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Confused Sawyer

Started by Randy, April 05, 2005, 09:57:01 PM

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Randy

I want to leard this sawing Real Bad and I guess you pro's are getting tired of my many questions!! Everything I  get into(hobbies, job, ETC) I try to become as Good as the best, maybe even better if I can. I am at the point that I don't even want to crank up my sawmill until I get a better understanding on HOW I should "Take a Tree Apart". I Don't want to saw for a customer until I know I am cutting their logs like they should be cut. I went to Lowes yesterday and spent a hour looking at the boards, checking out the end grain's. I am setting up a appointment with a BIG Lumber company(New South) to get a tour, so I can see their sawyers take tree's apart. I feel I understand a lot more today than a week ago, but still alot of question's. I understand That I can continue sawing as I have and I can get by OK, But its just not me------I want to be a Pro--not just OK!!! I know it takes time and practice and alot of good info like I am receiving here to become good(A Pro). I just wanted to tell you fellow sawyers about me and Why I ask Alot of question's. I have 32 logs on my deck that I need to saw for myself, but I feel I need to get more understanding about "Sawing" before I start on them. My problem when sawing for myself as well as customers is our wood sizes we need for our projects are different than Big sawing companies that will saw several different size boards out of a cant, because they Need everything. I don't need 2x12's or 2x'10 or 2xbigger. I mainly need 2x4's and 2x6's and some 1x's. I have several stacks of lumber but not knowing what I was doing-------probably 1/4th is bowed, warped etc, I know I will loose some but I feel if I had of cut it properly I wouldn't have so much lose. My biggest lose is in my 2x4's!. That is why I asked the lower question of how small of a tree should I cut. I have got to have some fairly straight 20ft 2x4's, I am wondering if I should cut some 10" or 12" tree's to cut these out of instead of some 20" to 36" tree's. I don't want to cut 100 2x4's and loose 25 to 30 of them to Bad bowing,(I do put alot of weight on my stacks). I know I will need some shorter 2x4's, but not that many. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU SAWYER'S IN DETAIL OF HOW YOU WOULD SAW A 20" CANT WHEN YOU ONLY NEED 2x4's and some 1x boards.  I thank You Sawyers for your advice!!!!! Randy

Fla._Deadheader


  Got a pond handy?? Take some of them bowed boards and throw 'em in the pond for a couple weeks. Take 'em out sticker-stack 'em and weight them. You'll be amazed how many you can use.  ;) ;D ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Brad_S.

Writing you a book still wouldn't teach you as much as tailing for a sawyer for a day. Ask a local sawyer in your area if you can tail for a day for free. Failing that, someone on the FF here will surely allow you to help for a day if you don't mind doing a little traveling. The experience would be well worth the price of the traveling fee.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Tom

Randy,
Don't be confused.  you are providing yourself with the same dilemma that the rest of us are confronted with when our customers say "All I want is 2x4'S.  

You can't have your cake and eat it too.    You are cutting  vertical and horizontal lines through an oval that is composed of ovals.   some of those "ovals will be situated such that the board will have grain running at 90 degrees to one or the other face.  the rest will have the grain running at some angle through 45 degrees.  If all you are going to cut is 2x4's then that is just going to be the nature of the beast.

If you want all of your boards to have centered grain, then you are going to have to cut different sized boards.

Experience will allow you to make judgements that may allow for the maximizing of one type of board or the other.  It doesn't change the medium with which you are working.  

Having a little experience doesn't change the fact that wood is going to do what its tensions allow.

If you cut a 2x8 and I cut a 2x8 just like it and then we have to create 2x4's, my 2x4's willl look just like yours. i don't care how long I've been sawing, I can't change that.  I might be able to help a little with drying techniques but that will be confusing and a crap shoot.  
\
You are confronted with what the log will allow, not what you are going to make it do.

Randy

Brad_S---------------I did tail a sawyer for 3 different days before I bought his mill and I am sawing JUST like he sawed-------Now I think maybe he needed to tail some of you pro's before he showed me how to saw. I am sure he did the best he knew how-----------I just have a bigger desire to Learn all I can-------Become a Pro Sawyer so I can show someone like my 16 year old son the Right way----so when he takes over my mill--------He will be a Pro.


Fla-DH I do have a pond and a lake, but I feel my lose at this time I can live with----------just want to saw the rest the Best way. Tell me how you would cut a 20" cant into 2x4's and 1x. Thanks Randy

Dan_Shade

I've found that this is like a lot of other things, you can think about it, or you can do it :)

I've learned a lot since I started into this habit last year with some windblown trees from Isabel.  my first logs were pine, I sawed them through and through with an alaskan, worked out pretty well.  I built a solar kiln with a friend, splitting the cost.

the chainsaw was to laborious for me, so I bought a small bandsaw, I love it, i'm way backlogged now, but I'm enjoying what I'm doing.  I've sawn up one very large oak tree (by my standards -- 36"+).  I've also sawn a bit of poplar, learning as I go.

actually, I realized a lot the other week with Tom's response to your post about centering the grain.  I've found what has helped me is to draw concentric circles and layout how I could cut there.

remember as wood warps the rings always want to straighten out, that helps quite a bit as well.

Happy sawing.  It ain't rocket science! :)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Jeff

QuoteTell me how you would cut a 20" cant into 2x4's and 1x. Thanks Randy

I've sawn over 1,000,000 logs and I dont think I would attempt to answer that question other then to say its that paticular cant that tells you how it needs to be cut. The next one will tell you something different. A good sawyer learns from experience.  You answered your own question actually wiht a statement. "I am sure he did the best he knew how"

Thats all you can do.  As I said, I have sawn over 1,000,000 logs, not feet, logs. I have been the head sawyer in a commercial mill for most of my working life. I guess I am as close to be what you could call a "pro sawyer" as there is. Guess what? I don't consider myself a pro. Never will. You can learn some from me or the other saywers, but what where you have to trully learn is from the wood.

The Log knows what it wants to be. You have to learn how to listen to it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bro. Noble

Randy,

I'm a strong believer in visiting as many mills as you can.  You will learn something useful at every mill you visit.

I would cut one or more one inch flitch off of the opening face and then 2 inch flitches (this is a good place to get your 2X6's) till the taper and bark was pretty well removed.  I would repeat that on the next three faces leaving me with a squared cant ( not necessarily completely free of barky edges).  All of the stuff taken off so far would need to be edged.  The cant that is left would be sliced at 2 inch intervals and then turned and cut at 4 inch intervals.  The resulting 2X4's would be inspected and any that had too much bark or other defects such as large knots or rot would be cut into shorter pieces.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Brad_S.

I'm sensing frustration from Randy with the answers being given as they were not telling exactly how to cut 2x4's until Bro. Noble gave the answer I was about to write out.
I would add that ties into what Tom said. In my experience, if you cut an aspen like that, the boards would be shooting out in all different directions as you cut it and you would have alot of thick and thin boards. If it were white pine, chances are good it would lay there flat and pretty. That's what we mean when we say it all depends on the log. You have to learn how to read the indiviual log and figure out how it will react and you can only do that through experience.
I'll bet it's safe to say we all ruined some good logs learning how to saw like a pro! :D

Edit: When presented with the order to produce only 2x4's by my client and working with highly tensioned logs, about the only thing I can do is cut 6" cants, let them bow up, then resaw the belly and valley out and hopefully get a good 4" when finished.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Wudman

A big mill like New South will make an interesting tour, but I don't think you'll be able to learn a great deal from them.  You'll see a computer scan and optimize each log for breakdown.  The production is pretty amazing. 

The mill floor is manned by two men and a dog.  One man to sweep up and one man to feed the dog.  The dogs job is to bite the man if he tries to touch anything........ :D :D
"You may tear down statues and burn buildings but you can't kill the spirit of patriots and when they've had enough this madness will end."
Charlie Daniels
July 4, 2020 (2 days before his death)

Kirk_Allen

Speriance ;D  Others and Your Own ;D

Get cuttin 8)

UNCLEBUCK

Randy , nobody has asked more questions than I did a few years ago here , I mean I peppered this sawmilling section with every problem that I had . I had a great time just watching a amish sawmill nearby and I watched and asked and got some junky logs to practice on and sooner or later I was lookin for better stuff . My biggest quirk to this day is I dont let nobody sit and watch me saw like a customer , I cant think straight when that happens, when I am alone I just kind of go on auto-pilot . I have only 2 years I think sawing time and I been reading all your questions trying to pick up a few pointers so keep asking and find some junky logs and try it one way and another and all of a sudden you wont even think about it and just start buzzing 2x4"s like a woodchuck . kEEP THE FAITH !  smiley_thumbsup
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

Fla._Deadheader


  All very good info. Only thing I might add is, bigger dia. logs SHOULD be more stable, and produce flatter straighter lumber. We saw mostly Old Growth, which is USUALLY very stable. Seems like when we need a specialty piece of lumber, the log will NOT behave like the rest.

  When I was sawing hardwood, I found that the smaller logs were full of Tension, no matter how straight they were when brought to the mill.  We called it "Second Growth". Probably was more like 3rd or 4th growth.

  I would try to saw most of it flat sawn. The bow on the widest face has more use than the bow on the narrow face.??????  Good Luck.  ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Randy

Thanks Guy's!! Reading all of your advice---I took the mill out today and sawed like a Pro 8), but I only sawed 100's and 100's of 1" square stickers(no I didn't center the heart in each one) :D.. I got them stacked so they will dry quick. I got to get to cutting those 32 log's in a few days and I am going to need lots of stickers. I typed a little Humor above, but really I have alot better Idea on how to saw a log now, Thanks again to you sawyers for your help. Randy

ARKANSAWYER



  This is not the best way to saw 2x4's.  This log on the other hand would make great 2x 8,10,12's with 2x4's for the opening face cuts.  But if the customer wants his logs sawn that way then warn them then saw.

  I was talking to JeffB yesterday and there are 3 ways to saw, Grade saw (includes flat and qsawn), structual lumber and how the customer wants you to saw.  If you tell them the lumber will do this or that and they still want all 2x4's from 20 inch logs then cut them.  Crooked  logs make crooked lumber.

  If you want to learn to saw then pack your truck and head due west to Arkansas and spend a week with me.  The only Pro Sawyer I know it Mary and Bibbyman does not rent her out.
ARKANSAWYER

TexasTimbers


" If you want to learn to saw then pack your truck and head due west to Arkansas and spend a week with me.  The only Pro Sawyer I know it Mary and Bibbyman does not rent her out."

Okay that's the second invite I've seen you pass out recently.

Check out the below link, I think this guy could use an invitiation if you're feeling generous (hint hint) because he wants to learn as much as possible. I heard it's been raining so much down there in Texas lately, he thinks he can sneak on up to Arkansas sometime soon and take your Sawyer 101 course.
None of my business really. Just thought I'd mention it. ;)

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=11481.0
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

FeltzE

Ok, Arky got to agree with you on your pic, however that's the way the commerical mills are producing 2x4's.... and that's why people aren't happy with the lumber when the bundles are broken open and get alittle wet... everything starts to relieve tension.

I have cut a bunch of pine just as pictured above very effectively and effeciently, but keep in mind that the lumber should either be put up wet nailed in place or properly stickered to allow for drying with out sucumbing to the stress of the growth rings.

Commercial milling practices are moving to smaller and smaller poor quality timber for grade 2x4 stock, with maximum wane. Chipper heads square the cant which may be barely big enough for 4 boards and the rip saw (gimbled head for curve sawing with multiple sawblades) breaks the (possibly curved log/cant) into multiple 2x4's in a single pass.

Eric

etat

QuoteI guess you pro's are getting tired of my many questions!!

Some of us ain't pros but what I've noticed here is the pro's who are here never seem to get tired of answering questions.  To me that's the big thing that separates this forum from other's on the web.  The people here who don't mind sharing knowledge and even learning more themselves, and having a good time in doing so. This is sure a great place ain't it? :)
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

smwwoody

First answer me a question..

What kind of logs are you sawing?

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Brad_S.

Good question smwwoody! :D :D
Hard to believe we got this far without asking that. It does make a difference, IMO.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

leweee

Randy check out the grading rules for construction lumber. This will give you a better idea of what makes the strongest lumber . minimum knot size,loose knots, spike knots.orientation of knots at edges etc. :P Hows that for fuzzifying the mudifacation ;D


ps.two of my favourite quotes from old time sawyers"Wood will never lie to you....learn to read the wood" &" Just because you can saw a log into boards,doesn't mean your making lumber".
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Randy

To answer the question-------I am Sawing Pine.
Quote from: leweee on April 06, 2005, 08:47:50 PM
Just because you can saw a log into boards,doesn't mean your making lumber.
That is how I felt------I was sawing boards, but not making the BEST Lumber. I charged a customer almost $900 for sawing some lumber and ALOT of it was bowing and warping BAD off the mill, But as Tom, Arky and others said on here---If your customer ask for Just 2x4's and he has logs squaring 20 and 24"-you are going to have alot of unstable 2x4's---------Made me feel better to hear that from them.  I thought I was cutting them wrong----well I really was, but thats what the Customer wanted, But I didn't know enough about it to tell him what was probably going to happen, but I am sure he would have still wanted them 2x4's. Thanks Randy

asy

Quote from: cktate on April 06, 2005, 08:13:46 PM
QuoteI guess you pro's are getting tired of my many questions!!

Some of us ain't pros but what I've noticed here is the pro's who are here never seem to get tired of answering questions.  To me that's the big thing that separates this forum from other's on the web.  The people here who don't mind sharing knowledge and even learning more themselves, and having a good time in doing so. This is sure a great place ain't it? :)

Ya know, it doesn't matter how much you know, you still don't know near enough.

That's what I find, anyway.

asy :D
Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake.
There cannot be a crisis next week. ~My schedule is already full..

FeltzE

The more I know... the more I know how little I really know...   :-\


If you aren't going to cut with the growth rings centered on the lumber then stickering and stacking with the lumber kept straight through the drying process is very important.   If you doubt it pull some commercial lumber and throw it out in the rain for a couple days and see what happens.

As a contractor showed me years ago build with the crown up....

Proper positioning of your log for best results is important, cutting grade hardwoods you will be rotating the cant more looking to keep the knots oriented to the corners of the cant keeping the maximum clear space on your lumber. Making structural grade construction lumber minimize the knot size by keeping the knots oriented straight through the middle of the wide face of your lumber and minimizing the spike knots and large sweeping knots. Knots will normally then be oriented when possible straight out the middle of the face of the cant.

Eric



smwwoody

What kinf of pine is it?
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

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