Cedar sawing for Dummies (me)

Daren · March 25, 2005, 08:22:07 AM

I haven't sawed much E. red cedar,( I have sawed some for other people, but they take it right off the mill and I never see it again) but I got a few logs last weekend and several more are coming soon that I am keeping the lumber to sell. When I was sawing I noticed how dry the dust was, I hit a board with the moisture meter and it was around 15%. I never got a look at the trees, just the logs. Was that standing dead? It's all endcoated and I just stacked it (no stickers). Is that O.K.?

TexasTimbers · March 25, 2005, 09:00:24 AM

Daren,
I'm not a sawyer, don't even have my mill set up yet, but I have quite a bit of experience with red cedar (as you probably know it's actually a juniper not a cedar) as a woodworker and I have stored several hundred board feet of it at a time. Still have some stored in my old shop thats been there for nearly 12 years. I don't know what the pros will say but I always stickered it and weighed it down. ERC likes to m - o - v - e!
Also, a llow it to bathe in the sunlight and it will turn the wood from it's stunning pinks and reds to a lame brown in no time.
It air dries very quickly, so the 15% is probably not indicative that it was standing dead.
If you are going to build furniture out of it as I have, especially higher end and not the rustic stuff you mostly see people making with it, you must choose your joints carefully, and use alot of floating panel designs etc. The wood will continue to check and split for a long time.
It cuts/planes/routs easily and can be fun to work with. Just know that this wood likes to m - o - v - e . . . . and plan accordingly.
Also, I personally like to leave more sap in it than other woodworkers as I like the contrast, depending on what I'm making. I made a bedroom suite for my daughter that I could keep myself busy repeating for every one of her friends and friends moms if I wanted. People really like this wood if you build it like your using cherry and skip the rustic approach - that stuff is a dime a dozen though maybe some woodworkers may correct me and say thaey still sell it like it was selling in the mid - late 90s though I can't imagine that.
The sawyer down the street builds cabins and houses out of the stuff and that's all he does. Loves to cut the stuff.
I spent a few days in east Texas early this week with a forum member who hates to cut the stuff. some like it some dont. I think I'll fall into the category of the latter and not the former.
Best of luck. KJ.

Cedarman · March 25, 2005, 09:28:13 AM

Texas cedar must be different from cedar in the midwest as our cedar does not move at all. 9 out of 10 times we take a 7x7 and quarter it and it does not bow, just lays there. I would sticker the cedar and keep it in a shed. Sun will quickly change the colors. Also our cedar rarely splits. We never coat the ends. Put in a heated woodshop with a regular fan, and the MC will drop to 8 to 10 per cent rather quickly. Now this is for 1" or less thickness. 2x material will take 4 to 5 times as long to dry.
15 per cent is ok dead stacked, but will not dry much, be sure it is in a shed as flat stacked in the rain will be very bad.
Most standing cedar logs have heartwood at 30 per cent give or take. Sap wood is off the meter.
Your logs have been cut for a year or so or were standing dead. Has the back fallen off yet?
To me, cedar is the most beautiful wood there is.
No two boards are alike and they have character, can't say that about FAS oak.

Daren · March 25, 2005, 10:23:05 AM

Thanks guys, I was hoping to hear from you Cedarman. The trees came to the mill the same day they were cut, and I sawed them the next, so they must have been standing dead (the bark was on, but not very well). Cedar is about as ugly on the outside as it is pretty inside. All of my wood is stored inside. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to ruin it dead stacked. The cedar I am getting next I know is alive 'cause I bought the standing trees off a land owner the other day and I had a look at them, I will sticker it for awhile.

MemphisLogger · March 25, 2005, 10:26:21 AM

I'm with Cedarman on the (non)movement. If I saw it on the Mizer's 4/4 scale, I end up with a full 1" after dressing. It dries so flat that I can cut accurate mortise and tenons with out jointing or planing--highend joinery with a Woodmizer finish.

TexasTimbers · March 25, 2005, 11:06:26 AM

Hmmm, all I can say is when I started woodworking in '91 I started with cedar, and before I learned to allow for movement such as shrinkage (as with any wood) the movement of the cedar would wreak havoc on my pieces.
I would take it straight from the mill and air dry it for a few weeks and build with it. I never owned a meter and still don't, so as with many self-taught operations it's possible I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. ;D

pigman · March 25, 2005, 12:22:18 PM

kevjay,
I'm just a self taught sawyer and wood worker too, but I don't let that stop me from woodworking and posting on this fourm. ;) I like sawing cedar, it is very light and easy for an old man to lift. 8) The only thing I don't like about ER cedar is all the ingrown bark, hard to know where to edge. :(
Like the others have already said, our cedar is very stable and drys very fast.
Bob

footer · March 25, 2005, 08:13:10 PM

Cedarman,
Do you think it would work for shingles, or do you think it would be to notty? We were thinking about trying it on rustic post and beam barns.

woodbeard · March 26, 2005, 07:47:32 AM

Kevjay, the cedar you are referring to, is it pink-red and fairly soft, or more brown, and fairly hard? The place I build chairs for gets a lot of "juniper" from Texas, up to 12"dia. and the stuff is much different from our Tennessee cedar.

Tome · March 27, 2005, 09:25:13 PM

I have a cedar log home and I have built all my cabinets out of cedar and they have done very well, no splits. Everyone likes the smell when they enter my house although we don't smell it any more. I have build several cedar chests and the wood has worked wonderful.

Cedarman · March 28, 2005, 09:56:44 PM

Cedar should work for shingles. I would be looking for wood from trees with small knots rather than from those big old wooly monsters. A fellow from Illinois has come over the last few years and buys 6x6 to take back and cut in short lengths to run through a shingle machine at an old timers show.
I took a bunch of 1/2 inch boards and made shingles for a small gazebo type building. Other than a few blowing off cause I didn't nail them well enough they have held up well for 7 or 8 years. Since the wood doesn't warp or cup, it should be ok.

Most shakes and shingles are made of western red cedar from Canada that are found in the big box stores.

kevjay, you've got me curious about your Texas cedar. You said it moved a lot. Is there a chance you could check that out and see if there is a difference between what grows in your area and the rest of the country.
The cedar that I saw in fence boards in Ok didn't move. We do see a log every now and then where the wood goes squirly when we saw it.

TexasTimbers · March 28, 2005, 10:45:44 PM

I will take some pictures (no promises when - I have a full plate but the best intentions;) and let you look at why I said cedar moves.
I've made some smallish chests that didn't move much but the big stuff, one top in particular on the blanket chest that goes with my daughters' bed that I built for her nearly self-destructed.
The posts bent quite a bit over the years and the rails too.
I'm sure my knowledge (lack of) of wood moverment and joinery selection was to blame at least in part.
Not wanting to sound like one who places blame at others' feet, I think the sawyer who cut it, a sawmill down the street who cuts nothing but cedar, could also share some blame if it matters how cedar is cut. He just throws it on the saw and cuts from top to bottom without concern of boxing hearts and all that sawyer stuff I need to learn soon as well (just sent my cashiers check to Norwood today for my LM2000 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)!. )
This never seemed untoward to me before I began perusing this site, but in hindsight I've never seen him turn a log after his first cut.... starts at the top - cuts till there's just a slab layin there. Is that Okay?
You asked what kind of cedar I refer to ... at least to me, it looks just like juniperus virginiana silicicola in my Trees of Texas (Carmine Stahl) ID book. The book calls it "Southern Red Cedar". It goes on to say that "...[it] differs from eastern red cedar in developing a more irregular form, drooping branches, and smaller fruits....the valuable wood from this tree, like that of eastern red cedar, serves for paneling, woodenware, posts, and insect-repellent 'cedar' chests." Further it says that it grows slow, enjoys a long life, and "...is always worthy of a place in the landscape...." Ha! Go tell it to the Oklahoma State Legislature!!!
Even if it is different in some respects they are both Junipers and in the Cypress family, so in my very green opinion I would say that SRC shouldn't move much more than ERC, if at all, but I still admit I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to wood movement (and most everything else wood-related) I need to spend more time as I can in Understanding Wood by Hoadley! ;)
Personally, I love the wood, I just don't think I'm going to like cutting it as it's got so many large knots prutruding from the trunk, but hopefully we shall soon see 8)
KJ

pigman · March 28, 2005, 11:22:08 PM

kevjay,
Most of the ER cedar I saw is so small I just square it up and saw top to bottom. On the few larger logs I saw, I will sometimes saw around and around like I do on grade sawing hardwoods. Our cedar is so stable and doesn't really show the growth rings like other trees. But cedarman saws more in one day than I do in year, he has forgotten more than I will ever know about it. ;D

Cedarman · March 29, 2005, 12:15:33 PM

We make a lot of 7x7 out of 10 inch logs, then quarter them for mailbox posts. 3/4 of the time we get no movement. Some times you can see the post bow a little, then once in a while pretty good bow. We also make a lot of 3 1/2 by 7 out of 8 inch logs. Once in a while when we slice down the middle they go kerpow and bust the last 3 inches. We can see a 1 inch bow in these. Some trees just go squirrelly.
Pigman, I can't remember what I forgot and there's some stuff I really need to know. Now where did I leave my tools? Thanks for the compliment

kevjay, looking forward to what you find out. We saw a cant and then usually slice straight through when making lumber. We will box the heart if it is bad and use it as a bolster.