Timber framing as a business

[JoeyLowe]

Jim and I have been discussing whether or not anyone would be interested in participating in threads about the business aspect of timber framing.  Jim suggested that the Guild website would be a good place since more business-types frequent that site.  He also mentioned that the Timber Frame Business Council would be a good place to go to.  Jim also stated that he would not mind us using this forum as a place to gather and compare ideas too.

I decided to take Jim's advice and I joined the business council.  From what I saw, it appears to be a great organization and they do offer a lead generation service.  One word of caution though.  Evidently, the same leads are sent out to every member so the inquiring mind gets bombarded with information from all members.  I think they indicated they are working to resolve that issue.  The other disappointment that I observed was their forum had less than 5 messages in total.  Not much participation I think.  I did go to the Guild and I haven't posted anything there yet, but I intend to.  I thought I would start here first.

Are any of yall currently in the business of timber framing?

Would any of you be interested in sharing your thoughts on your business?  Generally speaking, anything you are doing now that works or doesn't work.

Just curious??

[Doc]

I can't speak from a business standpoint, but trying to get something like a timber home business going down here might be difficult. I have considered it, but from the no experience in timber framing, to no management experience in the construction field I would think it might be an undertaking. Finding someone who isn't going to run you out of money on logs alone would seem to be a problem in and of itself.

I will be watching this thread with great interest. I hope one of you guys can make it happen. I will be looking to see how it works out, and may take it up after I get my skills up, and make some contacts in the business myself.

Doc

[Jim_Rogers]

About that lead service.
A friend of mine, who has started a timber frame company near me, suggested I contact some of the leads he received as we could design and build the frame the customer needed.
During a discussion with the customer by phone, I asked if he had received any other emails or calls from other companies.
He told me he had but was not going to buy something made on the west coast and pay the trucking to have it brought to New England. And that he wanted to go with the local guys.
Although many companies may get the same leads from the service, the customer will decide who they want to do business with based on many reasons.
You could respond to those that are local to you, only or to all of them. It depends on how you want to do business, and where you want to do business.
Joey:
I wasn't aware of a forum at the business council site.
Do you have to be a member to use it?

Jim Rogers

[JoeyLowe]

Hey Doc:

Logs aren't a problem here in East Texas but getting people to recognize this form of building is.  I view it as an educational process.  Once they learn about it and or see it, then the sale becomes a little easier. 

Jim:

I'll find out for you.  I know that you have to go to the members site first, but you also have to register there too.  It appears that the forum registration is separate from joining.

[Doc]

We have so many stick frame builders here that they are going broke trying to fight each other off, and charging more by the day.

Like I said before, I will follow this thread with great interest. I may buy a small piece of land at some point in the future when I have done my own, and build one to sell, and see how that goes over, but we will see what happens withyou guys first.

I still have alot to learnabout too many other things revolving around all of this first.

Doc

[JoeyLowe]

Hey Doc:

Too many isn't always better, eh. 

I was really surprised by the lack of participation on the business council forum.  There appears to be many users registered on the forum, but there only a total of five threads and I started one of them.  I guess they aren't too interested in participating in conversation.

Jim:

You do have to be a member to access the forum, but if that is your only reason for joining, I wouldn't bother.  No participation.  A friend I have in Kansas, builds on average, 2 frames a month.  These frames are typically 2 story and average 3500 SF.  He builds primarily in the midwest but has gone as far west as California and spends a lot of time in Virginia and Tn.  Guess it is all in what the customer wants.  Some won't pay for the shipping and others want a local contact.  Still others buy because of the company image.

I'm really surprised that timber framing doesn't have a larger presence here in Texas.  Granted there are two companies located here that stay pretty busy and according to other sources, many outside companies build in Texas.

Knowing that many states have contractor/builder licensing requirements, I imagine that alone would deter alot of out-of-state builders from venturing out of their backyards.  Here in Texas, we just started requiring builders to register all of their projects with the state and requiring the builder to adhere to certain warranty language. 

[logman]

I am also trying to get a timber frame business going here on the Eastern
Shore of Maryland.  I don't have much choice if I want to do timber framing,
there aren't any timber framing companies close by to work for and I can't
relocate at this time so if I want to do this I have to try and start a
business.  This area isn't exactly a hotbed of timber framing either.  Most
people get it confused with pole barns or log cabins.  I also joined the
TFBC and have answered a few of the leads concentrating mainly on the
more local ones, which are few.  Joey, I'd like to see a copy of your
contract if possible.  I have been using a standard proposal form.
I too would appreciate any help in getting a business started. 

[TN_man]

Doc,
There is timberframing going on here in the southeast also. Just within the Knoxville area there are three companies that I know of. Sauter Timber (a small german company that does c-n-c work), Blue Heron Timberworks ( which is a small company that still does it with hand tools and is mostly residential I believe) and Hearthstone (which is a big company that does log homes as well). There may be more. And as Joey said, other companies come in to Tn. to do jobs. I would like to get into the business doing small frames for homes or barns, but I am not all up to speed in the design and drawing end of it. I could probably be alright if I just built simular designs over and over, but that would probably not take me very far. Check your area, there may be more companies and interest then you are aware of and if there is not that may be a good thing so you could start it with little competition for business. :P

[JoeyLowe]

Hey Logman:

Send me your email address and I'll shoot you a copy of the contract.  There are alot of important issues that you need to address.  For example who provides the electricity on site and who pays the bill.  Nevermind about who delivers the porta potty.

Jeff is absolutely correct about a lot of interest in the south.  I'm getting inquiries left and right.  Design is definitely a factor.  As Jim said, you have to give the customer what they want or they won't buy.  With the many qualified drafters/designers available, matching a customer's needs and wants isn't too difficult.

[Jim_Rogers]

Joey:
If you don't mind, could you shoot me a copy also?
Jim Rogers

[JoeyLowe]

Hey Jim:

No problem.  Same disclaimer applies.

[TGB]

Joey, if you wouldn't mind, could you send me a copy as well.

thanks, Tom

[TGB]

I'm thinking of getting into the business on the small scale side of it, (barns, garages, and carraige houses).  My questions is, where do those of you in business get your timbers from. I've got the space, and the drafting end covered, but I don't have the timbers. I'm not looking for your personal suppliers but in general where do most of you get your timber.

Tom

[JoeyLowe]

Lots of requests for the old contract going on here.  I have it in pdf format and in word format.  I'm asuming that yall want it in the word format.

As for my source of logs, I work with a couple of tree service types and small loggers.  I have standing orders for SYP in various lengths but they all must have a top of 18" or larger.  As such, I take delivery of 12-15 tons every 3-4 days.  I don't have any problem moving this amount.  For other species, I place an order with the tree guys and they usually deliver within 10 days, weather permitting.  I'm currently paying $55/ton for premium SYP.  Red Oak is much cheaper at $22/ton.  Go figure that one out. 

[ARKANSAWYER]

  I do 2 or 3 frames a year, does that count?   I make my own timbers and pegs or connectors.   I think that I will keep it at about that level.
ARKANSAWYER

[TN_man]

Arky,
Do you design your frames to what your customers want or do you have your customers choose from a variation of one one main type of frame design? I think I would like to do about what you are doing. Certainly would like to meet up with you some time and learn from you.

[Jim_Rogers]

TGB:
There are several ways to find "timber suppliers" in your area.
First of all, it's here, at the forestry forum site. If you use the "find a sawmill" or "find a sawyer" option at the top right hand side of each page you might just locate someone near you.
Where are you located?
Another way to find a timber supplier is to go to the TFG home page and click on the resource guide icon. Follow the links to the search page and enter timber suppliers and you state and see who's listed with them.
Also, you can use woodfinder.com. This is a search engine that may list some suppliers in your area.
Maybe, also, woodcentral.com  or woodweb.com
There are lots of places to look.
Including using the "find a sawyer" option from woodmizer. Call them at their 800# and ask the operator for the "find a sayer" option and she'll contact you with someone who can help you. You tell them you're zip code and you'll get a list of all who have registered with them.
And there are also, some other sawmill manufacturers who have such list (I believe).
Good luck with your research.
Jim Rogers

[Doc]

Joey, I want a copy of that contract as well. this is getting interesting really quick....

I have a ways to go before I could even consider doing one for someone else, but this is still interesting to say the least.

Doc

[ARKANSAWYER]

TN-Man
  I am a 5th generation nail bender and lerned some of my timber framing from my GrandPa before he died.  I studied civil engineering in college and have a good dose of common sense which I believe helps more then any thing else. 
  Most of the time I get a floor plan and design the frame from there.  Most of my structures are under 1500 sqft and of simple design.  I saw out the frame from their logs or mine or a mixture.  Dried in is about all I do.  They do the interior finish, wiring, plumbing and so on.  We do not have any real building codes here and are pretty much free to do what ever is safe.

[TGB]

Jim, thanks for the info. I found a sawyer only 20 miles from my house who looks like he could help me with getting a supply of timbers. Now that I've found a souce of wood, what should I expect to pay for timber?  I plan on using white pine. I know when it comes to lumber prices there are a lot of variables that come into play, but what would be a ball park figure?.....anyone? My potential supplier buys logs and cuts them using a woodmizer. I don't know if that makes it cheaper or more expensive than buying from a larger full scale lumber mill.

P.S.  I've been on the forum for about a month now and want to say its a great place to find answers to questions I know I could not get anywhere else. Everybody is so willing to help each other; great team atmosphere; real-world answers from real people who are either making a living at this or enjoy it as a hobby. Just wanted to say thanks.

Tom

[JoeyLowe]

To those who requested a copy of my contract, it has been sent, with the exception of Doc.  I don't have his email address.  I will be out of town until Saturday night at a Dallas Builder's show.  Will try to check messages at least once a day, but no guarantees.  The contract is pretty self-explanatory.  The most important part of this contract and any contract for that matter, is the addendum.   That area is where you leave the legal mumbo-jumbo behind and spell out what you are going to do and what your customer is going to do.  I leave my contract template blank for my specific responsibilities until after I have had several meetings with the client to develop a clear understanding of they are wanting.

One way of doing is to use a questionnaire developed by a very experienced timber framer and used to solicit answers for questions that will appear during the design phase.  I have a copy of this questionnaire and I be glad to share it with you if interested, but you will have to wait until this weekend.  I was given a copy of the questionnaire while attending a timber frame design school a couple of months ago.  It basically gets the prospective client to thinking about how they want the frame to function and the appearance of the frame.

One other note, I wonder what the average cost of a timber frame (not enclosed) runs on SF basis in other parts of the country.  Here in east Texas, a southern yellow pine frame can be as cheap as $50/sf or as much as $200/sf depending on other species used and the types of joinery required.  SIPS are running about $20/sf here.

[TN_man]

Arky,
Around here all we have is a septic inspection. There is not a market for contractors to come in and build on speculation. They are all building for custom. Do you use your own house as a model home?

[Jim_Rogers]

Tom;
I have no idea what area of the country you are in as you haven't filled out the location section on your personal profile.
So, it's hard to say what you should expect to pay for white pine timbers. Prices can vary from region to region and from mill to mill in each region.
If you wanted to compare prices get quotes from several mills in your area. That's about all I can tell you about comparing prices.
Also, make sure he understand to box heart the timbers and that the are grade 2 or better. If he doesn't understand either one of these, don't use him and get someone who does.
Or teach him how to cut box heart timbers and how to grade lumber.
Jim Rogers

[TGB]

Sorry about that. I'm from the U.P. of Michigan and we have a lot of timber up here as far as pine goes. Hope that helps a little. Your're right, I should just call around but if anyone has an idea I would appreciate it

Tom

[Jim_Rogers]

The thing you have to think about when planning a timber frame business is: "What do you want to do?"
Do you want to provide your clients with a custom build home, ready to move into, called a turn key sale?
Or do you just want to cut and erect the frame?

If you are going into the turn key type of business then you may have to get a general contractor's license, if your state requires you to have one in order to construct homes.

Several timber frame companies in my area, just cut frames. They have a shop and buy the timbers and cut the frames. When complete they erect the frame on the customers site and foundation. That's it.

The customer has a general contractor finish the rest.

Some also help or erect the sips, some do not.

So, in your business planning you have to decide: "what am I going to do?" Or "what do I want to do?"

And base your business plans and organization on that.

There is a lot to think about.

Jim Rogers