iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

ya know what really irritates me?

Started by babylogger, April 21, 2005, 01:43:53 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

babylogger

i hope this is the right forum and its not targeted toward anyone, ok? i was reading some of the threads and the problems with logging. ok you will have bad and good loggers just like any other job, but for everyone who has a problem with it let me ask you some questions! do you use paper? do you buy cards for your loved ones? do you use paper to write on? do you have a checking acct and a ckbk thats made with paper? do you have a title to your vehicle? how about ins cards? do you use toilet paper?? if you answered yes, then where the heck do you think these things come from? TREES!!! if it wasnt for loggers youd really have no modern conveniences and youd be using ferns instead of tp! (sorry if this offends anyone)
love logger

Paschale

Hey there, Babylogger,

I think you're preaching to the choir.   ;)  We're all supportive of loggers, and the logging industry in here.  I for one am very appreciative of the skills and hard work of the logging industry.  I'm very grateful that I have paper,  (especially tp!).  ;)  There was a thread we had going about bumper stickers, and many of them were very funny about logging, and essentially said the same things you were saying.  That being said, like you said, there are good loggers and bad loggers, just like there are good dentists and bad dentists, or any other category you might want to talk about.  When it comes to injustice, whether it be in logging, or car repair, or real estate, or the like, then I think you'll find the people here on the forum squarely coming down on the side of the little guy. It has very little to do with logging, ultimately, and everything to do with justice, scruples and integrity, or the lack thereof.  Unfortunately, there are bad loggers out there, and they give a bad name to the majority of the good and scrupulous loggers out there who work from an ethical framework.  The threads you're referring to are probably about the bad eggs.  Just because people on the forum rail against the injustices done by these bad guys, doesn't mean that any of us are anti-logging.  In fact, we're all so passionate about good logging practices, it makes us be that much more vocal about it when bad loggers do their worst.

Just my two cents...



Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

redpowerd

well said paschale.

i think anything bad said here about loggers would be about bad loggers. well do the same with bad sawers and bad politicians, too.

kind of a warning to people that aspire to be bad loggers, or may end up dealing with one.
NO FARMERS -- NO FOOD
northern adirondak yankee farmer

Black_Bear

Hey dude you forgot to ask everyone what their houses were made of. There is a reason why housing starts are used as a gauge for the supply and demand of wood products.

Paper products are just one sector of the wood products industry that happen to be driven by supply and demand. Paper products are rather inelastic, meaning the price can rise and people will still be willing to pay a little more for that 2-ply cottony-soft TP. That does not hold true for stumpage prices and, to a lesser degree, lumber.

Don't let a little criticism get to you.  If you do good work and feel good about it don't worry about what others say and do. Just keep on chugging.

Paschale said it: You are preaching to the choir.

BTW, no offense taken.  The company I worked for for 8 years in the early to mid 90s was not well liked for our forest practices. There was not a lot wrong in what we were doing, it was simply a public perception. The public cries when they see a clearcut or a cut that does not meet public approval for one reason or the other. Granted it may be ugly, but here in the northeast 99 out of 100 times that clearcut will grow back into a beautiful stand of timber. Public perception is an important faction of logging and forestry today and all who are involved need to be aware of this.

And yes, I do have a bumper sticker that reads:  If you object to logging, try using plastic toilet paper.  

slowzuki

The problem I tend to have is related to that chart Swampy posted awhile back.  You get more volume managing a stand then simply clearcutting and walking away.

Sure both grow back but the clearcut takes longer to regain volume.  If the clearcut is manually replanted you end up with large monoculture plantations susceptible to disease and insect attack.

I'm lucky that our property was owned by a gentleman and his brother that performed careful work while working.  Areas which were even aged and mature were clearcut but they were flexible enough to not apply that to the whole property.  They also did this over a long enough time the remaining mature trees seeded the clearcut areas where the duff had been disturbed.

Many large companies may own say 200 acres with 150 acres of it being mature.  Instead of managing the 50 acres left they clearcut it all so they don't have to go back later.  They can just try and package it up with other properties to trade off for some mature crown land here.

Black_Bear

I didn't see the chart Swampy posted, but I can venture a guess that it depicted that a management regime may produce a greater net volume due to the capture of timber that would otherwise be lost to natural mortality.

That does not take into account the discount rate that must be applied to timber cut in the future. To clearcut today gives an immediate, undiscounted return on your timber. Some landowners can't see past this.

Personally, I am an advocate for selection systems. This applies to the financial side of the management regime and the operational side of the management regime. I also realize not all stands are ideal for a selection system. In the end, it boils down to the forester being able to assess the situation, devise a plan that will meet the landowners objectives, advise them of the pitfalls and rewards, and implement the plan. Most larger companies today have an eye on sustainability but they also have an eye on the bottom line, and a good looking bottom line is what makes the investors happy.

There is not much planting going on here in New England; there is no need for it, we are blessed with excellent environments for natural regeneration. The majority of the planting is being done by Irving up in the northern reaches of Maine.

One last thing, when it comes to regeneration most northeast species do not benefit greatly from clearcutting . Species such as hard maple, white pine, yellow birch, and spruce/fir benefit, both in density and in form, if they are regenerated under some sort of shelterwood or selection system. That's not to say that a clearcut won't produce a nice stand someday, but the pioneer species are more apt to occupy these sites shortly after clearcutting.   

Kind of off topic of the thread, but I'm just going with the flow. 

Kirk_Allen

 8) 8) Bravo Paschale Bravo 8) 8)

babylogger I would suggest reading LOTS more threads and get a better feel for the people on this forum.  There is not a better group of folks out there that care as much as we do about the timber industry.   Just recently I spoke of a logger that is a local shyster.  Fortunatly for us in this area the word is getting out about him and it will help both the good loggers and the landowners. 

I bet if you read enough on hear you can find far more positives on logging than negatives. 

MemphisLogger

Babylogger,

Your point is well taken, but defending wasteful resource management by picking out a list of products that we all "need" doesn't do the issue justice. 

Here in the South we've seen a huge increase in evenage hardwood management (read indiscriminate clearcutting) over the last 2 decades. The primary driver behind this has been hardwood chip production for coated papers, rayon and acetate with a good portion of it for export to Asia.  :-\

The end use of this hardwood fiber is not even so noble as TP. A larger part of it goes into the disposable packaging that our cheap consumer goods come in. That's one of the reasons I refuse to shop at the "big box" hardware stores--everything they sell comes over packaged. I much prefer my corner hardware where items are not packaged but sold out of bins.  :)

The other impetous for pulp production from hardwoods is computer paper. Ink jet printers and copying machines like smooth surfaced paper made from hardwood (mainly Oak) pulp. Computers were supposed to lead to a "paperless" society right? WRONG! Now we have a bunch of kids and lazy people printing out and/or copying every webpage they visit or document they receive--actually using more paper than we did back in the days of carbon copies and typewriters.  Another culprit is the immense volume of glossy catalogs distributed with abandon in our consumer culture.

Because these end uses are "low value", the prices paid at the chipmill are extremely low and thus stumpage and logger pay are low too. The loggers really get it the worst in my opinioin as they are forced to invest heavily in big equipment to move enough tonnage to make any money at the scales--one of my favorite logging bumper stickers is "Feller Bunchers Repalce a Bunch of Fellas".

Everybody involved would make more money if the woods were managed selectively for a full range of products from sawlogs to pallet wood to pulp. Of course this requires longterm planning and careful management which many in our instant-gratification/return society can't grasp.

IMHO, sawlogs are the best and highest goal of hardwood forest management--select for stand improvement and send the culls off for pulpwood.

Of course, there are many tracts of forestland that have been converted to fiber crops (read pine) and clearcutting is likely the best and most efficient way to harvest these lands.   

As for my own paper use--we wipe with 100% post-consumer recycled TP which comes largely from recycled packaging and use 100% tree-free paper in our printer made from Kenaf growing on previously abused cotton land (the Kenaf effectively conditions the soil for subsequent hardwood reestablishment).

Huggin' trees just before I saw 'em up to make something built to last,

Scott     


         
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

timberjack240

babylogger
i agree. me and you think a lot alike on this issue

OLD_ JD

I sure agree whit u babylogger,but we have to understand on some case cleancut IS the only way out :-\..i remenber few year ago i ask a forester about some thinning to do on a hemlock area....who i didn't whante to cleancut the  place....we hade no choise to cleancut some plot on 50% of that over mature forest even if they where not THAT big :-\...now it almost time to go back again and cleancut the rest :-[

what i realy dont like is when i see nice stand where they could be manage for the future, and just bein cleancut for pulpwood :'(..
some pep juge us coze we cleancut some area just bcoze by a fast look they think we are "killing" some forest ...but they never ask there self IF those nice hardwood stand was not "kill".....20-or 40 yeard ago..... ;)
canadien forest ranger

Scott

 What really ticks me off is the huge ruts left everywhere after the cutting is done. These ruts will probably never heal, there's too many of them and theyre way too big. Another big tick off for me is the crappy roads I see a lot of guys building lately. They just dig big holes with the excavator and plop all the dirt down and call it a road. The ditches they dig for dirt don't even drain the water off, it all just collects in pools. Sorry to ramble but this stuff really annoys me. The forest will grow back but that road is always gonna be there.  :-\

Texas Ranger

The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

beenthere

Well Scott, how do you propose to do the road when you get into the logging business and have to get those trees out?   ???  : ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Black_Bear

UrbanLogger:  That was well said.

I agree 100% about the high grade sawlogs. A lot of those low-grade stands exist today because of poor past cutting practices.  

The northeast is dense with low grade red maple/white birch stands that have been highgraded for decades now. Currently, the University of Maine is a worldwide leader in laminated wood-product research. Hopefully they can devise and successfully market new products that will consume a good portion of this low grade wood.

And as the Texas Ranger mentioned, the fact that anyone would work without a contract when extracting timber is absurd. It doesn't matter if you are a logger, landowner, or forester. They are just begging for trouble if you ask me.  

MemphisLogger

Black_Bear,

I hear ya on the highgrading. I just went out and looked at a stand for a feall that wants me to saw out a barn for him. He has 72 acres that he boaught 2 years ago. The previous owner had had it cut (highgraded) a few years before that.

I walked around and all I could find was Post Oak, Sweetgum and a few Poplars. The only stuff over 15" was the Sweetgum and Poplar and nearly every tree was skidder-wounded   :-[

We're gonna use up what we can of the Post Oaks and make board and batten outta the Poplar and then the customer's gonna go down to the Division of Forestry and get him a mess of sapling to scatter around. It'll be another 30 years though before any decent wood comes off the land again.   :'(   
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Black_Bear

Yessir UrbanLogger, we in  the northeast will be cleaning up lots like that for years to come, albeit with different low-grade species.

If people would just learn to take a little bit of the sour with the sweet and not hog out on the grade, the forests would be in much better shape grade-wise. But, you know how it goes.

How much does a sapling cost?  Sounds expensive.

duramax

I agree with all you guys on sustainable forestry practices!! I'm 26 and have been logging for 10 years full time. When I started there was lots of private land for everyone around but because of poor logging, there is almost none left. Even when the county put restrictions on clear cuts, people still did it anyways because they knew there would be no consequences. The only consequence being that the younger generation of loggers (like me) were getting screwed over. Now the only work most loggers are stuck with are contracts from large sawmills which for ,as most of you know, is not the most profitable approach. We used to make a really good living with older , cheaper machines, but now have had to make the change to mechanized harvesting. Now we've invested over 1 million (Canadian Dollars) in order to cut enough wood to make a living. We work longer days, pay 10 times as much in insurance, 5 times more fuel and end up with less money at the end of the year. I often wonder if I should continue in this business or try something else. I've watched so many contracters go under in the last 5 years its not even funny.  My Dad often gets discouraged as well , he started back in the 70's , times were a whole lot different back then. I wish I could have started back then too an have some of the good years....
1999 Timbco T455D , 1999 Timberjack 560 dual arch grapple, 1987 Timberjack 450 cable , 1998 Husky Brute XL235 loader w/slasher

Scott

If i were in the business I'd plan out my roads so they follow the best path. Next I'd move the stumps, branches etc off the right of way, not move it all to the center to be burried under the dirt (they start to poke up through the road after awhile). Then I'd set to work grubbing out the road. Ditches would be a reasonable size not the huge trenches often seen around here (sometimes 12 feet wide and 10 feet deep if a lot of dirt is needed on the road) I'd try to use a small on site gravel pit if extra fill is needed for the road. Most operators here either make the ditch larger when they need more dirt or pick a spot beside the road and dig a dig hole, both create drainage problems. Also i wouldn't dig ditches where their not needed, it just creates more damage, simply putting a slight crown on the road will do the trick in many places.
  As far as moving those trees out to the roads, smaller equipment helps a lot but I guess thats not really an option for most operators. Waiting for the ground to either dry out or freeze up goes a long ways in wet areas. Planning out skid trails never hurt either. Forwarders seems to do less damage than a skidder too. These are just my thoughts, but I've seen them work when people are willing to give them a chance. This is WAY off topic  ::) :)

Scott

 Duramax, Where are you located? I've often wondered how loggers can make ends meet with equipment prices (I've seen harvesters go for over 600,000) :o. Its frustrating to consider that wood prices are skyrocketing here but yet loggers are seeing no more money  ::).

Black_Bear


duramax

To those of you who inquire, Lachute is about 45 minutes NW of Montreal. Anyways , yes its extremely frustrating having huge monthy payments, and whenever we ask for a rate increase or a fuel cost adjustment, the mills either say "you're not efficient enough"or "you're not producing enough"or" work more hours" . This gets under my skin like you wouldn't believe!!!!!!  Hardwood lumber it worth twice as much as it was 10 years ago and we get the same rates as 15 years ago.  The problem is there are so many cut-throats here in Quebec that don't know when they're operating below cost. These are the ones that are going under as I mentioned earlier. Untill they cease to exist and the stronger ones have the upper hand, only then MAYBE the loggers will have more bargaining power. Sorry for all the complaining, if anyone else is in this boat with me.....misery loves company.
1999 Timbco T455D , 1999 Timberjack 560 dual arch grapple, 1987 Timberjack 450 cable , 1998 Husky Brute XL235 loader w/slasher

Black_Bear

Duramax:

How do the supply of logs coming into Quebec from the States affect your area?

Do you supply mills that also buy American logs and if so how has NAFTA affected the prices which you receive?

The American Govt seems to be playing hardball in the never-ending softwood lumber dispute. They hate to see some other country get the best of them. It would be something if the WTO forced the U.S. to pay back some of the tariffs and duties they have collected since 1998.

I apologize for putting you on the spot, but I am currently taking a U.S./Canadian business course and I find the Quebec/U.S. relationship an intriguing and historical one. 

duramax

Actually the mills we work for (and not sell to) don't buy alot of logs from the states. I wish I had wood to sell rather than cut the wood that the mills have allocated to them by the govenment. Up here more than half of the land in Canada is govenment owned. This makes it very hard for loggers to control commodity prices. We in turn must work for the mill on Crown land. There are also too many small mills in Quebec. For the past 3 years the Ministry of Natural Resources has changed the tree marking scheme 4 times. They're leaning more and more towards poorer quality trees so that there are less good sawlogs. This is an atempt to starve the weaker mills. And it's working. I know of at least 3 mills that were forced to close since they started this. The reason they're doing this is because there never used to be any kind of sustainable forestry practices in the 60's,70's and early 80's . Everything was clear cut. So in fact there isn't much effect on me regarding wood being shipped in from the U.S.

On the other hand, the softwood tarifs on Canadian wood going to the States does have an effect on me. The whole argument is that the U.S. claims that the Canadian mills are heavily subsidised by the government. This is not true. The mills must pay stumpage like everybody else. The closer the wood is to their mill, the more they have to pay and so on. So the tarifs that are placed on exports are more ar less deducted from the logging contractors. That forces us to try to be more efficent or work more hours. The problem with this is the harder we run the equipment the sooner it wears out and by the time they're paid for, they're finished . Then the cycle starts over again. 

I hope this answers your questions.
-Matt

1999 Timbco T455D , 1999 Timberjack 560 dual arch grapple, 1987 Timberjack 450 cable , 1998 Husky Brute XL235 loader w/slasher

Black_Bear

What method is used to allocate wood to the mills? Is it contractual, by bid, etc.

Some of the material I have read indicates that the Canadian stumpage programs provide a financial benefit to the producers. Apparently the mills feel the pinch and pass the cost onto guys like yourself. That sounds very similar to what is happening here.   

I understand how the tariffs have a trickle down effect on guys like yourself. It is too bad the U.S. Dept of Commerce does not see the regional picture and just sees the big picture.

I am from northern VT at the Rock-Island/Derby Line border and all you see are log trucks going north on I-91 and lumber trucks heading south on I-91. It is quite sad that we must continue to send our lumber north in order to be efficient. Are the majority of the operating mills in Quebec equipped with the latest optimizing equipment?

Ed

duramax

  I'm not sure exactly how the stumpage program works. I know that each mill is allocated a certain volume per year , the cut blocks are given to the closest mill. Then the mill takes the wood the it's equipped to do, and the other species are allocated to other mills in the area. This can be very difficult for the contractors. On a job we did for another contractor last winter, the wood was distributed to 14 different mills. Spuce&Balsam to one mill , cedar to another ,poplar to another and so on and so on...

    The mill we worked for last winter is highly efficient  with alot of new optimizing equipment. I'm not exactly sure what their production numbers are but it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 bf per shift.

    I guess the reason for all the hardwood logs being shipped to Quebec from the U.S. is because of the dwindling supply of good sawlogs being harvested here. We need to ship our softwood south of the border because there isn't enough demand here for the volume that we produce. Quebec has more softwood because of the climate in the north, most of Quebec is barren like.

    I really hope the situation changes for the better in the next few years for both Canada and the U.S.
1999 Timbco T455D , 1999 Timberjack 560 dual arch grapple, 1987 Timberjack 450 cable , 1998 Husky Brute XL235 loader w/slasher

OLD_ JD

the way i understant this situation is,U.S. think the stumpfee they pay for the wood is kind of "undercover" subsy but in fact most of the teritory is so far off where there no road,no town....nothing :o as ex: the town of lebel sur Quevillons who was built in ALL by a lumber comp :o.more they go far up north less they paid for the wood.in U.S. where is mostly private land whit easy acces,the price of the log is more $$ wise..
about the $$ they paid for the wood it's depend of the geo. situation more u go up less u paid,whene u open a mill the gouv.have to supply u of so manny metric cubic wood\ per year
about the wood from the U.S. here where i live ,close to the border i see several truck coming every day loaded of saw log,mostely pulp and 3 and 4 grade saw log,are mill are more efficent and that kind of log
J.D.
canadien forest ranger

Ron Wenrich

Duramax

In an early post, you said you supported sustainable forestry.  In a later post you complained about the marking of low quality wood, and how you think that is being done to squeeze out smaller mills. 

If this sustainable thing is going to work, then you're going to have to start to take out that low grade from the woods.  That's one of the problems about having an industry try to regulate themselves.  They talk about the ideal, but have to revert to bad practices to remain in the game.  I doubt that the government is trying to force weak mills out to support bigger mills, but is marking timber in a more sustainable manner. 

We used to sell lumber to Canadian markets.  I believe a lot of it went to the export markets in Europe.  Europe isn't exactly a hot spot of activity anymore, so those markets have pretty well closed for us, for the time being. 

I know the Canadians used to come pretty far south for logs.  It was mainly oak, which was a lot more plentiful here.  Oak markets have pretty well dried up in recent years, and I don't hear too much about the Canadians buying logs.  I'm sure the trucking costs have a lot to do with it, as well.

The fall of the American dollar has probably hurt, as well.  Your lumber isn't as "cheap" as it used to be and our sawlogs continue to be at a better price. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Black_Bear

Maybe being right at the border is different because you always see the trucks coming and going. When I was back in VT in early April I drove from Lyndonville to the border and passed no fewer than a dozen trucks loaded with hard and softwood logs. Like Ron said, most of the hardwood was Oak. One of the truckers I talked to last month was coming from southern NH and northern MA.

I'm sure the dried up European market and the U.S. dollar has affected the trade, but to what extent?

I think one difference here is that if you own a mill you are not dependent on the govt for much of anything except tax breaks and regs.

Old_JD, the town you wrote of sounds a lot like the towns in northern Maine. The infrastructure may be intact, but at one time roads did have to be punched in and there wasn't much govt. assistance for that.

MemphisLogger

Quote from: Black_Bear on April 21, 2005, 06:31:32 PM
How much does a sapling cost?  Sounds expensive.

The Division sells 'em by the bundles. I think it ends up working out to a few cents each. They've given thousands to our neighborhood associations to promote urban plantings after our severe storms. They're typically 1/2" to 3/4" caliper so you have to "dibble" a lot of them to get good success. My favorites are the Chinkapins and Swamp Whites.

Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

slowzuki

Swampdonkey would be the best person to answer this but in New Brunswick, I think it works like this:

Crown lands - their are only a few licences to cut on crown land issued.  The big players get them as they have to have harvesting and enviromental plans made up.  The licences allows a certain harvest in certain areas and you must pay stumpage fees to the province.

No small guys get a licence.  The big players sell parts of their license to smaller mill or subcontract the harvesting.  The smaller mills also sub out the harvesting.

So basically, the only way a small outfits gets to operate on crown land is via contract work with a larger mill or forest products company.

This is bad and good.  The good part is the larger company has management plans and may supervise the work.  They don't want envirmental fines etc because they can't just go out of business to deal with it.

Bad is the small guys make no money, no incentive to work independantly of the managment plan if some areas weren't considered when prepping the plan.  No chance to harvest based on markets, it all has to be harvested in a period of time or you're fired.

So many small guys try to get private work.  Hard in NB compared to Nova Scotia as they have much more private land.

The private work can be bad and good too.  Some of the "slobber logging" happens here as the owner usually doesn't have the resources or clout to force the contractor into good practices or a good knowledge of what the practises should be.

Ron Wenrich

We have quite a few loggers that subcontract to bigger mills.  Most mills don't have their own logging crew thanks to workman's comp prices.

That can be OK, if you're looking for a steady paycheck; but, you're still at the mercy of the weather and other unknowns.  From a mill standpoint, they know how much they can spend on logs.  So they take that price and deduct the stumpage.  The balance goes to logging and trucking.

It works out OK if stumpage isn't too high or log prices too low.  But, everyone likes to squeeze someone else.  Mills often own the trucks, so they can only squeeze the logger.  They can do it in 2 ways - by unit price or by grade stick. 

I've known several successful independent loggers.  They make their money on marketing logs, not so much by logging.  When you subcontract, you lose that ability and the lucrative end of logging.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

slowzuki

Another point is the government here does not provide any form of roadways to its land or maintenance, nothing. 

I've heard in the US they US Forest Service builds roads and seems to be more involved.

duramax

 Ron,
   
       I know it sounds rediculous that the government would try to starve a mill, but I've heard this from at least 3 different reliable sources. An engineer, a representative of the Ministry of Natural Resources, and a sawmill owner.

      As for the tree marking issue, we were already removing UGS trees (unacceptable growing stock) and no AGS trees. The percentage of trees removed went from 40% to 35% to 30% and now were at about 25%. When you start walking a feller buncher 150 feet between trees, there isn't much production. The buncher does all the work and we need to take cash from the skidders to support the cost of the buncher.  We never sacrifice the quality of our work to increase production. Most of the mills that we work for appreciate not having to pay fines, so we are in demand.  If it comes down to us ruining our reputation to make ends meet, we'll quit.

      The problem still reverts to the mills not getting the volume of logs they need to survive. We're producing more pulpwood instead of sawlogs. Untill they weed out the weaker mills, the large mills will continue to suffer as well. I also forgot to mention that this season the MNR is only issuing half of the AAC to each mill untill october. At that point, they will only issue another 20 to 30% to the mills that have completed all of thier allocated cuts. So in fact they're cutting back a total of 20% of the  overall AAC.

      Time will tell what's going to happen to the loggers from all of this.
1999 Timbco T455D , 1999 Timberjack 560 dual arch grapple, 1987 Timberjack 450 cable , 1998 Husky Brute XL235 loader w/slasher

MemphisLogger

Quote from: slowzuki on April 22, 2005, 02:49:30 PM
Another point is the government here does not provide any form of roadways to its land or maintenance, nothing. 

I've heard in the US they US Forest Service builds roads and seems to be more involved.

This is true, Slowzuki. It is effectively a subsidy on many US Nat'l Forests.

Many landowners I know feel that there is unfair socialist market competition from some Nat'l Forest districts, particularly in the South where we have exceptionally productive growth conditions.

Private landowners who have to eat the costs of TSI and road maintenance are forced to compete for stumpage with federal managers that tally those costs in another account.

This ends up being a disincentive to manage uneven-age and many choose to crop pulp in shorter rotations for fast cash.
 
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Thank You Sponsors!