iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

My first-time sawyer experiences & LM2000 critique ....

Started by TexasTimbers, April 15, 2005, 10:56:44 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TexasTimbers

I still don't know anything really, but I know alot more than I did monday. I finished putting together the Norwood LM2000 Monday night, and Tuesday cut down a 75' Loblolly pine 28" DBH (with my new badarse 372XP  ;D). I cut her up into managable lengths for my skid steer to load onto the new mill.
My education began right there and didn't end until I washed the sawdust and sap off my body some 14 hours later, and even there it didn't end as I had to learn best how to get that sticky sap off my hairy arms and out of my quickly graying scalp. Diesel worked for me but I'm sure there has got to be something less ... diesely. Input sought!
So back to the lessons I learned.
Certain things CANNOT be OVER-EMPHASIZED!
Things like safety and hydraulics. And yes they can be inextricably linked.
(Lesson #1) SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT and (Lesson #2) HYDRAULICS ARE KING!
I thought that by having a bobcat I could forgo the necessity of a hydraulic log turner and levelers. Horse feathers.
Loading isn't much of a pain with the cat actually, but turning the log after your initial cut is tedious at best, and hazardous at worst. In fact, it could be deadly if your chains breaks as did mine. I had just told my wife to step away from the log, which was just hanging in mid-air whilst I retrieved a of 2x4 in order to jack the taper up in order to get the log level pith to pith along that imaginary line, when the weakest link in the chain, for no reason, other than it was the weakest link in the chain, let go. Gravity is a powerful thing. It sucked that water-laden chunk of wood to earth so fast you didn't even have time to drop your jaw at the fact that I had just told my wife to "please step away" from the dangling log .... Thank you Lord for sparing my best friend.  Amen.  Lesson #3) Use logging chains to manipulate logs with, not wimpy 1/4" chain which I used out of habit. I even had 3/8" chain in the truck!
I learned quite a few other things too, but I wanna get onto my assessment of the LM2000 for future would-be LM2000 owners.
First the good stuff. The Norwood Lumber Mate 2000 is well made. It isn't junk. The assembly manual that I heard was rather vague was, rather vague in some areas but not too bad really. I was told it would take two days to assemble the unit, but had I been able to concentrate solely on building the machine I could have done it in a 12 hour day I'm sure. As it was, I didn't use more than 14 hours total even though I had to work on it in spurts and spits between other things.
The "debossed" (holes) frame is suprisingly rigid... so far. I dropped a heavy log (Lesson #4 .... logs are h-e-a-v-y) on it once while loading and was sure I'd have to do major repair work, but after I put the unit back on the pads and re-leveled it (7ish minutes maybe), the frame was true blue. I was astounded. I didn't have it set up permantly just shimmed up on some various boards and blocks etc. on rough terrain.
If any prospective buyers ask me wheather I recommend the LM2000, so far (with only app. 6 hours actual use) I'd have to say "Only if you aren't going to use it alot." If you plan to mill any amounts per week at all, spend the extra $$$ on a mill that has hydraulics. This CANNOT be over-emphasized IMHO. But of course I only have 6 hours run time under my belt.
The unit cuts quite precise, but I see modifications I'm going to make immediately. The log dogs suck, as does the 2' removable extension. The postioning of the roller guide extention T-handle is terrible. The aluminum  blade wheel covers are flimsy and the puny latch is miniscule and light weight. The throttle assembly is not comfortable and just feels cheap.
The water deliever system isn't as bad as I'd heard, in my opinion, but still quite shoddy. The blade tensioning system seems adequate to this novice.
The 23 Briggs seems to deliver enough power so far (I haven't cut hardwood yet), but it backfires loudly upon throttle-back nearly everytime, but is probably unique to my specific unit as I've heard no gripes about the 23HP in general, only the 20HP Honda which I think they claim have been worked out. Gotta work on mine if that nasty pop doesn't go away, as it is.
Even though the frame took that one stiff punch on the chin, I can't see it taking many. In hindsight, I should have only ordered the powerhead and made my own frame/rail system. It would be too easy to do if you have any fabrication skills and equipment at all. Heck, in hindsight I should have forked over the dough and bought a real bandsaw.
I mean that tongue-in-cheek really. Not knocking the LM 2000. It's my fault I'm stuck with her for now. I just need more mill. For a person who is going to casually use the mill it probably really is "The best sawmill value ever" just like they claim. I simply made a poor decision to buy it for my needs. I have got to have hydraulics. Like now.
I will either try to add them to this unit to get me through building the house and outbuildings and then sell it next year and step up, or dump the mill now and look for a used LT30/40 or equivilant Timber King, as I can't justify spending $30K right now either. A quandary. A dilemma. A tight spot you might say. That's what I'm in fellas. No worries. It'll all come out in the wash.
Overall, even though I used words like "puny", "miniscule", "flimsy", it is a well-built machine for the $6315 I spent.
Just remember that age-old maxim my friends .... you get what you pay for.
KJ
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Bibbyman

Quite a good report! 

The only help I can add..... maybe....

I've found "Head & Sholders" shampoo works about as good as anything to take red cedar sap off my hands.   I just get into the shower and lather up and keep working at the sap on my hands, arms, etc.

If you've got some moist white oak sawdust,  that works well too.  Handling fresh cut oak lumber will also take walnut stain off'n your hands!!!
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Furby

Kevjay,
I really can't comment too much as I have not seen a LM2000 in person. However, I do have an older model that is pretty close.
The first thing I'll point out, is that you WILL get use to the unit! I did have some of the same thoughts that you have posted when I got mine, but I've worked through things and learned they aren't as messed up as I first thought.
I agree that a fully Hyd. mill would be great and worthwhile, but it's all about the $$$. ;)

I have an axel on mine, and leave it on it when cutting. I like the height, it's about right for me.

I found that if you have equipment to load with, DON"T! Set up some poles/cants/RR ties and load that, then roll the logs on the mill.
It just works better unless you have a really screwball log.

Turning is a bit of work, but at the height the bed is, I can get a bit of leverage and get it to go.
Note: I don't have a canthook or pevey, I just do it by hand.

The T handle that locks the guide is a bit of trouble, but I usually set it wider then needed and leave it.

The throttle lever on mine had been played with when the former owner upgraded the engine. After using it a while, I just took it off and now use the lever that is on the engine and I'm happy with it.

Anyways, just some of my thoughts. Atleast you are making sawdust, eh? ;D

UNCLEBUCK

I dont run a bandmill but just your story in general makes me remember my first days sawing because everything I looked at or touched seemed to be running a mile a minute ahead of myself . Glad your wife got out of the way and all is well . Its a tough feeling to sink money into something and you end up not liking it . Maybe get away from it for a week and build up a big stack of logs next to your new mill and try it again and make that baby earn its keep . Takes awhile to sell things and it would probably look good to have a big slab pile next to it when someone comes to look and maybe by then you will have sawed enough to justify keeping it because it allready paid for itself . Just my thought to get you back into the mood
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Rockn H

Quote from: Furby on April 16, 2005, 12:43:30 AM


Turning is a bit of work, but at the height the bed is, I can get a bit of leverage and get it to go.
Note: I don't have a canthook or pevey, I just do it by hand.





Furby, remind me to stay on your good side. ;D
Kevjay, In a way I know how you feel.  I've gotten pretty used to my manual WM and I'm happy with it.  But, when I go and watch some of the super hydraulics and see how easily they flip a cant or just look at the difference in the drive motors and frame , well it can make me start thinking bigger and better.  It never fails though, once I get back to my little manual and start sawing it just seems bigger and better already.  I guess what I'm saying is UncleBuck may be on to something, pile yourself up some logs and start sawing.  It can be therapeutic. ;)

Fla._Deadheader

QuoteTuesday cut down a 75' Loblolly pine 28" DBH

  Don't believe ya coulda started with anything worse than a big Pine log. Them's heavy, hard, tough, sticky, and all the other things you can think of.

  Might try something in the 20" range, until you get the system workin in yer mind.  ;D ;D ;D

  Liked the report. It was thorough. Where's da board pics ?????? ;D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

TexasTimbers

Lemme try my hand at this insert quote thing .......

Quote from: Bibbyman on April 16, 2005, 12:13:19 AMIf you've got some moist white oak sawdust, that works well too. Handling fresh cut oak lumber will also take walnut stain off'n your hands!!!
If only I had some white oak sawdust to wash off some walnut stain that I wish I had on my hands!!! :D

Quote from: Furby on April 16, 2005, 12:43:30 AMI found that if you have equipment to load with, DON"T! Set up some poles/cants/RR ties and load that, then roll the logs on the mill.
It just works better unless you have a really screwball log.
But of course this makes too much sense! Actually I did run that thru my cornfuzed little head, but I was working contrary to Lesson #5 which states: "Never get in a hurry when handling logs and sawing boards..."
My circle mill is set up that way (still haven't moved it to my property but it's gettin closer to the top of the list) and I am gonna take your advice when I start cutting the loblollies in earnest, and set the mill up "Temporarily Permanently....".

Quote from: UNCLEBUCK on April 16, 2005, 01:11:25 AMJust my thought to get you back into the mood
Oh noooo worries mate, I've never NOT been in the mood! You misinterpret my post, I couldn't be more excited about what lies ahead! I jusy simply bought the wrong saw for my needs, but I intend to suck every sappy drop of satisfaction from it while I have it! 8)

Quote from: Rockn H on April 16, 2005, 03:45:09 AM
pile yourself up some logs and start sawing. It can be therapeutic. ;)
Yah I know, It seems now that every move I make is in some way linked to getting me back to that mill :D I was really looking forward to getting my new shop, which, keeps getting delayed by rain. Now, "I just want to get that damned shop done so I can get back to my mill"!

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on April 16, 2005, 06:19:55 AM
Don't believe ya coulda started with anything worse than a big Pine log.
I coulda started with a 28" Bois D' Arc :D

KJ
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Part_Timer

we cut lots of osage and to be honest i'd rather cut it as opposed to elm or oak.  I guess I just like the way it cuts on the mill.
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

Fla._Deadheader


  Never sawed no Hedge Apple???  Can't comment. ::) ::) ;D ;D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Robert_in_W._Mi.

  Hey Kevjay,

  If you would have got Norwoods manual log turner, you wouldn't have to try to use your skidsteer for turning.  It's not hugely fast, but it's easy and works well.

  I wouldn't worry about the debossed beams too much, they are really tough and will take a pretty good beating!

  Robert

Ironwood

Texas,

gotta say I LIKE the Norwood. I found a used one and for my occasional use I think it really fits the bill. I like the manual turning and care that will be used in clamping up MY wood. I have had (and still have) some fully hydraulic mills here and they tear the H%^L out of my precious sapwood and bark. I cringe when I HAVE to use one of these beasts. My one "sawyer for hire" w/ a Norwood has become undependable and I needed to get my own. I think for the money this unit is hard to beat. AND they help sponser the FF.


           Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Joel Eisner

I have been running my LM2000 for about 3 years now.  I have about $6K in it including the sharpener, 11 blades, setter and axel.  A good cant hook will take care of most the turning okay and I like to set up a good log deck where I can spend 10 min loading up a day's worth of logs and then just roll each one on by hand. 

For the $6K I cut:

-all the timbers, siding, flooring, trim etc for our 1100 SQFT timberframe house
-siding, misc lumber etc for our 36x46 ft pole barn
-siding, trim, doors, misc (in process) for our 3000 SQFT addition to our house
-all the free firewood in the world to heat our house and barn

Now I see it as another woodworking tool in the barn along with the 20" planer, shaper etc and gets a lot of use on a weekly basis but not full time use.

I guess I got my money out of it.   8)
The saga of our timberframe experience continues at boothemountain.blogspot.com.

sawwood

I work with a sawer that has the Norwood mark 4 and it does all we ask of it. Look in my Photo album and you will see the loader and turner we built forn it. We use a bumper winch to pull logs onto the mill from the ties we set up and then to turn the log we use it too. We put the cable arounf the log and hook it to a rope that we hold and let the winch do the work. As they say git you a big pile of logs and go to work, it will git better as you go.

  Lester
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

Ironwood

Joel,

That is exactly how I view it, another woodworking tool. I have needed one for years, and glad I waited as the Norwood is EXACTLY what I need. Nothing more, nothing less, I think it is called "appropriate technology".  ;) Even in my business it is hard to justify the cost of the higher end mills, I have tons of support equipment that also has used up capital and to just have 30-40K sitting on a weekly basis is tough to stomach. There is a $35,000 Timber Harvester sitting over in our other pasture that is MAYBe run 2 time a month for a Saturday run of logs, glad it is not my capital. The other thing that has been nice is, I have seen or ran almost every brand of mill and the Norwood is really a value for the buck.

                    Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey, TexasT

I you're going to rinse sap out of the hair with diesel often,
you might want to go ahead a mix a little Rogain in with it...
just in case your hair starts to fall out.
:D
Sap on clothes:  Goo-Gone (or the generic equivalent) spray
                          then spray something like Shout or another
                          spot spray.   Wash as normal.  Good to let
                          the solvent work overnight, then wash.

Sap on hands:   Baby oil with liquid hand soap works like a charm,
                         but, no, your hands won't be as soft as a baby's
                         behind, but they will smell nice.

;D              Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Toolman

Hey Kevjay,

I'm sorry I chuckled a little while reading your post. It took me back to some past experiences I've had. You have to ask that important question. Did you have fun?
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (Thomas Jefferson)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Now, on the other hand,...

If one can watch one of those seldom-used nice machines languish away
in that seldom-used state long enough, and then make the right offer at the right time,...

you might be able to upgrade to an even more "appropriate level of technology."
As you business grows, of course! ;)
Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

ohsoloco

The only thing I would've changed regarding my Lumbermate, would be not buying the toeboards/log rollers, and putting that money towards a 4 ft. extention.  I hate having to cut the lisides off of some of my walnut crotches to get them in the 24" throat opening.  I love my mill though  :)

Ironwood

 FencerowPhil,

I don't see my appropriate technology EVER in dimensioal lumber business, too much volume, not enough profit to compete with the big guys. I could NEVER want that economy of scale, onesy, twosy is my style. I don't see a place for one of those in my operation in the next 15 years.

Ohsoloco,

I never studied the guys LM mill I used to hire, but I have a feeling my LM2000 my get SSSTRREETCCHHED alittle in width sometime in the near future.  I have a buddy with an Oscar 52 and I don't see any reason the LM couldn't have a 36-40" throat.  ;D Fire up the welder and forge!!! :o

           Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

zopi

You'll get used to the mill..saw about 20 logs or so, get some logrite toys...

I try to keep things set up and neat so I can trot out and cut a few, rather than trying to kill myself sawing
out a whole building in one go..I've racked up a few thousand bd ft with this approach...I am closing in
on beginning construction on my saw shed.
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

TexasTimbers

My needs and experiences have morphed over these last 3 years. I have gone through cycles of thinking I wanted, or needed, to go in one direction or another only to find that I came full circle in a roundabout way and landed somewhere I never could have planned.

I started out with the LM2000 with no intentions of cutting lumber for the public, just using it for our own building needs and my woodworking. I soon had locals knocking on my door and decided I needed a bigger, higher volume mill with hydraulics. So I bought one and got a good deal on it. After all I wasn't going to buy a $40K mill no more than I would have paid $40K for a new truck when I could buy one 3 years old with low miles for 2/3 less. I have nearly 280,000 miles on that F350 now. I only use it for logging now but it is not capital sitting idle.

I used this same philosophy on the sawmill. I do not use it for grade or custom sawing - that was not my cup of tea. So I sought and developed specialty markets. This year I closed the mill to the public for good. I have a dozen or so locals I still cut for because I feel obligated in a way and just plain like them (I culled a few I did not like and have no regrets), but I no longer leave the gate open and do not allow walk-ins. I am an online-only sawmill. I am very fortunate to have the mix of speices and clientele I have, and 2 other income streams if the online milling ever fades or dies. It sure shows no signs of it right now anbd just keeps growing. In fact, sometimes I feel like I am practically a timber export specialist.  :P  ::)

So while I do not saw high volumes of wood consistently, I would not go back to a manual mill for any amount of money. but I certainly am not slamming anyone else's love of theirs. Usually I cut low volumes of wood, but there are times when I have to whip out one to several thousand BF, get it palletized and on down the road. I wouldn't want to do that with a manual mill especially with the big logs. I too cut alot of slabs (thick tabletop flitches) wood these days and don't want to damage the live edges, but it's no hassle to simply not use the hydraulics in that scenario, but handy as a backscratcher when I can use them.

I like options. My mill gives them to me. Manual or hydraulic, high or low volume, here or at a remote site. I cannot judge whether someone needs more or less mill than what they have. I finally know that what I have is what I need, or at least what I need for now, and that is good enough for me. For now. ;)
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

ohsoloco

Reid, since you cut a lot of wide stuff on the Norwood, I wanted to ask what kind of blade you use  ???  I'm currently using Red Streaks, and I always use 7/8" pitch since that's what cam is on my sharpener. 

Ironwood

ohsoloco,

I have not even picked up the mill yet. The guy who used to come here with his LM liked Munks. I have not decided what I will use. Over at Norwood, some have suggested Cooks, I will have to figure it out. The other consideration is I have access to a REALLY nice sharpening set up 2 miles down the road (buddy has top of the line WM), so I may match my blades to his so I don't have to mess with the settings on his sharpener setup, I caa basiscally run down there anytime and run my blades thru his setup for free so I want to keep him happy even if it means using a less than ideal blade for my use.


         Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

cptbob06

Rub some vegetable oil on the sap and then wash with dish soap. This works well for just about anything you can't get off. I cringe when I hear people using gas or diesel fuel to wash with as it is absorbed through the skin.

Thank You Sponsors!