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Urban logging tactics and psychology

Started by JimBuis, May 06, 2005, 10:09:37 PM

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JimBuis

What tactics and psychology do you urban loggers and sawyers use to maintain your supply of free urban logs?  Do you leave the mill at home and only show up with your truck, trailer, and chain saw so you can load up the logs and haul them home?  Do you take the mill and split the lumber with the property owner? :-\

Inquiring minds want to know!! :P
Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Dan_Shade

if they are giving me the log, I move it, for a few reasons:  keeps the mess in their yard down, lets me work at my own pace, and avoids me doing a lot of work and them going "i don't want to give you this anymore"

I prefer to move the logs in any case for the above reasons, plus my saw is slow, and i dont' have a lot of free time.

every case is different, and it depends on what you want from things.  My other philosophy is that I have a regular job to pay the bills, this is a side deal for me that I enjoy, I also know that the logs give me an end product that I'm interested in for personal use.  With all of this in mind, I don't want to "cheat" a homeowner out of any wood.  If a homeowner does any woodworking, I offer to give them some wood after I get it cut. I do what I can to keep a clear conscience.   :)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

JimBuis

Dan, I have been thinking some of the same and have read similar ideas here on the forum.  I am still pondering the business plan behind buying a portable mill and support equipment.   :P

It seems that there is a time and situation that calls for leaving the mill at home and being well equipped to load up a couple of logs and haul them home.   Now I need to get some ideas about what sort of equipment can be reasonably purchased for loading and hauling logs.  :-\   Somebody awhile back suggested using a variation on the propane tank delivery trailer thingy.  :)  That is a good idea, but seems to limit you to hauling one log at a time.  I was wondering about a 2 1/2 ton truck with a steel roll back bed on it and a 8,000 pound Warn winch mounted on top of it.  You could load more than one log and use the truck for hauling other stuff sometimes.

What kind of equipment do you guys use for loading up logs from someone else's property to haul home?
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Jeff

Jim, here is a link to a section in our photo archives that is full of log moving photos.  Yes, many of them are full blown log trucks, but many are not. In fact the discription for tis gallery says:

Logs-Moving
By truck by trailer... Even by Snow mobile!

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=93

You can click on the text below a photo where it says:
Click to search forum for picture

and find the thread to see what the photo is about.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

mike_van

Jim, I like to treat others property the same as my own, and i'm REALLY fussy. Whatever makes them the happiest is what I tend to do. Meaning, getting there ASAP, not leaving a mess, trying to leave the place better than I found it. I'm in a small town, still pretty rural in NW Connecticut, if word "gets around" that you do a poor job, the phone will stop ringing. Most all I get is free, logs, firewood etc.  Some friends had their property logged this winter, the header was a few hundred feet from their house. When they asked if I wanted to "clean up", I was there as soon as the mud was gone, 16 loads on my F350, picked up every last sawed off knot, crotch, everything. I've found thats the best way to get  more calls. Because this place was 4 miles from me, I drove my tractor [ IH 574 with a loader I built]. I also made a small hydraulic crane for the Ford, if there's only a few logs I use that.  A few times, i've hired a log truck because the pile was too big - or too far to keep going back.  One of my mottos - "if it's free, it's for me" - And it usually is if you do a good job.
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

JimBuis

Well Jeff, that answers that question.  What are you guys using to load and haul logs?  Everything . . . . . . including the kitchen sink . . . . . and if you don't have one of those available you build one.  ;D  Boy ya'll are inventive! :)  I guess necessity is in fact the mother of invention or at least its cousin! :o

Thanks, Jeff.  I enjoyed the photos.  It seems that a well built trailer and a winch or come-along are often enough to load up some logs.
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

oakiemac

Jim, I know an old retired guy with a roll back truck that I hire to move logs for me. He can put about 4-5 logs on the back. It works pretty good, he just backs up to the pile then  lowers the deck  and winchs the logs up.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Kelvin

My best bet when dealing with free logs is wait till they come.  It takes a few years for word to get around.  When i first got my mill i called every tree guy in the yellow pages.  NObody would give me a stick of wood, and they wouldn't even sell them to me!  Firewood prices are pretty high around here and i guess they keep their crews busy in the down time.  You'd think getting $1200 per tree removal would be money enough, but they maximize things around here!
Well i waited and pretty soon word got around to the guys who aren't big enough to pay for a yellow pages ad and they don't mess with the firewood.  Too small of crews, they just want the money for the tree removal, and quickly get the tree gone.  I've got 2 now i've picked up logs for.  They might supply me with all the lower grade stuff i need, and some good stuff.  What they want is someone to come ASAP, and be reliable.  One call, and you are there.  I work for myself so i drop what i'm doing, jump in my 1990 ford F800 with a crane behind the cab, and a 7 1/2 yd dump box 10' long that i bought at auction from the state for $3,300.
For consistant quality saw logs though you need to find a logger or directly cut from an owner.  There is no comparison between yard trees, and trees grown in the deep woods.  I got used to sawing short, knotty trunks that were 10' long to the crown.  Your first 'real" woods tree shows you what logging is about.  Lucked out on a 36" cherry blow over.  5 sections 8'6" till the first defect!!!  That is how mills make money.  Pay $250 per tree in the woods, and your quality of wood goes through the roof!!!  Its simple mathmatics.  Free logs yeild me about 50% No. 1's and better say for example.  I spend so much time picking up, moving, sawing, handling drying.  Now a premium sawlog thats 4x's as long, cost me some $, yeilds a lot more premium grade llumber, which when sawing with a small slow mill like my Lt-40 you need to make every cut count if you are planning on making a living!  Which log did you make the most $ per bd ft?  No such thing as a free log, you are always using $ either in depreciation or your own labor.  Now if you don't want to make any $ and just want to screw around thats okay.  I heard Woodmizer say if you want to make $20 per hr, each cut of the mill will cost you about $1, without considering the log.

Now a question along this same vein.  I recently was contacted by a home owner who used the usual ploy with me to get lots a $ for his logs that nobody really will want.  He said i have these great perfect oak logs that are forest grown, 3' in dia, 30' to the first limb, and the county is cutting them for a right away.  Now assuming this is true (which it often isn't ) He went on to say he has 17 of these trees and he doesn't want hardly anything for them, cause the mills he's called said they would be worth $300-$400 each, but they don't buy small quantities, which is true, and if the description is accurate the price is reasonable.  But he procedes to say "i burned $1600 worth of propane last year, so if i can't get that i'll burn them up!"  Well, i understand burning wood but i often get this debate with home owners.  How much is the wood worth to him?  Doesn't he want to make anything like the $40 and hour he gets at the office for cutiing and splitting?  The wood isn't going to jump in his fireplace!  Does he enjoy it?  He'll have years worth of wood from the tops alone! 

This happens to me a lot so i was wondering what you guys thought.  If someone values their logs against firewood shouldn't the price of processing the logs into firewood come out of it somewhere?  Its like a threat homeowners use up around me.  "See this fine cherry log?  I"m gonna burn it up if you don't give me $1000!!!"  Like they are holding me hostage, and they are kinda cause i hate to see it!!  I"ve seen so many of these supposid log piles that homeowners where gonna sell for a million $ sitting in the same spot till they rot into the ground!!  What do you guys do?  I often say i'll give them $ to have dried split wood delievered in return for the logs, but should it be a one to one ratio?

Just some thoughts
KP

Brad_S.

Kelvin,

When I encounter that mentality, I walk away. IMO, you can't win as if you do finally get the logs at a fair price, the owner will probably have sellers remorse later and think you ripped them off, which leads to them bad mouthing you.
I walk at the first sign of an unrealistic attitude. The best thing about beating your head against a wall is that it feels so good when you stop. There will be other opportunities coming down the road, so I just wait for the next one.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

HORSELOGGER

Kelvin I get that attitude sometimes from landowners who want me to know that they dont need the money and will just as soon let the timber stand and rot as to "give it away" I always make sure to let them know that I can just as easily go broke lying on the couch in my boxers watching the tube rather than spend thousands of dollars on equipment so I can give unrealistic landowners way too much money for their timber ;) As far as the " I'll just burn them up" ploy... I would hand him a book of matches ... and do like Brad said,   Take a walk.
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

MemphisLogger

When I first started out, I contacted all the CERTIFIED arborists in town and let them know that I'd like to reduce the amount of wood going to the landfill and that I would do my best to make the process of bucking and loading as hassle-free and timely as possible.

In my opinion, certified arborists are the best bet for good logs without $$$ issues--they are professionals and understand costs better from a man-hour and tipping fee perspective. Being that they've invested serious time in becoming a professional, they also respect me as sawyer and understand that I'm not just collecting pots of gold under the rainbow.

If I do have any problems with an arborist thinking I should be paying for the logs, I carefully explain to them the log market and even refer them to some nearby mills that buy timber from traditional woodlots. Once they understand that the 30" Walnut log will only fetch $100 at the mill, they realize that I really am doing them a favor by hauling it off for free. It also helps to invite them over someday when you're sawing a log you know has metal in it even though it looks perfect  ;)

I usually go to the job before the felling and spraypaint buck marks on it before it hits the ground. I also try to be there when they do the felling if they're using a crane as they'll put them on the trailer for me.

Timeliness is absolutely essential--if you make just one arborist miss a Friday check because you couldn't get there when you said you would, the word will spread fast and many won't call you anymore.

To further encourage "donations", I setup "boardfoot" accounts for my arborists in which I tally the wood they give me and credit them with compareable wood at a rate of 50 cents/bdft to be redeemed in custom woodworking wherein I charge 50 cents/bdft for the wood and shoprate for the labor. If they just want the wood back, I charge $1/bdft.

I'm also active with my local Urban Forestry association and publicly promote the use of Certified Arborists, so we all feel like we're on the same team.  ;)

         
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Frank_Pender

I am going to be into this same sort of issue, later today. I have a fella that has bought lumber wrap from me in the past and such, who has asked to have me take a look at 50 "very large and tall Oregon Oak for free, to remove".  He has already called a mill that is infamous for giving out high prices then d grading the logs when they arrive, to less than half of what he quoted over the phone.   Iwill be taking one of my ex-students to the site with me this afternoon to view the situation.  He as his brother have a self-loader as well as a long-logger.  to do the rmoval with, along with a skidder and a D 7.    Will will see what the afternoon brings.    ;D


   Timing on getting the logs removed is an exact prime example of a deal I got a few weeks ago.  A 10' circumforance English Walnut was being removed as well as an about same size Western Big Leaf Maple from a demolition site.  I stopped in the afternoon and was told to be there at 8 the next morning.  I was 15 minutes early.  Within an hour I had hauled both hombe along with numerous larger limbs worth cutting into slabs with my new Hudson mill. ;D  I sold the Walnut for well over 5 cs. and still have the limbs, two of which have been slabbed into 10 tables 6' to 8' x 3 1/2".  I will try and market them for only $25 for the shorter to $40 for the longer. 8)
Frank Pender

Frank_Pender

Well, Sunday afternoon was simply a walk in a 65% grade and more.  ::) :'(  I was supprised this guy had not killed himself by the way the trees had been falling and the residue on the stump.  The Oregon Oak trees ranged all the way for 4" dbh to 30" dbh.  Ninety % would make nothing but firewood.

  I had taken one of my students along as a possible candidate to do the job for the land owner and low and behold, we believe he is going to have a weeks worth of work for the D7 and his brother (another past student), at about $1,200 a day for a ten hour day.   8) 8) 8)  We will see.  It sounds as though the logs will be turned into firewood more than anything.  We talked of selling them for chips, but the chip market here is down to only about $20 a ton for Oak.   Hardly worth the hauling, let alone the loading onto the truck.
Frank Pender

Captain

The word has spread like wildfire here locally since I have the log trailer.  I do all of the log hauling for a combination landscape/tree service across the street, and i do not charge them anything to haul their firewood to them in exchange.  Having said that, I have reached the point of saturation with pine here and have started charging low rates to remove good quality pine from home lots, and charge more for removal of bad quality pine.  At this point, I ahve all I need for the next 6 months.  I need to spend more time sawing, not hauling. 

I rarely get calls for hardwood log removal.  After the website is done, I'm going to launch a "treecycling" advertising campaign.

Captain

rebocardo

I get paid for either taking the tree down or for removing it. So, the log is always truly free. Very rarely will I remove anything for free, usually only for a widow or an old person that can not afford to have it removed otherwise.

Sawing it on site depends on where the site is and if the sawing will have a real negative impact on the person's property. Sawing logs where the houses are $1,000,000 in a country club subdivision is not a cool thing. In an urban area with $150k houses it is fine and if the customer would like some wood, I give them something. Most just want the tree gone.

I just finished up Sunday night at 11:00 pm on Mother's Day with a job that started "take down my cedar trees and you can have them for free" to a contract $ job, me getting the trees for free (firewood), and everyone being happy including my wallet.  8)

The trees really were not worth anything more then firewood, if that, so I did not bother bringing my mill.  I do not think I would have been able to get a good 4x4 out of any of the seven trees I cut down. 

Usually I cut the tree up into sections, remove all the branches and firewood stuff so the site is clean, and on the last day show up with the mill and turn the trunk pieces into lumber.

Left_Coast_Rich

I have been friends with a tree service owner for some time now and he calls when a tree comes in that is worth cutting.  I just leave my trailor in his yard and he loads it up and calls me.  I sve him the dump fee and he blesses me with the wood.  I always offer some wood back to him but he is not interested.  I  just cut up a redwood that was 38" dbh  and got 837' from the first 2 sections.  Sections 3-4 & 5 are still to be cut    prudy wood.  The city has an open contract for 8 sycamore trees to be removed, which I have called on for the wood when they come down.  I will be there as they are cut so no down time for the service. 
I have a 2.5 ton GMC with 8k lbs boom  hook up trailor, fill up tank and off we go.  LC Rich. 
I know more today than yesterday less than tomorrow.

whitepe

Jim,
I have loaded lots of logs onto a trailer with two 8 foot long 6X6's as ramps
along the side of the trailer.  I then use either steel cables or chains with the ends fastened to each end of the trailer on the side opposite the ramps. I then have two $20 come alongs that I alternate back and forth between each one and pull on the center of the chain
or cable looped under the log and then back to the center of the far side of the trailer.
I take the logs because my LT15 mill is stationary.  I don't have the trailer option.
I have found out that once people hear that I have a sawmill,  I have lots of people that want me to take their logs to make lumber because they can't bear to see the logs turned into firewood.  I have a bigger supply of logs than I have time to mill them.
My slogan is,  " I bought a sawmill, and ever since, logs have been falling out of they sky"
:D ;D
Most people just want to get rid of the logs,  occasionally people want to go halves on the lumber and occasionally they hire me to saw their logs and they take all of the lumber.
If someone wants to hire me,  I make them bring the log to me. If they give me the logs and they are within 10 miles or so of where I live,  I sometimes go pick them up.
Since I am doing this for my own hobby,  I have found that it is easy to get overcommitted on work so I tend to be somewhat selective.  I learned quickly that I don't take down trees, that's why tree service people are in business and they earn every penny that they charge in  hard work,  risk, and business expenses.
Good luck.
Whitepe
PS.  When you saw urban forest,  expect to saw metal.   5 out of 15 blades that I recently sent back to woodmizer resharp were rejected due to tooth damage.
blue by day, orange by night and green in between

Slabs

Whitepe
I'd like to share my cheap and efficient loader with you that will go nicely with your ramps.  Will send drawing and explanation.
e-mail me.
dfouts@cyou.com
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

Buzz-sawyer

Hey slabs!!!
What about the rest of us..we wana see it too ;) :D :D
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Brad_S.

I am listed in the yellow pages under 'sawmills' and get all sorts of calls offering me trees from that listing. Had a message on the answering machine just yesterday. Homeowner had a "good sized walnut tree, probably 8" in diameter and 30' tall." "Now I'm not looking to get rich off it, but I know it's worth big money." "Taking it down might be tricky, it's between the house and the garage."
Strangely enough, I passed on it. I didn't have the energy to explain why, just left a message on his machine saying no thanks.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Slabs

Hey Buzz
You're probably referring to my not posting the rig on the forum.  I haven't been able to reduce my files down enough for entering them onto the posting.  Drop me an e-mail and I'll forward them direct.
Slabs  : Offloader, slab and sawdust Mexican, mill mechanic and electrician, general flunky.  Woodshop, metal woorking shop and electronics shop.

mike_van

Come on Brad, that BIG Walnut must have 100 - 200 gunstocks in it - or would it be pistol grips?  [half sap - half heart]   I can't go in the yellow pages - I really can't advertise, if the zoning board [or a local rat] ever saw that I was a comercial operation, they would burn me out!!!!!!  They hate all that does not conform. >:(
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

LeeB

I went to look at a monster walnut today. I suppose for around here it was pretty big. The 20'x26" log turned out to be maybe 15' of twisted rot with only about 3-4' of the base at 26". I had told the lady I would saw it for halves before I went to see it. I felt bad about backing out on her, so I told her if she could get iot to me I would saw it for $40. LeeB
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

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