buy logs in?  Can you produce logs cheaper than buying in? 

One other factor to consider is leasing.  It may be cheaper to lease or rent than to buy, especially if you are only going to use the equipment for a few months out of the year. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Quebecnewf

thanks for all the info guys . I only wish I could set down at your kitchen table for an afternoon and just set and talk. You guys have the knowledge that I need. I have been running a hardware building store for the last 13 years and I do I feel understand business and what it takes to make a living in the business world. This project is just something that I can't leave alone even though I know it is very risky.

Just mulling over the idea of buying a second hand excavator/harvester this coming fall. We could then try it in our woods and see what we could produce. If it works out we would have lots of logs for our 2 small bandmills and we would see more clearly what the next step should be. If things go bad we have only spent a little bit of money and we can always rent the machine out or resell it. As I see it very little risk and it get our feet wet so to speak.

With that in mind what type of machine would be good we have mostly trees from 6" to 16" dia anything bigger we would fall with chainsaw. I had one guy suggest that a stroke harvester mounted on a small excavator would be our best bet.

I'm afraid I have to do a whole lot of reasearch on this matter.


slowzuki

I doubt you'll get a definitive answer as to what is best!

Locally most of our production is similar sized trees.  Main methods:

Feller buncher head (I think is the correct term, not a dangle head) on a variety of platforms, common one is escavator so in the summer it can be used for other tasks.  Paired with grapple skidder or forwarder.

Dangle type harvestor head on long reach platform like mini-escavater with long boom or wheeled platform.

Skidder and winch, manual felling

Have read about a crew with a forwarding trailer with winch and stroke delimber behind a tractor.  The winch to the stroke delimber and then load into the trailer.

Furby

Quote from: Quebecnewf on May 21, 2005, 06:15:21 AM
I only wish I could set down at your kitchen table for an afternoon and just set and talk. You guys have the knowledge that I need.

Two words: Piggy roast! ;D

Gary_C

Finding a good machine for your needs is no easy task. Those harvesting machines take a real beating every day and will require a lot of maintenance. Best thing is to talk to the previous owner.  They will usually share their knowledge of the machine including what may need fixing.

Also talk to operators that use different systems. Some of the choices you will have to make are between rubber tired carriers with dangle heads and track machines with fixed heads. The tracked machines usually have more muscle but can do more damage in the woods. Shear heads are now obsolete because they crush the fibers too much and most mills will not accept shear cut logs. Main choices now are bar saws or hot saws.

In my opinion, the best system for a smaller, start up operator is the rubber tire, cut-to-length harvester and forwarder combination. However there is a difficult learning curve and you need a good parts source and good technical advice for both operating and maintenance. Tracked machines are difficult to move and require high dollar, heavy maintenance.  I do use tracks on my 6 wheel rubber tire machine most of the time.

Other combinations are a feller buncher, large grapple skidder, and a slasher back at a large landing. I am not completely familiar with capabilities of stroke delimbers, but I think you must have another machine for the cut to length operation or do it by hand. There are some tracked, fixed-head, cut to length systems, but they are either very high priced or need a lot of head and undercarriage work.

Check around in your area for working demonstrations of harvesting equipment. I know that Ponsse has demos scheduled in MN, WI, and MI in the next month and in previous years there has been a logger sponsored  demo with all companies in Wisconsin but I haven't seen any schedule yet.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Quebecnewf

This is one of the problems I am facing I see many types of harvesters and cutting systems on the net. I have no experence with any of them. In our area none of any kind have ever been used to cut logs.

I think (and I am by no means sure) that we would need a smal excavator with tracks and a stroke harvester. With this system we could spend a small amount of money see what it will do and in the future upgrade the system as needed.

We will have to log during the winter. I am leaning towards leasing a small system or buying something second hand to give it a try this winter. My thinking is that if I buy and the machine is not doing what I think it would I can always sell and not be out too much money. This will also let me see if I need to go bigger or change my thinking completly.
I know that in the area we are looking at  cutting there is a small excavator that is not being used during the winter maybe it would be possible to mount something on that and give it a go.
This would be the first small step and the cheapest way to get our feet wet so to speak.


red

Some good ideas on sawmill layout 
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

Thank You Sponsors!