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Topping trees..!

Started by Atlasrising, April 02, 2005, 01:25:14 AM

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Atlasrising

I have tall arbrovitae trees right near my house....I want to cut the top few feet to shorten them.  Is it safe to cut the tree this way? What could i put over the cut to protect them.?   Thanks.

ac

Fraxinus

I have a brochure at work put out by the ISA (International Society of Arboriculture, of which I am a member) which explains how topping is possibly the worst thing you can do to trees.  If I was at work, I would post a link to the information that is on this brochure.  Topping is the dumbest thing that people do to trees.  Well, maybe not the dumbest, but it certainly ranks right up there.
Another dumb thing people do is think they have to put something on a tree wound to help it "heal".   Don't, DON't,DON'T do any such thing.  Trees do NOT "heal", they compartmentalize and they "seal".  Putting some kind of a dressing or covering on a tree's wound will not help, it will hurt the tree.  This is not just me speaking.  This comes from Dr. Alex Shigo who is possibly the foremost authority in the world on trees.
If you can wait until Monday, I will provide you a link to the anti-tree-topping info so that you're not just taking my word for it.  As a utility arborist/forester, one of the biggest problems we have is dealing with people who can't be made to understand what a bad thing it is for the tree to mangle and deform it like that.  I don't use the word "butcher" because a butcher is a skilled craftsman who does skilled work.
Suggest you Google Alex Shigo and see what he has to say about this and a lot of things.  He's a very prolific writer and very passionate about the subject of trees.
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

etat

Fraxinus I gotta jump in here just a minute.  I disagree with a 'blanket' statement that topping a tree is the worse thing that you can do to it.  Seems to me that this statement does not take into account enough variables. 


Fruit trees such as apple and peach absolutely need to be topped and trimmed to maintain the integrity of the tree.  The variables for different situations should ALWAYS be taken into acount.  Which is worse, cutting or trimming limbs or topping a tree, or completely removing it.  Thinking LOTS of homeowners would have something to say about trying to save their trees. Or their house tops, or their selves or children who might have to walk  under dead limbs.


It's been a long time but I've topped many many trees around residential houses.  Lots of these there was eventually a choice, top the tree or remove dead limbs, or take a chance of putting the house, or someone, in danger. Or completely cut it down.   Power company guys top or trim trees all the time around here.  The choice, top or trim the tree, or completely cut it down

This said, to do a good job and to do the least amount of damage to the tree there ARE certain methods including exactly where and how to cut that common sense should dictate.

Maybe it helped, maybe it didn't but on 'bigger' limbs on trees I'd cut I'd usually coat with roofing tar to help keep insects out.
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Jeff

Arborvitae are planted here in rows and "topped" all the time for hedges. Its a very common practice for a very tall hedge.  Arborvitae is listed in many places as suitable for "formal" hedges. That is, it can be regularly sheered and shaped.

I have to think that some "guru" making a blanket statement about topping trees is dumb. Has he ever been to an apple orchard? I'm certainly not an arborist and would probably agree that topping any old tree is probably not the healthiest thing for a tree, but my passion for trees does not include crying if I see one that has been manipulated to serve man, be it only for a decorative purpose.

What I see that is dumb, is a utility coming through and wacking the whole center out of a tree for their lines to go through instead of removal, or taking the whole top half off of a pine or spruce for the same reason instead of total removal.  Why did they not take the whole tree down and leave that eye sore you might ask? "Its not our job, we just clear the lines." In the mean time uglying up the landscape. That is dumb.  

Topping a row of closely growing Arborvitae will cause the tops to bunch out and together creating a visually appealing hedge.  Will it shorten the live of the tree? Maybe.  Will the act pose a health risk to the trees? It could. Would I do it? Certainly, if thats what I wanted to do.  Pleasing one's self by using a tree be it for lumber or shade or adjusting the landscape is not "Dumb".
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

etat

Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Kevin

There are many opinions on this topic .
The general rule is it isn't healthy for the tree to top it.
There's a difference between line clearance and arboriculture.

Punish Your Trees If They Dare Grow Tall
Lewiston Tribune 3/27/90


As a resident of Lewiston-Clarkston — the tree-butchering capital of America — I have come to realize that some trees are too tall.
They deserve to be punished for that. If a tree won't keep its place you have to cut it down to size.
Or so I gather after 25 years in this town. For some odd reason, the people of this community prune their trees more severely than people do in other communities. People here plant a tree, water it, fertilize it — and if it dares to grow, they'll cut the top off it.
But why? Where did this town get its abnormal fear of tall trees?
That question occurred to me again the other day in a Clarkston Heights yard, My host pointed out a blue spruce with its pointy top whacked off and complained about the tree's stubborn tendency to grow, "I have to keep cutting it back," he complained.
"Why?" I asked?
"It keeps getting too tall," he said.
"Too tall for what?" I asked, sincerely puzzled. There was nothing above the top of that tree but sky — no roofline was being crowded, no power line. The tree could grow five miles and encounter nothing.
"It's just getting too tall," he said, "I have to keep cutting it back so it doesn't get out of hand.
"What does "out of hand" mean? I don't know but I have heard that expression more than once around here: "I gotta prune that tree before it gets outta hand."
I could understand that if the tree is over the hill, has terminal crotch rot and is about to fall on the drive way where you park your cherished 1988 Yugo.
I could understand pruning off a limb if it is growing through the rumpus room.
And I could certainly understand thinning some of the limbs out of a tree. We all need our hair trimmed, But that doesn't mean we need our head cut off.
Nonetheless, the people of this town will chop the top off a tree even if it is out in the middle of an acreage a quarter mile from the nearest building, threatening nothing but low flying jet planes. I think people here believe any tree that gets too tall will turn mean and roam the neighborhood killing dogs getting even for past insults.
Sometimes I fear the people around here have small horizons. They don't know how high the sky is. They think a tree that gets too tall will poke a hole in the sky and let in all that cold air from outer space. Some fool in Lewiston Orchards let a poplar get out of hand year before last and half the pipes in the valley were frozen.
Actually, poplars and other fast growing trees may have something to do with it,.A lot of the people who settle here — myself included — are from families that moved here from the Midwest. Our families came out of that region in the era before the plant magicians had developed so many trees that would tolerate frigid temperatures and dust bowls and Republicanism and other extremes of nature common to that part of the country.
That explains why there are still older people around to this day who regard rhubarb and gooseberries as fruit. And that explains why there are still people around who will actually cat green tomato relish. They've never heard of ripe tomatoes.
The choice of cheap shade trees was limited — just a few large, rambling, fast-growing trees like poplars and maples and black locusts. You could plant them next to the house in April and by August They would have grown 150 feet and fallen through the roof of the house during one of the weekly tornadoes. Or they would have got hit by the daily lightning storm.
When you grow up in a land like that, you learn real fast not to let your trees get out of hand. That's how so many of us here came to fear tall tree.
Other towns thin their trees. This is a basic redneck town. Most of the men and some of the women have crew cuts, We like our trees the same way.
And if the rest of you don't agree, write a letter to the editor, however, if it's loo long, we'll cut it. We don't want people like you getting out of hand.

Jeff

On the blanket statement of not covering tree wounds.  In areas at risk to oak wilt we have been taught it is imperative to coat all wounds with paint. If not the sap can attract the beetle that spreads the infection from miles around and then become infected. Is that dumb?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Kevin

It's too broad a topic with  specifics and variables, much like felling a tree where  one answer can't be the right answer for all cases.
If I have a tree that's rubbing the cable it comes down and if the branches are rubbing then just a few branches get  removed, I would never top a tree because it would form multiple leaders and become a bigger mess with time.
The reason topping is done on lines is largely due to expense .

chet

Atlasrising,
If you do top your arbrovitae, try to do it early in the season. Done in the heat of the summer you may subject them to sunscald.
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

chet

Quote from: Kevin on April 02, 2005, 09:30:12 AM
The reason topping is done on lines is largely due to expense .

And sometimes by the owner of the tree specifically requesting it!   ::)
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

pigman

I topped this yard tree two years ago. Wife says I topped it too low . What do you topping experts think.
:P
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Rockn H

Pigman that looks just right to me. ;D   Ever think about gauging the top out and throwing some four o'clocks in there?  I like a stump with flowering moss.
Around here we top sweetgum to make a better shade.  Have to get the sprig the following year, but it really gives it a nice full shape.

Fraxinus

Well, it seems like some of you have had a good time whipping up on what I said earlier.  I stand by it.  I have since found the link to the information from the ISA.  Here it is.  Maybe the ISA doesn't know what it's talking about?
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/topping.asp
Concerning fruit trees:  I myself have an apple orchard and, over the years, have tried to prune and train them to take a form that is both productive and appealing to the eye.  This often involves removing the dominant leader.  That is a long way and a lot different from topping a shade or ornamental tree.
Concerning the topping of trees by utilities:  Like I said, I am a utility arborist/forester.  Our tree contractors are specifically instructed NOT to top trees or take the middle out of them for wires to pass through as somebody mentioned.  There are times when that is all you can get from an uncooperative property owner.  And here in NH, many towns have designated some of their roads as "scenic" in a misguided attempt to "preserve something".  It just about takes an act of Congress to be able to take down trees which are damaged, dying or hazardous.  Some people's idea of a scenic road means one where the trees grow right up to the edge of the traveled way.  That is not good for the road and it's not good for the trees and it sure doesn't make it more "scenic" to have plow-damaged and sickly trees right in the edge of the road.
And some contractors (I won't mention any names, but one whose name begins with A comes to mind) are not much concerned with sound arboricultural practices or ANSI standards.  They are concerned only with dollars and getting the job done as quickly and cheaply as possible so that they can maximize their profit and DanG the results.  If they came and mutilated trees on my property by topping, you're DanG well sure that they would be coming back to take the thing down.  Again, I will not insult butchers by calling what tree mutilators do "butchering". 
And, Jeff, I don't believe you are doing your oak trees any good whatsoever when you "cover all wounds".  Again, I suggest you check into Dr. Alex Shigo.  This comes directly from him.  I have heard it from his mouth on more than one occasion, most recently this past Tuesday.
And there are proper ways to sheer, shape and train trees, as in a hedge.    You may be familiar with a procedure called "pollarding".  These things are done by skilled technicians and are a far cry from somebody discovering that his tree has grown too tall and now needs to be "topped".  That article posted by kevin could have been written by Dr. Shigo.  It's right on the money.
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

etat



Again, let me explain, OnE MORE TIME.  Ya got a 90 foot pin oak tree growed up beside a house   Half of it is overhanging YOUR house.  One day a limb drops off and goes through YOUR roof.  By now, You SHOULD know that them pin oak trees drop limbs pretty regular.  You don't want to lose the tree cause your Great Great Grandpappy planted it and you like the shade.  Buy, you got to protect your house.

SO, you go up and cut the half off of the top that's overhanging your house.  Uh,oh, the tree NOW looks like !@#$%^&*.  Completely out of balance.  IF YOU"RE SMART, you'll balance the tree BY TOPPING IT.  It'll look prettty bad for maybe a year or so.  But by then that big ole pin oak tree that your grandfather planted, IF you didn't kill it which is maybe an option that can't be helped. Will have bushed out with a round top and a really pretty shade tree.  And it should last that was for another 12 to 15 years or so until you have to have that top trimmed out again. 

NOW, I don't know about that wilt disease, but I just betcha that if you don't paint the ends where ya trimmed it off it's gonna get slam full of them black wood eating ants what's gonna kill it graveyard dead in the next two years!

FINALLy, Atlasrising came here with a legitimate question.  Without even asking him about his variables or trying to even understand his situation, or his trees, Before doing this you started throwing the word DUMB around.  I'll BET that even YOU DR.  who's supposed to know so much wouldn't have made that mistake without finding out the situation, and the variables.  I'll BET he wouldn't tell you, in a specific application, NOT to treat the end's of a certain tree if he knew it was about to become under attack.   IF he did do so, of IF he doesn't take everything into acount, then It's HIM who is as DUMB as someone who would say NEVER to top a tree!  I don't care how much they THINK  they know!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read your article again.  NOWHERE does it say to NEVER top a tree!!!!!!!!  It tells you the risks but even then a decision needs to and has to be made on a individual basis!
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Gilman

Lewiston-Clarkston!

Mmmmm, Lewiston used to have a little hole in the wall that made a hamburger that hung over the edges of a full sized dinner plate.  2#'s of meat if I recall correctly.  I wonder if that diner is still there?
WM LT70, WM 40 Super, WM  '89 40HD
Cat throwing champion 1996, 1997, 1999. (retired)

etat

Thaks Gilman, I needed that! :)
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

WH_Conley

Pigman, looks about the right height to me.

Few years ago a tree company, whose name began with an "A" came through and widened the electric right of way. Cut about 20 northern red oak and cherry trees. No problem here. The problem was I was not home and the just cut the back out of em and left them holding the direction they wanted em to fall, busted everyone.

P.S. All the trees went from 14 to 24 inches at breast height.

Anybody want to guess who was pithed about this?
Bill

etat

Let me see if I can calm down a bit more. :)

I, like many or maybe about everybody here don't like, an have a problem with someone coming in a butchering trees.  Just as soon see the jakelegs who do it, hung from em.  As i said, even though it's been years I've cut back lots and lots of trees from around houses.  I can't ever remember a one that I just cut back to the trunk and left something big and ugly standing there.  I always 'planned' what I was going to do, each and every cut.  I always tried to maintain the shape of the tree as much as possible.  I always made at least two cuts on each limb I was cutting, especially the bigger ones.  I'd work my way out on the limb past where I wanted it cut and undercut it as much as possible before cutting the limb to prevent it splitting back plumb to the trunk.  Once the main weight was off I''d then make a final neat cut on the limb.

If a limb or part of the trunk was straight up I'd always try to leave it with somewhat of a angle cut so it'd help shed water. 

I always tried to cut bigger limbs just past a off shoot somewhere that would take over after the bigger part was removed. 

As I said, I always tried to maintain the shape of the tree as much as possible.  If for some reason this wasn't a option, I'd recommend taking the tree all the way down. 

As I remember I had a very high success rate of saving trees and getting big limbs out from over houses.  This type of work was most always done in the spring of the year.  If done in the summertime success rates drop drastically. 

You don't necessarily have to 'butcher' a tree to shape it up, or top it as we'd say.

Any limb bigger than three inches I always coated after topping.  Necessary or not I know for a fact that it never hurt anything.  And putting some black on the ends of the limbs always made the tree look less naked, at least to me.

Most of the trees I was involved with was post oak, water oak, red oak and pecan.  If you're sitting out on a long pecan limb and cut it you'd better hang on, you're in for a ride.

I've spent as much as a week up in a single tree cutting and having someone rope the limbs down, in sections because it was squeezed so tight in between two houses. 

I'm by NO means an expert.  Never had any training other than what I was showed.  But as I said, we had a very high success rate cutting back some very very big and dangerous trees.  That's why I have so BIG a problem with someone who says it CAN"T and SHOULDN"T be done.
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

chet

I think there may be some confusion here between topping and crown reduction.   ;)   Two very different and distinct practices.   :)
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Fraxinus

Quote from: cktate on April 02, 2005, 01:42:59 PM
Let me see if I can calm down a bit more.
I'm glad you're calming down.  You've no doubt noticed that in my original answer to Atlasrising, at no time did I call him (her?) dumb.  I'm trying to stop something dumb from being done.   Indeed, you and I have the same love of trees and don't like to see them mangled and mutilated (again, I do not use the word "butchered" in this way as it insults butchers  ;))
People have a right to do with their own trees, and other property, what they want and I am a firm believer that trees are put here for man and not the other way around.  With that in mind, we should be good stewards of the trees that are put into our care. 
Getting an education should not be regarded as something to be looked down upon.  I'm a firm believer that the best way to learn something is with hands on, like you have, and from other people with more knowledge and experience.  And when you have a chance to learn from somebody of the acknowledged stature of Dr. Alex Shigo, I don't believe it's very profitable to just sniff and dismiss him as a "guru".  Like I said earlier, he is very passionate about trees and most certainly would toss around strong words like "dumb" and even stronger. :o  He certainly has his detractors and probably for the reason that he is not afraid to speak his mind and defend his position.  Maybe I'm too much like him as I certainly have stirred things up with my response to Atlasrising, eh? :D
I would encourage you all to do a Google search on Alex Shigo if you haven't already.  You will definitely find out that this "guru" knows of what he speaks.
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

Ianab

While most agree that taking the tops out of trees doesn't do them any good, if the option is that or removal, 9 out of 10 trees would opt to have their tops trimmed  :D

Atlas says the trees are close to his house, so doing nothing isn't really an option. They will just get bigger, shade his house, make him nervous in storms etc. They will soon have to be removed completely. A little trimming and shaping every few years will enable him to keep the trees at an acceptable size for many years to come. He is thinking about taking a few feet off the top so it wont be huge cuts. I agree it will wound the tree, and in 20 or 30 years it may have to be taken out, but if the other option is a "Pigman special trim", then prune them.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

Got to fess up and tell ya's what the Swamp Donkey done and weren't too proud of it. But, I swears I was just following the lead of my co-workers and the supervisor that told us what he wanted done with them Dang seed orchard larch.  ::)

ermmm, well. It was this way. We was told to 'top the trees at 4 feet' Now what does this mean to you's fine folks? Well to us young college summer students it meant to whack off the tops at four feet. ermmm  :-\ We all agreed that topping at four feet meant cuttin the tops off in some fashion and at four feet above the ground. Right? Well....turns out what he meant was to butt prune the trees up to four feet. And after we had topped about 6 seed orchard trees  ::) Mr supervisor comes along and all %*!! breaks loose. Gulp, but boss you said top at 4 feet and we all collaborated and decided that topping meant well........topping.  :o

Well needless to say the topping ended and we got sent on fertilizer duty, followed by tree planting among rock piles and raspberry caines and cone pickin for the remainder of the summer.  I didn't bother listing the boss in references on my resume. ;D

play safe  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

pigman

Ianab,
That is what I did with the tree in my yard. Back in the 80's, some limbs started dying on the side next to the house. I removed any limbs that didn't look healthy and might fall on the house. I got another 20 years of good shade on the southwest side of the house. 8) In 03 the whole tree started dying and had to be removed. :(
From what I have read, on large trees some trimming can be done, but is seldom wise to just " top" the tree.
smiley_peace
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Fraxinus

I'll buy that, Pigman 8) 8)
And, Swamp Donkey, here's a quote from Voltaire that Dr. Shigo used in one of his books that I think would well apply to your case:

IF PEOPLE DEFINED THEIR TERMS, ARGUMENTS WOULD BE
LESS THAN THREE MINUTES. Voltaire

:) :)
Grandchildren, Bluegrass music, old tractors, trees and sawmills.  It don't get no better'n that!

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