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Looking at some acreage

Started by Doc, April 28, 2005, 03:46:26 PM

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Doc

I have been tossing the idea of buying some timbered acreage around for some time now, and I think I found what I am looking for but want information and advice before I go take a good look around.

What I am looking at is 130 acres of undeveloped property, all in timber. From what I am getting from the real estate agent it was logged about 10 or 12 years ago for everything 16" and larger, and has been left to grow back completely unmolested. I have contacted the Tennessee DNR to see if I can get a state forester or the name of a consultant forester to walk the property with me before purchase, but am curious to find out if I am going to have to wait an exorbitant amount of time before I can realize a return on my investment. In other words, with the time given to regrow will I be waiting for another 10 or 12 years before I can harvest again? I do not want to high grade the property if I can help it, nor do I want to clear cut it, but will go on the advice of the forester if I choose to purchase this place.

My plan, as it exists without having seen the place first hand, is to low grade out the property and cull out the standing dead good timber, and the early forked trees to make room for better trees and the nice trees that are already there. this woudl provide me some return early on, and clean up the area to provide for a better return later if my thinking is correct. Please correct me on this if I am wrong.

I do plan on clearing a small amount of the property (approximately 3 to 5 acres) for a home site, but the rest of it is to be left to nature with a little help in the for of low balling it out.

Somebody give me some idea of what to look for before I go look at this place and fall all over myself......

Doc

Texas Ranger

You need to talk to a local forester, and have him look at the tract, there are a bunch of good consultants and state hands.  With out looking at the tract I would almost bet the 16" cut was at the stump, which means you have some 16 inchers again, mostely 14's and 12"'s.  The last cut was a high grade, or, a real estate cut, to reduce volume, maximize income, and leave a "timbered" tract for real estate purposes.

Depending on what it is left, it may or may not be a good deal.  Look for competitive sales for price.

You may want to try:  http://www.acf-foresters.com/memberlist.cfm
to find a forester in your state.

There is another forum site based in Alabama at:  http://forestry.about.com/mbody.htm?COB=home&terms=forestry

Lots of information on southern forests.  Tell Steve I sent ya.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Larry

Our state foresters won't even talk to ya until you have clear title to the land.  After that you have to make an appointment and it maybe months down the road.  They really do a good job...just slow because they are using are tax dollars wisely.

I wouldn't even begin to listen to your real estate agent.  They might be perfectly honest but I have never seen one that had any knowledge of timberland.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Texas Ranger

Dead on, Larry, real estate agents are looking for their 6%.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

wesdor

You have some good advice so far, but let me add some thoughts in another direction.

If you are in your 20's and plan on this property providing you some income in retirement (past 65), then you may be on the right track.  You say that it was logged of everything 16" or bigger about 10 years ago.  They probably took most of the value out of the land.  You are probably right in thinking that another 10-15 years will see some trees of value.

I'm in somewhat the same dilema as you.  I have 87 acres that was given about the same treatment 10 years ago.  I purchased it last year.  My goal is to clean the place up, remove most of the brush and undergrowth, plant hardwoods, and hope that my grandchildren may have something of value after I'm gone.

Now if your intent is to buy a house lot, then this might be the place for you.   Depends upon the cost / acre.  One thing for sure, there won't be more land manufactured and land prices probably won't get any cheaper in the long run.  

Good luck on your decision and possible purchase

tnlogger

 doc a couple of quistions.

1 is it mountain or rolling land ?

2 is the land accesable inthat does it have road frontage or is it land locked with just a right of way.?

My son and i have managed the meninte communitie timber here in white county for over 15 yrs.
cutting nothing less then 20" dbh on the good seed and value timber. at that size it takes from 20 to 25 yrs. to reharvest on a small scale. and that is on the poplar. oak, maple and walnut need at least another 50r6 yrs. if not more to make it worth while to harvest.

just my 2cents worth gene
gene

Doc

Understanding the point of veiw about real estate agents, I am a sceptic too till I see it, and I am not from Missouri. You will still have to SHOW ME!

Here is as good a description of the land as I have to date. I do plan on taking a look around, but after calling a few of the consultant foresters here I don't think I will be paying for the walk around before purchase. I just simply can't afford it. Now back to the description.....131 acres wtih 1/4 mile of hwy frontage (two lane backroad hwy here is kinda slow traffic stuff), have a topo map coming by mail but description sounds rolling with a smallish mountain on the property, and a creek at the back of the property. Power for the place is non existant at this time, but available at .6 miles away. Used as investment land and hunting ground for many years. owned currently by a minister who has had it for some 20+ years as I understand it.

My plan is to purchase a place like this (maybe this one) and clear 5 acres for a home site, barn, and living space (garden, chicken shed, etc). Plant some fruit and nut trees in my living space cutout, and live on the place.

My theory fits in there like someone elses. It is land, and there will be no more made, and the value will always go up. this is currently just over 1K per acre, and it will rise steadily the way the area near it is growing. I can have the seclusion I want and still be close to a major city. I can have peace and quiet, a nice place to look out the window and look at, and never have to worry about anyone taking it away from me. One day I might be able to harvesst, but if not that is okay too. My kids will do okay on it after i am gone if they listen to what I am telling them now. At least with land there is no gamble in it. You just can't go wrong buying land. I was just kinda hoping to see some kind of return on my investment sooner than 20 years down the road......and I still may.....

Doc


Jim_Rogers

Years ago we cleared a house lot for a builder. He built and sold the house.
There wasn't any power coming down the street. So the new owner applied for and paid for power to be brought down to their house.
Well it took months and lots of red tape to get it done.
I saw the home owner once and he said he had to sell his old house to pay for the new one, packed all his things up into a storage trailer, and he and his family was living in a motel as the town wouldn't give them an occupancy permit without power. They wouldn't even let them move in their furniture. The lived in the motel for more than 3 months.
So, I'd look at the cost and schedule to get power to the site. This could be a costly item.
Good luck.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Doc

I am fortunate enough to not be in a situation where I have to live on the place "right now" per se, so not having power on the place is not a problem at this point. I had planned on a somewhat "off grid" situation anyway, so if things work out the way I am hoping to have them happen then I will never have power lines run into the place in my lifetime. The waterway, if flowing steadily enough for a large portion of the year, and solar are meant to  supply power to my planned future. back up generators are no problem to set up, and I have no problem with running one if needed.

My only loss is the fact that it was logged 10 or so years ago, so I will reap no benefit of any timber off the place in my lifetime most likely. Still not a problem though as land values will continue to rise as they have for the last 20 years in the area, and the trees will continue to grow right along withthe property value. My kids may see the benefits of the timber, but I will reap the rewards of living my dream of semi seclusion.

I will post more info as I get it. the topo map should be here tomorrow or Monday, and I am planning to go up for a personal walkaround in the next couple of weeks. Will let you know what I find from both. May even come up with some good pics, and do a timber cruise....need to order a stick and learn to use it...hmmmm....

You guys are great, and I really appreciate the points of interest. if you have anything in particular you think I should look for please let me know.

Doc

Larry

I was going to say the same as Jim about the power, but looks like you have already thought that out.

I get a agroforestry newsletter from the MU every so often.  This is sorta interesting read about a guy making money sawing what he calls "garbage wood"...might be an idea or two for ya.

http://agebb.missouri.edu/agforest/archives/v9n1/gh11.htm

Hope the land turns out to be what your looking for.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Doc

Quote from: Larry on April 29, 2005, 01:40:19 PM
I was going to say the same as Jim about the power, but looks like you have already thought that out.

I get a agroforestry newsletter from the MU every so often.  This is sorta interesting read about a guy making money sawing what he calls "garbage wood"...might be an idea or two for ya.

http://agebb.missouri.edu/agforest/archives/v9n1/gh11.htm

Hope the land turns out to be what your looking for.


If this parcel doesn't there will be another. I will find what I am looking for. The plan is made in my head, and about to be transferred to paper before I have a brain fart and forget it. I just have to find what I am looking for, and this may very well be it........

I will read that article closely. I am of the thinking....one mans garbage is another mans gold. I don't toss much if I can find a use for it.

Doc

Doc

I contacted a consultant forester yesterday after reading the first post about doing a walk through with me. I am thinking I may have to hold off on that one till I actually get the place. Not that the service is not worth it, but for what he is charging an hour, and mileage, I will be eating my down payment money by hiring it done beforehand. I think I have enough of a brain in my head to know what I am looking at before I purchase, and will hire the guy to help me set up a plan once I have the place (regardless of this one or another).

I aimed him at these forums, and he may make an appearance. I told him there was a good mix of people from sawyers, and loggers to foresters and the like here, and he perked up and said he had never heard of it before but might check it out. Seemed like a nice enough fella.

I have this place and two others to look at in the same weekend, so I will be busy when I finally get a chance to go look. We shall see what comes about form them as I get the chance to look.

Now generally, I am looking to keep the hardwood on the property growing, regardless of what parcel I pick up. I hate pine so that will come down for the various small construction projects that will be done on the property, along with some poplar. there seems to be an abundance of both of these down here so I doubt I can go wrong by saying that without looking.

There used to be black cherry down here (southeast), but I have been told some kind of blight or disease took out almost all of it many decades ago. Can someone tell me what killed these trees here? I think I have a small one growing in my back yard that appears to be fairly healthy, and if it bears any fruit at all I may try to catch a few cherries for seed. I love the wood, and would love to have some trees growing. They may never mature to harvest in my lifetime, but I woudl still like to leave them for my kids.

Doc

Riles

Doc, I've got black cherry on my farm just outside of Charlotte, so it's not a Southeastern blight thing. Interestingly, the Audubon Field guide has a blank spot in the natural range that appears to be over Louisiana. Maybe there's something in the water...
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

Doc

My source of information is my grandfather, and while I see the occassional wild black cherry being sawn here at a small circle mill I buy from on occassion, he doesn't get much of it (but he is dirt cheap).

I am in North Alabama, and as I understand it from my grandfather, whose father was a sawyer close by here, most of the wild cherry died here due to some kind of disease. I still see it here and there, but very very few and far between. Not large patches of it at all.

I am curious as to how hard this stuff is to get to propagate elsewhere if I can find cherries dropping or seedlings.....

Doc

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