Old Growth

[Ron Scott]

The Environmental Assessment for designated Old Growth on the Huron-Manistee National Forests is now available.

Public comment is now being accepted. submit comments by April 15, 2001 to:

Jim Schuler; Forest Supervisor
1755 S. Mitchell Street
Cadillac, MI 49601

The environmental assessment is available at
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/hmnf/hmindex.htm and in hard copy upon request.

[BCCrouch]

As I was downstate on business and could not attend the meeting, I was wondering as to your impression of the meeting?

[Ron Scott]

The public information meeting on March 14th was a good meeting. It was well done, with many questions answered. Dr. Burton Barnes, University of Michigan ecologist added to it. People need to be aware of the National Forest acres that will be set aside with restricted management for multiple use.  

[RavioliKid]

Basic question: What is "multiple use"?

[Ron Wenrich]

Multiple use is where you use your woodland for more than one specific purpose.  For example, recreation and timber production.

This was brought about in the late '60s, I believe.  At one time, timber production was a primary purpose on much of the federal land.  That designation was changed to allow other uses besides timber production.

Although it sounds easy enough, some forms of timber management in certain areas would have to take different strategies.  Wildlife habitiat would be protected or enhanced, for example.  Buffering to protect aesthetics in heavier recreational areas would be another.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, the Multiple Use and Sustained yield Act of 1969.

Multiple Use is the management of public lands and their various resource values (Soil, Air, Water, Wildlife, Recreation, Aesthetics, Timber, Forage, Wilderness) so they are utilized in the combination that will meet the present and future needs of the American people.

[RavioliKid]

More naivite...

What other uses combine well with serious (clear cut)logging?

[timberbeast]

Hiking,  camping,  hunting,  fishing,  wildlife preservation (thermal cover,  etc.).  snowmobiling,  Atv riding,  small stream preservation,  etc.

[RavioliKid]

To hear people talk about it, clear cutting spoils the land for other uses until the forest regenerates.

Are there any areas anyone could recommend to me to see a clear cut that is useful for other purposes while it is regrowing?

[L. Wakefield]

   2 things- 1)A clearcut may be totally groomed- slash removed- or the slash may be left there. Depending on what these 'other uses' are, one of these methods may be more preferable. The slash is good cover for wildlife, and fresh branches may be a food source as well. The aesthetics of it is not so great to the eye of the 'recreator' who is hoping for a 'wild park' vista.
 
2) A question- Was the 'Multiple use and Sustained Yield Act of 1969' a Federal thing, or a Michigan thing? How binding is it, and on what types of woodland, and where? (OK, I guess that's actually about 4 questions..)   LW 8)

[Ron Wenrich]

Clearcutting with slash removal may not be everything it is cracked up to be.  90% of all nutrients are in the fines (leaves and small limbs).  The other 10% is in the bole.  It is unknown how several clearcuts with slash removal will effect the nutrient cycle.

Leaving the slash also protects seedlings from wildlife and helps shade the seedling.

Slash can also be burnt on site, which puts potash back into the soil.  

But, slash in any type of cutting, can attract insects and effect residual timber.  One of the causes for gum streaks in black cherry is from peach bark beetles being attracted to the slash.

Rav:

A clearcut, after it is regrowing is called a forest.  It's just that it is a lot smaller in size than old growth.  Look at any forested area, and chances are, it was previously clearcut.

Clearcuts that aren't regrowing are called strip malls and developments.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, The National Enviornmental Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA) and its associate,The National Forest Management Act of 1976 are Federal Laws and apply to all National Forest federal system lands etc.

An example of beneficial clearcutting: Survival of the Kirtlands Warbler, an endangered species, depends upon clearcutting of Jack Pine for nesting sites. In addition commercial timber is provided from this regeneration need for jack pine nesting sites for the Kirtlands Warbler.

Examples of such large clearcuts up to 500 acres can be seen on the Huron National Forest and nearby State Forest system lands. Public Tours are provided. The Kirtland Warbler Festival is comming up soon. Contact the Mio, MI Chamber of Commerce of the Mio Ranger Station, USDA-Forest Service for information if interested. Very educational program.

  

[Tom]

As a Forest Steward in our Forestry Stewardship program I have options for the development of Tree Farm land over and above row cropping pines.

One of the options is hunting and another is wildlife management.  Clear cutting creates "edges".  There are animals who prefer to spend their lives in edges rather than deep forest or open fields.  Quail, rabbits, mice and deer are animals that benefit from clear cutting.

[RavioliKid]

Ron,

I realize that a replanted clearcut is a forest - a young forest.

But, would the general populace look at a very young forest and say, "Hmmm, a forest."?

How long does a forest have to grow before it "looks" like a forest?

[Jeff]

Rav, First, How tall are you?

[RavioliKid]

Jeff,

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Love,
Kim

[Ron Wenrich]

A lot will depend on definitions.  What is old growth?  What size of trees do you need to get a forest?  How big of an area is needed for a forest?

Bristlcone pine is older than redwoods, but are considerably smaller.  One of the oldest living plants is the box huckleberry, which is only about 40 mi from me in PA.  It covers several acres.

The whole problem with old growth is definitions.  I think most people confuse old growth with pristine.  There is a difference.

I would think that most people would find suitable "old growth" in a 50-75 yr old forest.  Trees are big enough to barely get your arms around.  A young forest may be possible in 25-30 years.  Stout stems, but nothing too big.  Before that it is pole timber and saplings.

True old growth would mean that we get into more of a 400 year managment scheme that would take us through the pioneer, intermediate, and then to a climax forest.  The climax forest would consists primarily of hemlock, white oak, hard maple and beech.

Very few climax forests are left in the US.  Even the "old growth" Doug fir stands of the West coast aren't true climax forests.  

[RavioliKid]

I think what I mean is "older growth" forests.

We have an area around here that was purchased by Kellogg - THE W.K. Kellogg - and reforested, around the turn of the last century, I think. The trees there are huge.

A pine in my neighbor's yard was planted when then moved in around 45 years ago, and it is definitely a sizeable tree.

So, would 25-50 years be a good estimate for how long a forest would have to grow before a lay person would look at it and say, "Hey, it's a forest!"?

 :

[Ron Scott]

A forest is an ecosystem characterized by a more or less dense and extensive tree cover. Forests may include special kinds, even plantations. Age is only one component of a forest.

[RavioliKid]

I guess I'm being dense (or flogging a dead horse)
But, is there any way to answer people who moan about cutting down trees?

I always tell my students that logging is good because we can always grow more trees. The good thing about kids is that they always (alomst always) believe me - and they don't have a well-developed sense of time.

How about adults who understand what a decade is? Can you say, "In twenty years, you'll have a picnic on this site?"

Is there any frame of reference to use for how long it takes a reasonably mature (oldish-growth) forest to grow?

[Tom]

Old growth.....hmm.....at the risk of being a cynic.......

Environment extremist (Ee's), who seem to have all of the answers, don't ever give a definition do they?

I interpret their "old growth" forest as one that was naturally seeded, unattended throughout its evolutionary growth, Matured to the point that it contains the upper echelon of trees that will develop in that particular ecosystem and canopied over such that no new growth can exist amongst those lucky enough to have found a spot all their own.

Now that means that "Man",  the one thing on this planet that Ee's think shouldn't exist,  isn't welcome because his needs (fire, clothing and shelter) would endanger these plants that had become "king of the mountain".

 So, I guess the definition according to this blurb is Old growth means evolutionary mature regardless of size.

Trees grow old the same as people.  If we, as a part of the ecosystem, need a tree then we are better off taking it before it reaches declining maturity and before it has inhibited the growth of other trees that would replace it.

My Granddaddy was a fine old gentleman.  He was a tribute to the society.  He was a newspaperman, railroad man, clergyman and Judge.  If someone had needed an organ for transplant and his carcass had been available, he would have made an excellent donor.  By the time I new him in his declining years his organs were worn out and he was sick.  Using him for transplants at the time of his death wouldn't have benefited anybody for very long. (I don't support genocide either.)

Mature Trees or as my forester calls them, "Overly Mature",  don't benefit anybody either.....except for perhaps visual gratification.  They are generally too big to handle.  They have declining root systems and lack stability. Disease and rot in their boles inhibits their use for lumber and huge canopies prevent the development of future trees.  Ferns and mosses are about the only thing that will co-exist in an environment like that and their density may prevent the reseeding of an old tree when it naturally succumbs.  Perhaps a forest should first be considered "old growth" when it can still produce a product and is on the verge of declining.

If you take the stance that humans belong in this ecosystem then I agree with you that 'Logging is Good'.  Of course it must be performed properly and who else would be better to judge than the logger whose lively hood depends on it.  It is unfortunate that the people who get the most press shoot from behind a desk and are "Educated Beyond Their Intelligence".

So, keep on teaching.  I think you're on the right track.

[Ron Scott]

Rav,
Its ok to say 20-30 years if it helps one relate to trees being renewed on a site. Trees are a renewable resource and some species grow faster than others. Bigger trees are more "likeable"

Trees have an economic maturity when they are harvested for their best timber value and an age maturity when they are left to grow on for other  resource values. This puts the age factor into Old Growth Forests.

Trees need to be managed for forest and ecosystem sustainability.

Old Growth forests and ecosystems are complex subjects. Some very good information and possible teaching aids can be obtained from the Huron-Manistee National Forests at 1=(800)821-6263. Talk to Jim DiMaio or Carol Nilsson. Carol might even be able to provide a classroom session for your students.

[RavioliKid]

Thanks Ron and Tom and everyone else who has been so patient with my questions.

I sure am learning a lot - including seeing just how important it is to make sure everyone is using the same definitions. People start rolling their eyes  : at me in school when I start in on "What do we mean by..."

Thanks again!

[Ron Scott]

Received a "heads up" call today from the Deputy Forest Supervisor, Huron-Manistee National Forests  telling me that the Forest Supervisor's Decision Notice for the Forests' Plan Amendment on Old Growth was going in the mail today after the public comment period.


Watch for It!