iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

How many boardfeet in a cord

Started by Robert R, March 17, 2005, 05:38:49 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Robert R

I know it is probably highly variable but just a rough guesstimate.  I am trying to decide if I am better off selling some logs I have that are pallet grade to the mill for 18 cents a foot or taking the time and effort to cut it up and split it to sell by the cord.  Thanks.
chaplain robert
little farm/BIG GOD

Jeff

You can figure an average of about 500 bf, depending on the cuts and log size. 500 is a good average though.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Robert R

Thank you.  That is exactly what I needed to know.  That makes firewood and pallet logs just about a dead heat price wise.  Makes that 45 minute trip to mill sound better than all that splitting and delivering and stacking if diesel ever comes back down to a reasonable price again.
chaplain robert
little farm/BIG GOD

bull

you got that right.  My rule of thumb is " if its straight and has over a 6 inch tip its a log.  Tops are where you get the firewood...  also keeps the trash down in the woods.....  limbs down to 1 1/2 inch are for firewood,and the rest is brush AKA wildlife food and bug fodder....... ::)

Minnesota_boy

I find this an interesting question because of a pair of obs i just finished.  Both customers had purchased a 7 cord load of logs, one jack pine, one white spruce.  One would think that since they had purchased the logs, the loads would be of roughly equal size, 7 cords.  The jack pine was average size for this area, few logs over 16" on the top, while the spruce was much bigger, given that they were considered overrsize for the mill which has a limitation on its peeler of 18".  The jack pine sawed out 3600 bd-ft, about right for the load size.  The spruce scaled at nearly 7000 bd-ft when sawed.  Both customers were pleased with the results and paid for the ammount scaled.  Why such a difference?  The size of the logs!  Each log has 4 slabs to be removed which go ito a waste pile, but there were 4 times as many logs in the jack pine pile as the spruce, so the waste pile was 4 times as big.  I used the international quarter inch scale on one of the spruce logs to compare that to what I recovered in lumber.  As I recall, the log scale showed 185 bd-ft in the log and the lumber removed was 235 bd-ft.  Nice overage on that job. :o
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Corley5

Larger logs always saw more over scale than smaller logs
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

beenthere

MN_boy
You are hitting on one reason the Doyle scale is used to buy logs.  Not a good estimator of the actual footage one can get however, just more work to get the actual.

Also, draw some circles, large and small, and then put in some rectangles within the circles, and you will see where the waste builds up and comes from in those small ones.
Opening a large log to a 6" face will require less depth of slab (waste) than opening a small log to the same 6" face. To get a 6" face on a small log of say 8" diam will mean the cut is pretty close to the center of the log. 

What logs saw out in board feet has a lot to do with the size of boards one is sawing. If the smallest 'board' is a 2x6, then the small logs don't give a very high yield. If the smallest board is a 1x3, then the small logs will come up in 'yield'. There are many variables that limit anything other than a ballpark figure or 'rule-of-thumb' like Jeff gave.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Minnesota_boy

Corley,
I've found that just the opposite is true, depending on what is on the cut list.  Lots of times I saw much more above the log scale on a small log than on a large one.  It depends on where the log size comes in relative to the break in the log scale.  If the log is scaled at 30 bf and is real close to the next larger size, I might get 50 bf out as lumber.

Beenthere,
When I made the comparison to see what sawed out in relation to the log scale, I chose the scale that indicated the most board foot.  Scribner and international quarter inch matched and Doyle showed less.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Corley5

Grandpa always talked about big logs sawing more over scale than small logs and I've found the same to be true.  I think it depends on what width face you saw to and how much is run through the edger.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

beenthere

MN_boy

Sorry, I didn't read your first post very well.
      You said ""Why such a difference?  The size of the logs!  ""

and I just read the question ("Why such a difference?")  and didn't notice you gave the answer following the ?.  So I was a bit puzzled that you, of considerable experience, were asking that question.

(duh) Now I think I have it figured out a bit better. ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

I concur with Jeff, that's the figure we've used for cord = board feet, locally.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Gary_C

I agree, 500 bd ft per cord is the number used most of the time. Actually it depends on so many variables that it will vary widely from that number.

It depends on log scale you used, diameter of the logs, species or amount of taper in the logs, band saw or circle saw, 4/4, 5/4, 2x4,or other, amount of wane allowed, and how tired are you and your offbearer.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ed_K

 Anything less than .14 bf go in my cordwood pile  :-\. Like Bull says if its straight and larger than 6" tip, its a sawlog.
Ed K

bull

 :-X  the question regarding over run is simple guys " saw curf " 1/8 band saw  vs 1/4 + wobble etc. Circle saw....  Oh and some guys maybe better sawyers than othere :D what a concept .    we need an international 1/8 scale.........maybe

Ed_K

 1/4 if I'm buyin, 1/8 if I'm not  ;).
Ed K

Jeff

The question was how many board feet average in a cord.  Over run and log rules have nothing to do with the original question and simply dont apply to the answer. You dont measure a cord of wood with doyle or international or scribner.  If you measure the cords with a log scale first, you are not changing the amount of lumber you will get, you are altering the amount of wood in a cord.

A cord of wood is 128 cubic feet.

You WILL  get more yield out of a cord, if you are sawing larger logs.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

The volume of a cord may be 128 cu ft, but the volume of wood and bark will be dependent on log size, species and condition.

For logs small than 6" (measured in the middle of the stick) smooth hardwoods will yield 82 cu ft, and smooth softwoods will yield 88.

Bump that up to 6-12" diameter and the hardwoods are 88 and the softwoods are 93.

For diameters over 12", hardwoods are 95 and softwoods are 98.

Crooked logs will lose about 8-10 cu ft/cd.

There already is an International 1/8 scale. 

If you're cutting 2" dimension stock on a 1 1/2" set, then you'll be guaranteed a 25% overrun. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bull

The original question was should he sell his wood as pallet or spend the time cutting and splitting fire wood... a cord is a cord is a cord 4x4x8 or 128 cubic feet
around here we don't buy logs by the cord only scale...... and as usual some of us get a little off subject.... We did not as of yet go off on the food subject although we might because im trying to keep smilin  :D and i think i will grab a sandwich.... Sorry if there was a problem, will try in the future not to step over the line... HOPE  EVERYONE IS HAVING A FABULOUS DAY.  KEEP SMILIN ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jeff

Well apparently somebody took that wrong and it wasnt me.  I have never ever insinuated on this board or forum that one should not stray from the original topic. I was only making a point about the original question. Give me a break.

Selling or splitting was the statement not the question. Notice the lack of question marks. The question was posed in the topic title.

How many boardfeet in a cord
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

chet

Quote from: bull on March 19, 2005, 05:57:52 PM........ and as usual some of us get a little off subject.... We did not as of yet go off on the food subject

Not me......I'm not one to git a thread side tracked ta food......nope, no way.  :)  But, seein' as how ya brought up da food thing........I'm havin' home made tater sausage for supper. Now dats good eatin'.  ;)
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

bull

To: Jeff
From: Bull
Date: 3/19/05
subject: giving you a break...

Sorry if I got off on the wrong side of the horse.  Winter blahs must have got to me,
still on the crutches not able to do much on such a beautifl day that we were having.
when I look out my front window I look right at my mill which hasn't done a thing since September when I broke my ankle and get ticked that i can't be out having fun and sometimes I take things wrong,sorry ! One well deserved break given !!!

Jeff

Yer not the only one in that boat. I have had two surgeries since October, the latest in February. Have slept mostly in a chair for the last 4 months. Outside is somewhere that someone that might slip and throw an arm out to keep balance and tear up all the internal repairs can't go when there is nothing but ice and snow and cold.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

SwampDonkey

 Sorry :D :D :D But, I was always a bugs bunny fan and I am picturing the scene where sylvestor and the bull dog butch are laid up in bed with broken limbs and everytime on of them gives a yelp, old granny comes along with the elixor to fix things up. :D :D :D

SwampDonkey ducks under the radar. ;D




Get well soon guys. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Sawyerfortyish

Alright I'm going to bring it back around to the origanal topic. How many bd ft in a cord ? I'm asking because i just had a forester show me a job scaled Doyle scale. Most of it a good 2/3 is black birch 209 trees out of 320.The rest is oak- popular and hard and soft maple. The lot was logged about 5 yrs ago so all the good stuff is gone. The owner wants to make a clearing for wildlife habitat. All trees scaled are over 14"dbh. A little of the birch can be sold and some sawed but most is pretty bumpy probably 3/4 of the birch trees is just plain firewood. So does that 500 ft per cord apply here? I have a firewood processor as well as sawmill. I will use the log to the most valuable use but I need to know how to figure to buy this so I don't loose my @ss. First impression was to walk away but I want to get working with this forester. So I may have to do a couple crappy jobs before I get some good ones

SwampDonkey

Sawyerfortish,

If your gonna buy sawlogs then base the conversion on that, not the pulp and firewood component. I assume the scale is on sawlog volume? If your buying the firewood and pulp volume too, I'de go with 2.2 cords/thousand to be on the safe side. If that doesn't suit the guy, then walk away.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

bull

buy it all as "stumpage cordwood", thats the cheapest way. Sspoke w/ the guy I buy most of my logs from a while back, his name is "Guy" and he said he's paying between  $10 and $18 per cord buying stumpage that would work out to between $20. and $36. per 1000 bfd........  Then pull the good sawlogs and put the rest thru the processor!! there's money to be had

Jeff

500 feet a cord is the commonly used average you will get out of sound sawlogs of mixed size. You wont get anything out of a cord of firewood but firewood. 

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

oakiemac

This is a good and timely topic for me. One of my main log suppliers is really just a large tree service outfit but he gets all kinds of logs. Lots of big stuff because he has a crane truck and many bucket trucks. Anyways he  has deciced that he is just going to cut everything up for firewood. He gets good sawlogs (yeah metal can be a problem), Oak, cherry, poplar, ash, soft maple ect. I hate to see them all go into the fire wood pit. I have been trying to convince him that he will get more money from the lumber then from fire wood but I didn't have a way of converting one to the other.
So now I'm going to talk to him and tell him that if I buy oak at $300-400/MBF that will equal $140-200 per cord and he doesn't have to do any splitting or such. Certainly it would pay much better for nicer woods like cherry, hard maple or walnut.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Jeff

I would make sure you are using that very wide conversion there because the 500 feet is a number used to estimate actual sawn lumber, not for converting one measure of volume estimate into another volume estimate.

500 feet is 500 actual board feet. Not in doyle, not in scribner, not in international.  Sure you can use it as a very general comparison to show a point, but certainly not for buying or selling.  You need to make a direct measurment and pay on that. Either in cords, or by a log scale using one of the rules, but never measure with one, then convert to the other to get figures.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

SwampDonkey

I'de have to agree with Jeff. But, everyone and there dog seems to want to convert just about every unit of measure from one to the other. If the mill buys on tons(tonnes) they want cords.  If the mill scales veneer in thousands, how many cords is that? Hey, the mill scaled it in these units and I need cords because that's the units I pay the cutters in my crew with. To me, if I'm told the scale in tons or tonnes or whatever I know what it means without converting, I can picture it in  my mind. Surprising with some guys that have bought and sold wood to local mills all their lives and they still have to convert from one unit to another. When ever we managed woodlots and drew up stumpage agreements we listed out the units of scale used and the stumpage rate in each.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

Sawyer

I'd look to sawing ties from most of the stock.  Birch is moving pretty good right now.  Can't say the same red oak.  The bumps might not mean defect.  If you want to find cord, cu ft, or ton volume in a tree, try this calculator: 

http://www.timberbuyer.net/pulp.htm

Oakiemac

If you look at the calculators, try the log weight one.  It comes up with a cubic foot volume.  You might be able to use that with coming up with how much firewood a certain log would produce.  You won't need 128 cu ft/cd.  Plug in your numbers and see where your breakeven point is at.   Develop some sort of spreadsheet for the tree guys and see if it sticks.   
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Buzz-sawyer

Sawyer
I am unsure about your area, but here cutting ties out of that type wood is hands down the smart thing to do for several reasons
1) ease of production
2) profitability
We can buy that stuff for 4-9 cents bdft doyle, and cut and resell for .48 cents....you can make a little especially if someone is hungry enough to cut and deliver it to the mill :D :D
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Sawyerfortyish

Ron & buzz I don't really have a tie market but I do have a market for dunnage and skid material and even some crash decking for demolition. I will make the most out of a tree that I can.   I don't usally figure firewood being worth anything  But this job has a lot of trees that can go either way. Nobody else has gotten back to the forester. So i'll have to think about what kind of $ value to put on this job if I decide to take it on. I have other jobs to look at that I know I can get the kind of timber i need and make some money.

Ron Wenrich

Koppers is about 130 mile from Stillwater.  They pay $19/tie for mixed hdwd plus shipping. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Andy Mack

Hi guys

Being that I'm from down-under,  we use cubic metres for timber volume.  (I did look up the metric conversion, 1 cubic metre = 35.3 cubic feet)

Can somebody tell what is a board foot ? and / or in what context is it used?   ??? ??? ???

Andrew

Ron Wenrich

A board foot is a measure of lumber that has a measure of 1/12 of a cu ft.  To figure out board footage in lumber, you take the thickness (in inches) x the width (in inches) x the length (in feet)/12.  It is the standard in the US. 

Hardwoods are sawn usually to the quarter inch.  So, a piece of 4/4 is actually a 1" board.  But, we have to allow for shrinkage, so they are actually sawn about 1 1/8".

Softwoods are nominal where a 2" piece is more like 1 1/2" after drying and planing. 

For logs, you have to figure how much lumber will come out of it.  There have been several systems developed, but the most popular are Doyle, Scribener, and International 1/4" scale.  Some guys will also buy by the ton.  Of course, the values for any log will vary depending on the scale used.

For trees, just add up the expected logs from the tree.  Formulas have been developed.  Look at the Forum Extras in the upper right hand corner, and you can see several calculators we have for determining volume for logs, lumber and trees.

All in all, its an antiquated system which won't be changed any time soon.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Thank You Sponsors!